#1886241 - 02/06/08 07:29 AM
How will we buy music?
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DonaldM
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I'm flying to New York today and the inflight mag for NWA had an intesting article about the fast changing way people are buying music. The article was focused on how the internet and technology have all but killed the major labels and music stores and how CD's are becoming more and more irrelevant in the age of instant download.
Prince (remember him?) gave away his latest CD for free as an insert in a British tabloid, bypassing all the usual channels. He said it was a marketing move.
New websites are cropping up all over the place and everyone is trying to figure out how to make money from music without ever actually selling the music. Ads, other services, etc are whay people are paying for.
So, that got me thinking, what do you all think here? What do you think will be the way musicians make money off their music in the future? How will it be distributed? Who will profit and who will lose?
Thoughts anyone? (dumb question)
Donald M
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#1886323 - 02/06/08 09:38 AM
Re: How will we buy music?
[Re: DonaldM]
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miroslav
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What do you think will be the way musicians make money off their music in the future? How will it be distributed? Who will profit and who will lose?
A lot of people think this new paradigm is really good for musicians...and how it will usher in a huge wave of live band opportunities, and that recorded music will be nothing more than a teaser to get you to come to the live shows.
Yeah...OK...good luck making any money going down that path!
Music will be SO devalued...that few live bands will be worth any more than the FREE downloads that most anyone can obtain...and why would the bar/club owners pay for live when they will have an unlimited "internet jukebox"...possibly for free???
Only a few bands will make money...the rest will be getting nickel and dime for their efforts...AND...their recorded music will be just as unprofitable 'cuz they gave most of it away for free...... 
I know a lot of people keep dreaming of some BIG watershed of "good times" for musicians once the record companies are crushed down to nothing...but I think those people are in for a rude surprise....time will tell.
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miroslav - miroslavmusic.com"Just because it happened to you, it doesn't mean it's important."
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#1886608 - 02/06/08 03:58 PM
Re: How will we buy music?
[Re: miroslav]
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Kramer Ferrington III.
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Music will be SO devalued...that few live bands will be worth any more than the FREE downloads that most anyone can obtain...and why would the bar/club owners pay for live when they will have an unlimited "internet jukebox"...possibly for free???
Well, hopefully, a live band will be more entertaining than some recorded tracks, and people will still enjoy going to watch music being performed. Not saying it will happen, mind, but that's what SHOULD happen.
The album as a concept, however, is probably toast. Which is not surprising because it's a bit of a recent development anyway: if you look at old albums from the 1950s, they were really collections of singles. The concept of an album as an entity in itself didn't take off until the mid 1960s.
Personally, I think that the only part of the puzzle that's missing is some foolproof way of copy protecting music. If there was such an animal, there'd be no reason why record companies couldn't simply work as download servers.
I think however, that there will always be room for record companies simply because someone has to act as an arbiter of taste. It's easy enough to say that bar-owners can just download a bunch of stuff from the net, but really, bar owners have too much on their plate already. There will always be room for people that cherry-pick music for a living.
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#1887181 - 02/07/08 02:37 PM
Re: How will we buy music?
[Re: Kramer Ferrington III.]
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Danzilla
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It's simple supply side economics. We have lowered the price of musical instruments; and even recording, reproduction & basic distribution (i.e. internet) so that just about anyone can afford to make some sort of music. Which is great, for those who wish to express themselves through music. However, that means that everyone has a much smaller piece of the pie, which has shrunk anyway due to economic situation in general. Huge supply, less demand, cost of buying music comes down to the point that for most artists, it's just an expensive hobby, not a livelihood.
Not that there's anything wrong with that.
There still is opportunity for the "right" act/song to come along and get people's attention and make a bigger profit than the rest. Some of the marketing aoutlet is controlled by record companies, "the man", but as they are seeing that is slipping. Now it takes creative marketing, not just creative music, to shake things up & make money.
"Personally, I think that the only part of the puzzle that's missing is some foolproof way of copy protecting music. If there was such an animal, there'd be no reason why record companies couldn't simply work as download servers."
I agree with that; but technology being as maleable as it is, and people always looking for something for free, that's a tough thing. I know that Sony had certain non-copy codes on a few albums, and people got outraged and sued and they had to remove them. So that's a tough thing to pull off. Maybe if they had put a big sticker saying "you can only copy this 3 times" would have eased people's nerves?
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#1887258 - 02/07/08 04:30 PM
Re: How will we buy music?
[Re: Danzilla]
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Kramer Ferrington III.
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There still is opportunity for the "right" act/song to come along and get people's attention and make a bigger profit than the rest.
Oh, definitely.
And I think that the whole Internet thing keeps very quiet about a very important fact: there's loads and loads of crap out there. Or that there's lots of bands whose recorded output is not bad, but simply can't cut it live and so on and so forth.
Just because everybody can now be heard by somebody doesn't mean that everybody is the next big thing.
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#1887493 - 02/08/08 05:09 AM
Re: How will we buy music?
[Re: Kramer Ferrington III.]
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Joe Muscara
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Is there a market for anything besides the next big thing? I tend to think that's a paradigm we need to get away from. Most people never come anywhere near that, even when record companies were good or big or whatever. Isn't it smarter to find your own way and make a decent living through, dare I say it, hard work? I've seen some artists do this, and it seems to work for them. It's not easy, though, and I'm sure that's why people want to be the next Big Thing, because they think that will be easier.
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#1887506 - 02/08/08 05:58 AM
Re: How will we buy music?
[Re: Joe Muscara]
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Kramer Ferrington III.
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I think The Next Big Thing, as a concept, plays on people's snobbish need for one-upmanship.
To know what or who The Next Big Thing is means that one is on top of the trends, perhaps even command the trends.
You'll notice that there's no glory in identifying the CURRENT big thing. Any peasant with a radio can do that  The trick is to spot the Next Big Thing before they become the current big thing.
It doesn't even matter whether your predictions were accurate, because that whole wistful "could've been bigger than the Beatles" thing is also a pretty cool thing to show off to other rock snobs.
Edited by Kramer Ferrington III. (02/08/08 06:00 AM)
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#1887557 - 02/08/08 07:23 AM
Re: How will we buy music?
[Re: Kramer Ferrington III.]
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miroslav
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I don't think it's just about wanting to be the "Next Big Thing" for ego gratification...though for some it may be.
The way the music biz was, is and will be...you just can't live well enough off of it UNLESS you at least get close to the "NBT".
Yeah...there's some guys out there who DIY-ed it, and are doing pretty good, but it is very few, and it seems most of those artists were at one time with some major record Co....that's how they broke out.
Really...how many CDs do you think you need to sell…and CAN sell…on your own via CD Baby (or whatever)...in order to live fairly comfortable and not be the "starving musician"...?
And how many live gigs per week do you need to do in order to quit that day job. and have more than just enough to cover you expenses and a few beers at the end of the night?
There are those few that mange to get it all wired up...but it is a very small percentage when you consider how MANY new homebrewed artists/musicians are out there trying.
I would love to live as comfortably (or a little better) than I am living now with my day job...by just doing music. I’ve wanted to do that for a long time...but it's not as simple/easy as it seems.
How many can even make typical "middle class" incomes with their music alone...?
So you either do the "starving musician" thing...or go for the "Next Big Thing"...or something close.
I feel that this new virtual music reality will not make it any easier for any majority of musicians to live comfortably...never mind being the "NBT".
At least with the old music biz systems...you potentially could get a real shot at something if you opened the right doors.
Now there's less and less doors to open...everyone is kinda' on their own.....
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#1888009 - 02/08/08 05:25 PM
Re: How will we buy music?
[Re: miroslav]
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Kramer Ferrington III.
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At least with the old music biz systems...you potentially could get a real shot at something if you opened the right doors.
Now there's less and less doors to open...everyone is kinda' on their own.....
Yeah, well... I dunno, when I was a gigging musician back in the 1980s and young enough to apply to be the NBT, the way it worked was that you...
released your own single or casette out of your own pocket. You distributed it yourself, to the extent that you could.
If the single sold well enough then, with a bit of luck, you would be approached by some tiny record company operating out of somebody's garage. They usually didn't do much for you, and you still had to finance your own records but they had ways of giving your next single wider distribution, maybe in other cities. Sometimes, in some extreme cases, the small record label actually financed product, if you were a proven seller.
You stuck with the small, independent label for a while and, if all your singles sold consistently, you COULD catch the eye of a major and THAT's when you finally came on the radar as far as Joe Public was concerned. And if you were very very lucky, somebody at the major (or its subsidiary) pushed your record and got it airplay and so on. Otherwise you were stuck with a contract binding you to a company that couldn't be bothered marketing you.
So, from my POV, things haven't changed a heck of a lot. The Internet gives you a much easier distribution model, but then again, EVERYBODY's using the same distribution channels, so the trick now is to stand out from the crowd.
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#1888959 - 02/10/08 06:46 PM
Re: How will we buy music?
[Re: Kramer Ferrington III.]
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DonaldM
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Well, certainly some interesting thoughts all around. One positive thing I see in the diversity available through the internet is that some big label producer no longer has the power to "make or break" some musician or band. The internet allows any musician to by-pass that process and go directly to the people, so to speak. If enough people like it, they tell their friends and a following will ensue.
On the other hand, without the "big label" contract, it is no doubt tougher to find a way to make $$$ off your music. With everyone used to downloading whatever they want, whenever they want, at virtually no cost, how to do you create a product that people will actully want to pay for? And how do you collect? And how do you keep person #1, even if they paid for it, from file sharing it with 2 dozen of his/her closest friends, cutting the money flow to the musician?
The trick will be to find out what it is that people will be willing to pay for where music delivery is concerned. WIll it be search services that deliver only the kind of music you want? Will it be some sort of i-radio that plays only the music you want to hear, compiles your playlists for you, etc etc? What will be people actually pay for? Whatever that is, it seems unlikely that people will be willing to actually pay for the music itself, or more accurately BY itself, for much longer.
Whoever can figure out how to capitalize on music with internet, stands to make big bucks.
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Music is life...everything else is details!
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#1889101 - 02/10/08 11:45 PM
Re: How will we buy music?
[Re: DonaldM]
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Kramer Ferrington III.
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On the other hand, without the "big label" contract, it is no doubt tougher to find a way to make $$$ off your music.
There's an interesting article here
http://archive.salon.com/tech/feature/2000/06/14/love/print.html
where Courtney Love explains where the $$$ actually go. It's real eye-opening reading, but having never gotten to the stage she's describing, much less in an American context, I cannot vouch for the accuracy of what she says. Maybe some of you guys..?
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#1892593 - 02/16/08 01:13 AM
Re: How will we buy music?
[Re: miroslav]
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Kramer Ferrington III.
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It means: "yeah, yeah, sure, sure, whatever".
I made no comments about her gig. I was talking about her as a person....so I'm not sure why the need for the "your level of expertise" wisecrack... 
Why the wisecrack? Well, because when someone rejects a priori whatever another person says, regardless of the subject, I think it's rather silly. And blinkered.
But since you brought it up... Like we all always say around here...there's a LOT of crap out there that's selling and touring... ...but that don't mean it's any good. 
I believe you're missing the point, or being deliberately disingenous.
Whether her music is any good or not, we were talking about the mechanics of selling stuff, not the stuff itself. Personally, I'm not interested in Britney Spears' music, but I bet she'd know quite a bit about how the music industry works.
In this case, Courtney Love explains where a million dollars goes and why so many musicians are broke even after earning what would normally be considered huge amounts of money. I was curious as to whether anybody could confirm or refute what she actually says, instead of having a knee-jerk reaction.
Oh well... 
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#1892628 - 02/16/08 05:11 AM
Re: How will we buy music?
[Re: Kramer Ferrington III.]
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Joe Muscara
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Personally, I'm not interested in Britney Spears' music, but I bet she'd know quite a bit about how the music industry works.
I would guess that she, like a lot of artists, would not know, because she is so manipulated by it. She's too inside to see it. However, this lines up with what Courtney says, as well as what Byrne said in his now-infamous Wired article, which I'm surprised hasn't been posted in this thread yet. Has anyone compared Love's article with Byrne's? IIRC, they said much of the same things, but I haven't had the chance to compare them directly.
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#1892652 - 02/16/08 07:19 AM
Re: How will we buy music?
[Re: Kramer Ferrington III.]
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miroslav
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Why the wisecrack? Well, because when someone rejects a priori whatever another person says, regardless of the subject, I think it's rather silly. And blinkered.
Are you saying that you always pay attention to what everyone has to say without considering their persona or their motivations...???
She was (and maybe still is) a smack junkie....especially back then in 2000 when she was mouthing off (which is what she does best).
So YEAH...I can choose to reject a priori whatever she says. 
And I still don't see how the "your level of expertise" wisecrack is relative...?
It's not like I was rebutting specifically what she was saying about the music industry...I am just rejecting her on a personal level (my choice)...and not on the validity of her music industry comments.
Oh well...
Personally, I'm not interested in Britney Spears' music, but I bet she'd know quite a bit about how the music industry works.
Mmmmm, I doubt it...but even if she does, and she spoke up about stuff...I'm sure everyone around here would stop dead in their tracks to hear what she has to say!
Yeah...right.
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miroslav - miroslavmusic.com"Just because it happened to you, it doesn't mean it's important."
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#1892678 - 02/16/08 08:13 AM
Re: How will we buy music?
[Re: miroslav]
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Joe Muscara
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Even a junkie can be right about things.
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#1892681 - 02/16/08 08:21 AM
Re: How will we buy music?
[Re: Joe Muscara]
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miroslav
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Yeah...I know what you mean.
I've often heard some of the most profound things come out of the mouths of the biggest drunkards...BUT...their credibility just doesn't ever seem valid.
AFA Courtney Love...I never much liked her attitude and style...even before she commented on the state of the music industry.
And while she may have ridden some of that post-Cobain wave for a bit, I really wouldn't call her music carreer and contributions "sizzling"...which may also have prompted he bitching about the state of the music industry.
She has always come off as a very money/fame hungry spoiled b***h...which is where my feelings about her stem from...and once again, lets not to forget that she was (and possibly still is) a smack junkie....
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#1892829 - 02/16/08 03:15 PM
Re: How will we buy music?
[Re: miroslav]
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Kramer Ferrington III.
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She has always come off as a very money/fame hungry spoiled b***h...which is where my feelings about her stem from...and once again, lets not to forget that she was (and possibly still is) a smack junkie....
So..? I mean, there's HEAPS of people who were addicted to various drugs back in their day. Clapton, Keef, Miles, Johnny Winter, Jim Morrison,... I've never cared about it much, so I've lost track of how many of them got seriously into the drugs. But there were a fair few of them, I'd say.
And hey, even a stopped clock is right at least twice a day! Again, I'm not really interested in discussing the quality of Courtney Love's music, just whether her perceptions of the music industry are correct or not.
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#1892835 - 02/16/08 03:23 PM
Re: How will we buy music?
[Re: Kramer Ferrington III.]
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miroslav
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Ahhh...I never attempted to discuss her music...OR...her perceptions...
...I was only saying that I didn't care for her long enough to want to hear what she had to say.
And...that still has nothing to do with my "level of expertise".... 
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miroslav - miroslavmusic.com"Just because it happened to you, it doesn't mean it's important."
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#1892929 - 02/16/08 11:33 PM
Re: How will we buy music?
[Re: miroslav]
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Kramer Ferrington III.
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Ok... moving along with this, the David Byrne article is rather interesting. I haven't had a chance to listen to the sidebar .wavs but it's cool that someone has listed the various types of contracts/relationships one can enter into.
I also like the fact that he takes pains to make a difference between the music and the music industry which, as he says, is there to sell CDs regardless of the content.
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#1893078 - 02/17/08 10:00 AM
Re: How will we buy music?
[Re: miroslav]
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Kramer Ferrington III.
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Personally...I do believe that we all must pay the “entry fee” if any opportunity arises...and refusing to give up even a nickel will only diminish the number of nickels you will see in return.
Yeah, but it's not just that. If the record company has a say in everything, then they can actually tell you that they don't like your new record and to go back and make another one, on your own dime. It happens a fair bit. So you're basically constrained to do whatever the record company wants. If you want to change styles, for example, then good luck to you because you may not be allowed to.
And...I also do understand that trying to control all the machinery that goes towards turning a no-name artists into a big-name artist...is no easy task. It takes a lot of knowhow...work...and people.
Not that all those people HAVE the knowhow. There's always the story about how their record company once pressured AC/DC to put out a disco single. Can you imagine anything more likely to wreck that band's career? And yet on paper, it made sense, since it would have netted some quick money. And then, there's ALL those stories about how so-and-so's album was never actively promoted by the label and died in the bargain bins, no matter how good it was.
Sure, a lot of those record company people know a lot more than we do, because promoting and selling records is what they do for a living every day, but a) apparently not all of them are brilliant and b) perhaps it'd be interesting to look at getting a PR person onside rather than let the label do everything.
From David Byrne's article, it sounds like the best option (IMO) would be to license the music to the record company for a limited time, so that you eventually get the rights back.
Mind you, it's probably easier to do that in the indie/underground side of things, where quirky and lo-fi can be desireable qualities. If you are trying to do straight pop, and are hoping to license out your music then you better be as good a producer as Quincy Jones (or whoever), because that's who you're in competition with.
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#1893087 - 02/17/08 10:27 AM
Re: How will we buy music?
[Re: Kramer Ferrington III.]
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miroslav
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From David Byrne's article, it sounds like the best option (IMO) would be to license the music to the record company for a limited time, so that you eventually get the rights back.
Yes....or just don't sign any real long-term contracts with all rights in the hands of the Record Co.
I'm still of the belief that IF you have something the Record Co wants (good music...or a good act)...you STILL have bargaining leverage as long as you don't let your "eyes do all the shopping".
And going into negotiations with some good counsel on your end...I think you can find a workable deal that benefits all. If you are a new artist...IMO it's important to do that.
Then once you've proven yourself...your value goes up, and hopefully, if you signed a short deal...you will be able to negotiate something better afterwards.
Heck...if you DO go big...you can probably renegotiate even existing contracts if you have a good attorney and don't try to outsmart the Record Co's on your own.
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miroslav - miroslavmusic.com"Just because it happened to you, it doesn't mean it's important."
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#1900199 - 02/28/08 03:41 AM
Re: How will we buy music?
[Re: miroslav]
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Kramer Ferrington III.
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Yeah, I've wondered from time to time whether a lot of these "big bad record company" stories come about because a bunch of guys in their early 20s rush into things. I wonder whether older guys wouldn't be better at reading the fine print. Not saying *I* would but, you know...
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#1919121 - 03/30/08 10:43 PM
Re: How will we buy music?
[Re: Kramer Ferrington III.]
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cigarandyak
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we wont be buying music soon enough, it will essentially be a utility, like cable or internet. chances are the cost will be bundled in with something you already pay for, like cell phones, etc.
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