#1877871 - 01/23/08 05:01 AM
Monitors, delta, no mixer
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fb000
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Now that its time time to incorporate some moniotrs....
Am I safe running straight from one of the delta rca outs to a pair of active monitors?
Or do I need to send everything through a mixer and then to monitors via xlr?
In other words will there be a difference in quality by using the delta rca outs to supply the monitors as opposed to xlr coming from a mixer?
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#1877943 - 01/23/08 07:04 AM
Re: Monitors, delta, no mixer
[Re: fb000]
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Griffinator
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Yes, there will, straight from the card is optimal - no reason to make extra stops at unnecessary interim devices like a mixer.
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#1877974 - 01/23/08 07:43 AM
Re: Monitors, delta, no mixer
[Re: Griffinator]
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audiorulez
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You can definitely do this, however, since you would have only software control of the volume, it would be convenient to have a monitor controller, such as the Mackie Big Knob, Samson C-Control or other such device for quick volume changes, and the ability to monitor other sources as well.
A small mixer can serve the same purpose, however the audio quality of the above devices are IMHO far better/transparent than a cheap mixer.
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#1877979 - 01/23/08 07:47 AM
Re: Monitors, delta, no mixer
[Re: Griffinator]
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miroslav
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The only thing to consider is if you want to have more flexibility with the Delta RCA output...and external level control.
If you go straight to the monitrs...you have to control your monitor level from the Delta (not sure if it has it's own mixer applet) or from the computer/DAW...and, you can't route that signal anywhere else.
By hitting the mixer...you might have more routing options, and also a real level control knob instead of software....
...but it will work both ways.
I have all my A/D/A Inputs/Outputs going to the patchbay...along with everything else...and that gives me the most flexibility in signal routing.
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#1878004 - 01/23/08 08:26 AM
Re: Monitors, delta, no mixer
[Re: miroslav]
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audiorulez
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Patchbays and routing to monitors are two different subjects however. Patchbays are quite convenient, and I also have racks of them, but it's not that the OP is asking about. They want to know the pros/cons of going directly out of their Delta card to powered monitors.
For me, having that hardware knob (which could also be a control surface) to remind me to turn down volume before connecting things, or making sure it's at a low level prior to soloing (or to grab and turn down quick if I forget!!!) is paramount.
Having to mouse/key command volume up/down IMHO is very inconvenient, but YMMV.
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#1878072 - 01/23/08 09:55 AM
Re: Monitors, delta, no mixer
[Re: audiorulez]
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miroslav
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Patchbays and routing to monitors are two different subjects however. Patchbays are quite convenient, and I also have racks of them, but it's not that the OP is asking about. They want to know the pros/cons of going directly out of their Delta card to powered monitors.
Yes...I got that....I was just offering another option. 
I think without fully knowing the whole system setup in his situation, it's hard to say which way is better/worse fro him...which is why I mentioned the patchbay option, as it is the most flexible...IMO.
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miroslav - miroslavmusic.com"Just because it happened to you, it doesn't mean it's important."
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#1878233 - 01/23/08 02:29 PM
Re: Monitors, delta, no mixer
[Re: miroslav]
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audiorulez
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All a patchbay is going to achieve for them is to add another set of connections. Sorry but I don't see the point. Why would you want to route monitors via a patchbay vs directly from either the delta or delta via mixer/controller for hardware volume control?
Call me stupid, but I don't see any point in routing the delta to a patchbay, then to the CR monitors, except to add unnecessary connections.
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#1878248 - 01/23/08 03:08 PM
Re: Monitors, delta, no mixer
[Re: fb000]
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fb000
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My setup mat be different from alot of you all because I am currently only using a fantom and one vocal mic...
I also have another keyboard that I may want to incorporate and possibly add another mic or line in for guitar...but thats later on.
Anyway I was really trying to understand whether or not there will be a loss in quality by connecting to monitors with rca's as opposed to using the other types of connections(cables) i.e. xlr's
What is standard for everyone?
These routing concepts are the hardest to understand without any hands-on.
Wouldn't putting one of these volume control boxes in the path to the monitors degrade the signal?
the delta will ultimately be replaced but I do want to incorporate monitors now. Like I said I'm laying dow the music with the fantom then I track vocals..I work alone or with one vocalist at the most...no bands no multiple vocalists.
After monitors I am leaning toward: better mic, better pres, a/d/a converters and soundcard, then better plug-ins or outboard gear control surface etc..
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#1878361 - 01/23/08 06:02 PM
Re: Monitors, delta, no mixer
[Re: audiorulez]
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miroslav
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Why would you want to route monitors via a patchbay vs directly from either the delta or delta via mixer/controller for hardware volume control?
Well...I can't speak for the OP or anyone else here...but
I have my monitors at the patchbay for the flexibility.
My main monitors are normalled at the patchbay to my mixer’s control room output A, but having them also available at the patchbay, it allows me to use them WITHOUT having to always turn on my mixer.
There are times when I want to go directly from my D/A to the monitors...and there are times when I want to use the mixer...and also there are times when I want to use the monitors for playback from a CD player, or some other device....so yeah, the patchbay makes that very easy and flexible.
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miroslav - miroslavmusic.com"Just because it happened to you, it doesn't mean it's important."
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#1880586 - 01/28/08 08:09 AM
Re: Monitors, delta, no mixer
[Re: miroslav]
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audiorulez
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While I understand why you do this, IMHO for the average user this could be a rather dangerous situation. Patching live monitors, having no easy access gain controls, is a formula for blown monitors, or at least a good jolt in the ears if you don't pay close attention to what you are doing.
Why not just get a monitor controller? There are tons of them for short money with multiple i/o that sound great, or make powering up your mixer simpler. Seems to me a waste of patchbay space and unnecessary connections.
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#1880832 - 01/28/08 02:38 PM
Re: Monitors, delta, no mixer
[Re: miroslav]
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audiorulez
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Understood, but you are not inquiring here, and the OP (no offense to them) may not be as astute to the workings of a studio. Also, no offense, but can you really say you have never in your life played back something a bit too loud and had to reach for the CR volume? Had a bad cable on a phantom mic? A musician accidentally trip over a cable?
Also, if you patch a CD player outs directly to your CR monitors how do you control the volume with no control source inbetween?
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#1880880 - 01/28/08 04:20 PM
Re: Monitors, delta, no mixer
[Re: audiorulez]
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miroslav
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Sure...I've had unexpected levels slap me in the face...but a monitor control device won't guarantee it will never happen.
When switching sources with a monitor control device, you can just as easily have the levels cranked too high on one source, as some sources may have higher outputs than other...and SLAM!...you get knocked on your ass.
So even with a monitor control (which is just a fancy patchbay, anyway)....you still have to watch what you are doing.
Also...my console has/is a monitor control device. That section on the console that’s labeled "Control Room"...has A & B monitor choices...plus, my Main Stereo OUT/IN and also 2-Track IN and EXT stereo IN...are ALL tied into that "Control Room" switching matrix, to which my two sets of monitors are normalled.
So what the heck would I need another monitor control device for?
I think those are mainly for the DAW crowed that has NO mixer options.
And the OP mentioned a mixer...so I will assume that it too has some type of monitor/source matrix.
By having monitors normalled at the patchbay...I have a few additional options for switching for those times when the mixer is not powered up.
I understand what you are saying...but, there was a good amount of logic and planning that went into my patchbay setup...and I think most anyone else that did that would also appreciate and benefit from the options…and be aware of any pitfalls. 
It's all good...and IMO...having more options via patchbay, is better, though a PB may only be worthwhile if you have a lot of gear to tie together....
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#1881096 - 01/29/08 05:11 AM
Re: Monitors, delta, no mixer
[Re: miroslav]
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audiorulez
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there are times when I want to use the monitors for playback from a CD player, or some other device...so yeah, the patchbay makes that very easy and flexible.
Since you didn't answer the question first time around I thought it best to quote the reason for the question. When you circumnavigate your console (with control room controls) how do you control the volume of said CD player?
Also (again) why is it so much trouble to power up your console? I would think this would be a simple process of a power switch, and, since it has CR monitor routing built in (with volume control) that you would always want that option.
External monitor controllers are a lot more than a "fancy patchbay", the big difference is that knob marked volume, which is IMHO a lot more intuitive to grab than the stop button or the patch bay cables when the error happens. The patch bay gives you no ability to control volume, it's just a "fancy cable".
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#1881226 - 01/29/08 08:34 AM
Re: Monitors, delta, no mixer
[Re: miroslav]
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audiorulez
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OK I'm not trying to get you to see anything my way or beating anything to death, I am simply asking questions. Is that no longer allowed here?
Why are you yelling, what is the problem with asking a few simple questions. Nowhere do I say you need to do this or that. Not once have I said what you are doing is wrong, I simply am trying to understand the logic behind your methods, and perhaps give others some insight to it as well.
Miro, we've been down this road too many times. I'm not saying anything negative about you or your methods, I am simply asking questions to get an understanding as to why you choose these methods. Calm down man, no one is attacking you.
Obviously you don't have the need for a monitor control device, since you (mid post) let us know you have a console with these controls built in. Furthermore, once that was clarified I no longer suggested you get one, since it would be moot.
Does the amp to your passive monitors have a single knob for volume? To me it seems silly to change a calibrated amp to adjust cd playback levels when all you need to to is power up your console, which I assume (but don't know for sure) that your CD player routes to the 2 track returns. Most studios won't let you near amps with volume controls once they are calibrated so the volume at a given level is the same on all systems.
Again, I'm not attacking, insulting, or otherwise saying anything is wrong with what you do, I am simply asking questions as to why.
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#1881327 - 01/29/08 10:21 AM
Re: Monitors, delta, no mixer
[Re: audiorulez]
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miroslav
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I'm not yelling...you just seem to be a little hard of hearing. 
I already mentioned the console control room matrix in a previous post...
…maybe you missed it?
You have a way of asking questions where within your questions, you are already implying that something is wrong with the chosen SOP.
I kinda' thought that to a guy like you who has some experience, me just saying I have things hooked up to a patchbay for flexibility purposes, would be rather self explanatory, and no need for lots of questions and confusion.
For a newbie...I would understand why deeper explanations are needed.
And you really seemed rather determined to sell me on the need for a monitor controller device, and that my SOP is inferior...
…it just got a little tiresome after several posts, which is why I said let it go.
I think I’ve explained very clearly how I’m using the monitors/patchbay with the console control room matrix and also without the console powered up....so can we move on to something else now.
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miroslav - miroslavmusic.com"Just because it happened to you, it doesn't mean it's important."
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#1881476 - 01/29/08 02:35 PM
Re: Monitors, delta, no mixer
[Re: miroslav]
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audiorulez
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Again, I understand your need for a monitor controller is moot, and I am not saying you need one.
Again, I'm not saying at all that your way is inferior or wrong.
I completely understand the flexability of a patchbay, however you have failed to explain why you route your control room monitoring through one when other professional studios avoid such unnecessary connections.
What you have failed to answer despite it being posed to you multiple times is why it is so difficult a process to power up your console which doubles as your monitor controller, and instead route through a patchbay, adding what most professionals would consider unnecessary connections in the monitoring chain. That patchbay you seem to use regularly, which, as we know eventually wears on the patchbay points and deteriorates the connection. In all my almost 30 years in hundreds of studios around the world, I personally have never seen the monitor chain routed through a patchbay. I'm not saying your way is wrong, I just am trying to understand why you are doing this. Not how, why.
Like I have said, I understand the how, I'm hoping you would shed some light on the why, but it appears it is too much effort for you, since you claim "it just got a little tiresome after several posts", however not too tiresome to come back insulting me of being "a little hard of hearing" instead of giving a simple answer to simple questions. (Or at least to me they are simple questions, perhaps not to you, that I do not know.)
Thus another one of your little pissing contests. Seriously, this forum would IMHO be far better off if you simply didn't respond than to respond in this manner. You yell, which, since you appear to be ignorant of this, is what typing in caps or bold is in forums or e-mails. You continually insist I am trying to sell you something when I repeatedly remind you I am not. You insult me in saying that I "seem to be a little hard of hearing".
Is there a problem with giving a deeper explanation for any and all that may read this, or are you just trying to be as ass (again) and start shit?
This conversation could have been the beginning of you getting along here with me, instead of yet another pissing contest (that I am sure your rebuttal will be that I started, despite evidence to the contrary). Well, your attitude and demeanor here is obvious, you view yourself as the king of the forum, all bow to King Miro. IMHO that's a pretty poor attitude for someone who claims to be a professional.
Perhaps if you tried....nevermind, you obviously don't want to. So once again we shall "move on to something else", since it is too much effort (like powering up your console) for you to give a simple answer to a simple question.
In the future, I shall refrain from requesting such great effort on your part to share your wisdom and experience here on this public forum about audio, as I wouldn't want to tire you out.
My apologies for any inconvenience, oh Almighty Miro.
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#1881481 - 01/29/08 02:43 PM
Re: Monitors, delta, no mixer
[Re: audiorulez]
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miroslav
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So much for New Year's resolutions.... *sigh*
I've already detailed my monitor/patchbay SOP and the "why" of it...so let's move on to other topics.
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miroslav - miroslavmusic.com"Just because it happened to you, it doesn't mean it's important."
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#1881516 - 01/29/08 03:49 PM
Re: Monitors, delta, no mixer
[Re: miroslav]
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audiorulez
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Apparently that info must have been posted invisibly. Thanks for all your efforts, and better luck with next years resolutions. BTW, it's not to late for you to try again, if it's not too much effort.
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#1881721 - 01/30/08 06:21 AM
Re: Monitors, delta, no mixer
[Re: audiorulez]
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miroslav
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For anyone who missed my explanations of how I have my monitors/patchbay set up and why I do it that way...I've gone back and highlighted those sections in red to make them easier to locate.
And I will just add that using the patchbay, really does make it very flexible and simple...as it's just two patch cords.
If anyone needs more detailed info...PM me....as this thread has been taken off course…..
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miroslav - miroslavmusic.com"Just because it happened to you, it doesn't mean it's important."
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#1881784 - 01/30/08 08:26 AM
Re: Monitors, delta, no mixer
[Re: miroslav]
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audiorulez
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OK so we got: (sorry it was too much trouble for me to bother with the red text )
My main monitors are normalled at the patchbay to my mixer’s control room output A, but having them also available at the patchbay, it allows me to use them WITHOUT having to always turn on my mixer..
OK so we established it's too much trouble for you to turn on the mixer, but not to move patchbay cables, yet you never answered the question why it's so difficult to turn on your mixer, thus making available the consoles built in control room section, but instead choose to add additional connections via a patchbay (that wears from use).
my console has/is a monitor control device. That section on the console that’s labeled "Control Room"...has A & B monitor choices...plus, my Main Stereo OUT/IN and also 2-Track IN and EXT stereo IN...are ALL tied into that "Control Room" switching matrix, to which my two sets of monitors are normalled.
Yes we understand you have a CR section in your console, but this doesn't explain why you feel the need to route your CR monitors to a patchbay rather than simply patch them on the CR section outputs of your console.
When I do go CD-to-monitors....I use my passive monitors...so the amp that drives them is right there, and it has calibrated volume controls
Again, no explaination of why you route your CR monitors via the patchbay.
MY CONSOLE HAS A KNOB for controlling the levels that I send to any of the monitors via the BUILT IN CONTROL ROOM MATRIX which is EXACTLY what your "monitor control" device does.
Precisely why you would always use the CR monitor section of your console rather than route through a patchbay and bypass this. Again there is no reasoning given as to why, only what you do.
Guess we will never know. Must be some big government secret. Do you live in Area 51?
Just to clarify, the question on the floor is, why do you feel routing through the extra connections of the patchbay rather than using the CR section of your console is superior quality? Is there an issue with the quality of your console CR outputs? wouldn't the additional patch points, which wear every time you patch them, be more detrimental to the audio chain?
Just trying to make the question as simple as I can, in hopes you can trouble yourself to answer it.
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