#1882416 - 01/31/08 09:11 AM
analog to digital problems
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eric miller
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i have a scratch(project) studio. a 12 channel analog mixer stereo'd into a tascam digital 8 track. it creates a well rounded recording, but the noise from the mixer is audible with low dynamics. i need the mixer primarily for drum tracks.
i get a great drum sound, i have it set-up to record with correct pan and level. i pretty much hit record and let em go. its convenient and good, but the noise is killing the softer tracks. i need the mixer since the tascam only records 2 tracks at a time.
i know a gate could work, but it'd take away from the room's ambience. the sound is still audible even with headphones into the mixer, so its not bleeding through the tascam's electronics.
is there anything i can do, even modifying the mixer(without damaging the integrity), to control this noise?
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#1882437 - 01/31/08 09:43 AM
Re: analog to digital problems
[Re: eric miller]
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miroslav
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Well..here's the thing....
How loud is the noise relative to the signal....AND....how loud will the noise be relative to ALL the other tracks once they are added?
Heck...I use an analog console and I track to a tape deck before dumping into the DAW...and if I just listen to the silence between the hits/note...yeah, I can hear some background "noise".
You will NEVER get "digital black" type of silence from an analog/tape source, but if you have good signal-to-noise ratios, then when you add all the other tracks and their signals...chances are that inherent noise will "disappear", thanks to the natural masking from the other tracks.
If there are any points in the song where ALL the instruments stop...one of those musical pauses, etc...you can just cut out the noise in that one section, if it is really THAT loud.
Now...If you have your signal up nice and hot going into the mixer...and the output for the mixer has very audible noise...then maybe you just have a crappy mixer, and no amount of S/N will matter....and I doubt you will be able to "upgrade" that mixer to any high-level purity without pretty much building a whole new mixer.
So...step back...check your source/mice levels...check your gain staging at the mixer so that you are putting out a nice hot signal from the mixer to the TASCAM...and also check the TASCAM if it has any Input level settings....like, if it's expecting a +4 level...and you are hitting it with -10 ...then yeah you will screw up your S/N ratio.
But don’t forget about the natural masking that will occur after other tracks are added…otherwise you will make yourself crazy trying to get total silence between the hits/notes…. 
So...what mixer are you using....?
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miroslav - miroslavmusic.com"Just because it happened to you, it doesn't mean it's important."
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#1882562 - 01/31/08 12:18 PM
Re: analog to digital problems
[Re: eric miller]
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audiorulez
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Give us specifics on what analog console and Tascam unit you are using please, and exactly how you interface them, including levels for incoming and outgoing signals and their routing.
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#1882981 - 02/01/08 06:31 AM
Re: analog to digital problems
[Re: audiorulez]
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eric miller
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i keep the signal at unity gain on both machines. i dont need to boost with any gain. the mixer is a beast, im not there right now so i dont know the make/model. its 70's era with removable components.
i guess the masking will have to do. it just drives me nuts hearing the hiss. its not very loud, doesnt register on the master level, but if im recording live with more two instruments and each track in the mixer, it multiplies the hiss.
i guess ill continue to lay the drums in analog to digital, and keep the rest of the instruments in digital.
thanks for your concern.
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#1882997 - 02/01/08 06:50 AM
Re: analog to digital problems
[Re: eric miller]
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Griffinator
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If it doesn't register on the master, don't worry about it.
Edited by Griffinator (02/01/08 06:50 AM)
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#1883039 - 02/01/08 07:38 AM
Re: analog to digital problems
[Re: Griffinator]
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Bill@Welcome Home Studios
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I'm just going to go out on a limb here... are we trying to push to full scale digital? If so, that is where the noise is coming from. Few mixers will give you that kind of (+23 or so..)gain without hiss. Older mixers are probably not going to fare well at this.
I mention this because, like or hate the Tascam gear, their preamps/input stages are usually pretty clean and usually sonically neutral, with the exception of some low-budget cheap plastic pieces that they made in the 80s for easy remote work.
There is also the possibility that the gain staging for the individual channels is askew, showing unity gain at the output but having the gain structure for the individual channels improperly set.
Bill
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"...it's easier than hitting the kids, and almost as much fun..."
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#1885469 - 02/05/08 05:31 AM
Re: analog to digital problems
[Re: eric miller]
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audiorulez
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i keep the signal at unity gain on both machines.
What are you considering unity on the Tascam and your console? As Bill suspects, I too am guessing you're trying to hit 0dbfs on the Tascam with a 0dbu output from the analog console. That would be adding a good 24dbu of gain from the Tascsam inputs.
Please give us specifics on what console, and what Tascam unit you are using.
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#1885583 - 02/05/08 08:24 AM
Re: analog to digital problems
[Re: eric miller]
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eric miller
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the analog mixer is a tascam model 10 a&b.
i havent been to the "studio" since then, so i dont know exactly what the digital tascam is. ill be there later today, then ill let you know.
so if i understand you correctly, the analog mixer may have the gain structure on each individual track already boosted. if i just mix the levels of each input lower, will the signal strength of the noise reduce?
and to make up for the loss of volume, will i have to boost the new digital track during, or after recording? or should i mix the whole recording at low db. and boost it all together during mastering?
i really appreciate the help.
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#1885642 - 02/05/08 09:30 AM
Re: analog to digital problems
[Re: eric miller]
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audiorulez
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Well for starters the mixer is circa 1973. It has all unbalanced outputs, so if you are patching balanced into the digital recorder that's one source of additional noise.
Also, what are the output connections? There is really very little info on this, since it is so old? If the outs are RCA, then they are most likely -10dbV, and if you are connecting them to +4dbu inputs on the digital deck, you have a sensitivity mismatch as well.
You need to find the 0dbu reference of the digital deck, and target the nominal input level to that. It will fall somewhere between -20 and -10dbfs.
However, given the age of the mixer, I suspect it is just noisy. Your best bet is to surf craigslist or e-bay and for a few hundred bucks you can have something far better and much quieter.
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#1885868 - 02/05/08 01:48 PM
Re: analog to digital problems
[Re: audiorulez]
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Griffinator
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Nuff said. Time for a mixer update.
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#1885898 - 02/05/08 02:27 PM
Re: analog to digital problems
[Re: eric miller]
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Bill@Welcome Home Studios
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..so if i understand you correctly, the analog mixer may have the gain structure on each individual track already boosted. if i just mix the levels of each input lower, will the signal strength of the noise reduce?
and to make up for the loss of volume, will i have to boost the new digital track during, or after recording? or should i mix the whole recording at low db. and boost it all together during mastering?
i really appreciate the help.
http://www.livesoundint.com/archives/2004/april/audiobasics.pdf
This should help. Now, you also need to understand the difference between analog zero and full scale digital zero. But let us take one thing at a time.
Bill
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"...it's easier than hitting the kids, and almost as much fun..."
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#1886102 - 02/05/08 09:04 PM
Re: analog to digital problems
[Re: Bill@Welcome Home Studios]
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audiorulez
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Now, you also need to understand the difference between analog zero and full scale digital zero
You need to find the 0dbu reference of the digital deck, and target the nominal input level to that. It will fall somewhere between -20 and -10dbfs.
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#1886507 - 02/06/08 01:40 PM
Re: analog to digital problems
[Re: audiorulez]
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eric miller
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I suspect it is just noisy. Your best bet is to surf craigslist or e-bay and for a few hundred bucks you can have something far better and much quieter.
you wanna buy a tascam model 10?
it has rca outputs.
point of question; what can i do(if anything) to rememedy this?
i am well aware of the overall crappines of this board and its incompatability with the digi. i have no other choice in recording drum tracks right now and my digi recorder has no gate on it.
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#1886540 - 02/06/08 02:12 PM
Re: analog to digital problems
[Re: eric miller]
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miroslav
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A cheap solution will be to hit eBay and grab a Fostex 5030 Line Level converter, which can be had for about $50-$75.
I had three of them and sold one not too long ago.
It's an 8 channel, bidirectional unit...so you can simultaneously convert from/to -10 and +4...and you can also convert unbalanced to balanced via switches on the back.
It also takes RCA connectors for the unbalanced and XLR for the Balanced.
I still use my other two from time to time when interfacing -10/+4 Unbal/Bal gear.
There are other brands (TASCAM makes something similar, Ebtech...etc)...but those Fostex units can usually be had pretty cheap, as most people don't even know what they are for when they see them on eBay. 
The older ones had DIP switches...the newer models had regular switches for changing the configuration.
Here's someone that had three he wanted to unload...but it's from 2006...so, maybe no more.
Just check eBay and do some Googling.....
http://www.adras.com/FS-three-Fostex-5030-8-channel-bal-unbal-units.t6133-173.html
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miroslav - miroslavmusic.com"Just because it happened to you, it doesn't mean it's important."
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#1886598 - 02/06/08 03:29 PM
Re: analog to digital problems
[Re: eric miller]
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audiorulez
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it has rca outputs.
point of question; what can i do(if anything) to rememedy this?
i am well aware of the overall crappines of this board and its incompatability with the digi. i have no other choice in recording drum tracks right now and my digi recorder has no gate on it.
Here's your problem. You're feeding -10dbV to +4dbu, there's over 11db of gain differential.
The solution is to get a mixer with +4dbu outputs. Gating won't solve the issue, the noise will still be there when the gate opens. You need to feed the tascam digital recorder a +4dbu signal, and your noise issues will be solved. For the cost of 8 -10dbV to +4dbu converters, you can buy a console, and not only will you not have the level inbalance, your overall sound will be way, way, better.
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#1886807 - 02/07/08 04:23 AM
Re: analog to digital problems
[Re: miroslav]
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Bill@Welcome Home Studios
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whoah, campers..... many of the Tascam decks, including the DA-38/88/98 series, have RCA -10 inputs. So I don't know that we have really discovered the problem. We need to know WHAT Tascam 8 track.
But I know that if you attempt to push an inexpensive console to deliver 0dBFS levels, you are likely to have hiss.
Bill
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"...it's easier than hitting the kids, and almost as much fun..."
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#1891503 - 02/14/08 09:08 AM
Re: analog to digital problems
[Re: Bill@Welcome Home Studios]
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eric miller
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its a Korg D1200mkII 12-Track. I jsut figured it was a tascam. it has 9 track faders, but the first 6 are each a stereo pair, i.e. track 1 is left; track 2 is right. and the other 3 are both left and right, i.e. track 9 is both left and right.
i guess i said it was an 8 track, but its not.
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#1891604 - 02/14/08 11:14 AM
Re: analog to digital problems
[Re: eric miller]
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miroslav
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Sounds to me like you could spend a little time getting familiar with your gear.
You may find answers to a lot of your quesitons before you even ask them. 
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miroslav - miroslavmusic.com"Just because it happened to you, it doesn't mean it's important."
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