#1826408 - 10/18/07 01:20 AM
mic preamps
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tjryan
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I'm looking for a great 8 channel mic preamp in the just under a $1000.00 range. I want to record drums, bass and guitar live off the floor on a Roland 1680. Any suggestions. i've been looking at the following.
1/Mackie Onyx 800R 8-Channel Preamp
2/PreSonus DigiMAX 96 8-Channel Microphone Preamp
3/PreSonus M80 8-Channel Microphone/Line Preamp
4/Focusrite Platinum OctoPre 8-Channel Mic Preamp
5/M-Audio Octane
I'm new to this so any experienced suggestions welcomed. Any thoughts on a compressor (though some of these have built in compressors, as well) welcomed also.
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#1826509 - 10/18/07 06:41 AM
Re: mic preamps
[Re: tjryan]
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audiorulez
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I wouldn't IMHO consider any of them "great" but they are all good. The Onyx would be probably my first choice, they sound very nice indeed for the price, but the Presonus units (either one) are also quite good and very reliable. The Focusrite is a more "colored" sound. The Octane is pretty neutral, but IMHO not the fidelity of the Onyx.
AFA compressors, unless you absolutely have to have it due to really poor artist dynamics, I'd recommend skipping it during this process. Given the dynamic headroom of any of the ADDA's you're looking at, if you target your input gains properly (IOW don't try to slam to 0dbfs, but set yoru gain for a nominal to the 0dbu reference of the converter typically between -20 and -12dbfs) you'll have tons of headroom for transient peaks without overshooting 0dbfs.
You can always experiment with compression during mixing, but once you've tracked with it there's no undo.
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#1826662 - 10/18/07 10:38 AM
Re: mic preamps
[Re: audiorulez]
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tjryan
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Are there any preamps you would recommend besides these. tell me your favouries and the price range of each.
Tony
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#1826846 - 10/18/07 03:38 PM
Re: mic preamps
[Re: miroslav]
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tjryan
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I've got a Roland VS-1680 hard disk and I want to record drums and bass and guitar live in the studio all at once. After that I'm going to lay down the vocals and keyboards and other guitar/intrument tracks that I'll fill it out with. I'm making a rock album in the tradional sense - telecasters, les pauls, Hammond B-3's - with a sound in mind of something akin to springsteen, Petty , Byrds, Stones, Faces. I've got lots of quality mics but I'd like to boost the signal when I'm recording life and I've been tld this is what a preamp is meant to do.
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#1826847 - 10/18/07 03:39 PM
Re: mic preamps
[Re: tjryan]
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tjryan
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How much do they jump when you get out of this price range and what makes other preamps such a big step up?
Tony
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#1826860 - 10/18/07 04:19 PM
Re: mic preamps
[Re: tjryan]
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miroslav
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Well...you are talking about 8 preamp channels for $1000.
That's about $125/preamp channel...and that won’t go far towards the manufacture of a high-end pre. I decent one, yes...but not high-Q.
There are 2-channel preamps selling for $2000-$3000 that are made with high quality components and are of reputable pedigree.
As an example...Focusrite makes that OctoPre...but they also have another line, Focusrite Red, where a 2-channel pre is $2k-$3k.
Don't kid yourself that just because both are Focusrite products that they are of equal quality.
But let's back up the bus a bit...
You say you already have Hi-Q mics.
Well, the better the pre...the better your mics will sound.
But...what are using now as pres for the mics?
The built in ones of the 1680...?
OK...so you already have pres, you just want better ones.
Also...why get a single 8-channle pre box?
You might consider getting some 2-channel boxes...or maybe a 4 and 2...etc.
You can have different flavors, and less chance of one box dying and killing all your capabilites.
See...for you vocals, you would want at least one great mic and one great pre.
For some of the other duties...you can go a little on the cheap...unless you can afford all top shelf stuff for everything.
Also...consider that recording bass can be done DI...no need to mic the cab. Sure you can, but many people just go DI.
For drums...keep the mic count down. Start with like 3-4 mics...overheads, snare, kick.
And another one or two mics for guitar.
So you really can get by with less than an 8-channel pre for now.
You can also use some of your existing pres in the 1680.
This is why I said you need to think things out a bit...look at the big picture before you spend your hard earned money.
_________________________
miroslav - miroslavmusic.com"Just because it happened to you, it doesn't mean it's important."
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#1826866 - 10/18/07 04:28 PM
Re: mic preamps
[Re: tjryan]
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miroslav
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...but I'd like to boost the signal when I'm recording life and I've been tld this is what a preamp is meant to do.
Mmmmm....recording "live" doesn't require boosting the mic signal any more than tracking one instrument at a time.
You alwasy want a solid signal from the mic to the pre and on to the recording device.
Just because you are live...you don't want to crank the signal, as every mic/pre has it's limit, and then the signal starts to disort. You just want a very healty signal to maximize your S/N ratio.
Though you may need to crank the headphone signals when you have several people playing live! 
_________________________
miroslav - miroslavmusic.com"Just because it happened to you, it doesn't mean it's important."
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#1827091 - 10/19/07 06:27 AM
Re: mic preamps
[Re: miroslav]
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audiorulez
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There's a lot more to recording than plugging in a mic, sticking it in front of the source and pressing record.
You mentioned you are planning something "akin to Springsteen". I ask, what do you have for mics currently and what are you using for CR monitors? Do you have a dedicated and properly acoustically tuned control room?
AFA recommendations, as Miro said, that's pretty much the short list. However, since you only have spdif as a digital option, and the Roland has 2 mic pres, you only can utilize 6 more plus a 2 channel spdif one. I agree with Miro, consider a couple 2 channel units, possibly buying used. In this area I'd recommend the following:
TL Audio: Tony Larkin makes some great valve pres that won't break your budget. The PA-2 and C-1 are exceptional.
FMR RNP: At under $500 for 2 channels, these little boxes sound amazing, and are regarded as some of the best low budget preamps around.
Grace Design 101: Extremely clean.
While these are all out of your budget range, used they can become a bit more affordable. For $1500 for instance you could have 3 FMR RNP's.
While the Roland is not a bad unit, don't expect miracles from it. Another consideration might be to replace this with something of better quality and more inputs. Assuming you've got a computer, for under $2000 you can get an M-Audio ProjectMix (and M-powered Protools Le software), which has 4 mic pres (+4 lline level inputs for say 2 RMP's), and is expandable via lightpipe and spdif to 18 total i/o. Much better audio quality than the Roland and far greater flexability.
There are many other options other than this, and I'm not endorsing the ProjectMix, just using it as an example.
AFA input signal goes, digital audio is very different from analog. One of the biggest mistakes I see newcomers make is cranking every digital db they can into the converters. Dead wrong. Set your mic pre levels so you are hitting what is called the converters 0dbu reference point with nominal signal. Typically this is between -20 and -12dbfs. (I believe your Roland is -20dbfs=0dbu). This leaves more than adequate headroom for transient peaks and captures a full fidelity signal.
When mix time comes, put your master fader at 0. Leave it there. If you are hitting the mix buss too hot, DO NOT turn down the master fader, lower the individual tracks. While there is more forgiveness in digital, mix buss summing overload is still an issue, and again a very common mistake with beginners. Since the master meters are post fader, keeping the master fader at 0 (and no plugins on the master fader) you can monitor what the input to the mix buss is this way.
So, armed with more info that you probably need, welcome to the endless money pit.
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#1827132 - 10/19/07 08:05 AM
Re: mic preamps
[Re: audiorulez]
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audiofreek
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I agree with Audiorulez,while the 1680 is a very compact recording solution,the jump to a hardware/software solution can give you a very noticeable difference in audio quality.
I started digital recording at home with a Roland VS880.When I got into a digi001,and and Protools LE,the difference in D/A conversion alone, from my old VS880 mixes was dramatic.I've used the 1680,and it's sounds identical to the 880.
That being said,If you want to maximize the inputs on any prosumer Hardware/Software solution,you will still need to by a A/D converter with lightpipe out.I was able to get by at first with the 8 analog inputs on my 001,using my digital out on the VS880 for another two inputs giving me a total of 10 inputs,but using the VS880 preamps got old fast.
I would keep the 1680 around just for live stuff,and ease of set-up.You won't get much resale value out of it.
That being said,you will still want to get an more channels eventually,you can only utilize 2 digital inputs on the VS1680 right now,so you don't really need to spend money on an 8 channel A/D,because you would have 6 pres sitting there doing nothing.Even if you went through the VS1680 analog inputs(if you 8 channel mic preamp has an analog out option),you would still be going through the 1680 mic pres,as there are no true line analog inputs on that machine.
Edited by audiofreek (10/19/07 08:13 AM)
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#1827182 - 10/19/07 10:01 AM
Re: mic preamps
[Re: audiofreek]
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audiorulez
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That being said,you will still want to get an more channels eventually,you can only utilize 2 digital inputs on the VS1680 right now,so you don't really need to spend money on an 8 channel A/D,because you would have 6 pres sitting there doing nothing.
The Roland 1680 only has 2 mic pres, the remaining 6 analog inputs are line level only.
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#1827217 - 10/19/07 10:59 AM
Re: mic preamps
[Re: audiorulez]
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miroslav
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Audiorulez is right.
This is why I thought a couple of 2-channel rack pres, or a 2 & 4 channel rack pre would work out well when used in conjunction with the pres on the 1680.
Get a real nice 2-channel to cover the very important stuff...like vocals.
Another 2 or 4 channel for everything else...along with the two existing 1680 pres.
By having 2/3 2-channel pres...you can get different flavors, and that will com in handy as you do different songs.
Having one 8-channel...you are then stuck with all the same flavor...though of course, your mics play into the flavor too, along with other components down the line.
A sweet 4-channel pre is made by Sytek...and you can find them on eBay for like $750-$950 new from time to time.
Like here is one right now on eBay:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Sytek-MPX-4Aii-Four-...1QQcmdZViewItem
I know some folks don't think much of the A.R.T. MPA Gold, but it is a very decent tube pre if you are on a tight budget.
With a pair of good quality tubes...it will sound pretty good for Rock/Pop music.
Also great on guitars...and it has built in DI for bass and anything else you want to inject without a mic.
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/A...ance?sku=180630
Right there...you got a sweet 4-channel solid state preamp and a 2-channel tube pre...all for like $1200.
And those are only a couple of options...there are many others, especially if you are willing to buy used on eBay.
A couple of years ago I landed a 4-channel Sebatron preamp, which is an Aussie made box, and very Hi-Q stuff.
It sells new for about $2k...I got it lightly used for $1300.
threw some nice tubes in it, and have been using it on a lot of stuff.
It's a wonderful pre.
Keep looking for awhile more before you spend the cash.
Edited by miroslav (10/19/07 11:03 AM)
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miroslav - miroslavmusic.com"Just because it happened to you, it doesn't mean it's important."
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#1827246 - 10/19/07 12:16 PM
Re: mic preamps
[Re: miroslav]
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audiorulez
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As you can see, there are many options to your scenario, AKA the endless money pit!!
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#1827553 - 10/20/07 07:27 AM
Re: mic preamps
[Re: audiorulez]
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audiofreek
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Actually he has 8 mic preamps,only 2 are XLR and phantom powered.
The other 6 are TRS.They have a gain control knob,and the same amount of gain as the XLR.
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#1827576 - 10/20/07 08:20 AM
Re: mic preamps
[Re: audiofreek]
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miroslav
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OK then.
If that is the case...he has even MORE options, and less need to purchase 8 more preamp channels. 
(I am not intimately familiar with the 1680, and was only going with other comments.)
So then he only needs a couple of nice 2-channel boxes...and he can cover a lot of variables with that.
_________________________
miroslav - miroslavmusic.com"Just because it happened to you, it doesn't mean it's important."
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#1827819 - 10/21/07 06:19 AM
Re: mic preamps
[Re: miroslav]
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audiorulez
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I've a friend who has one of these Rolands, and yes, while you can plug a dynamic mic into the TRS inputs, and I don't know the details of the electronics, I do know they sounded like ass compared to plugging into the XLR inputs, so there is a definite difference.
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#1827836 - 10/21/07 07:16 AM
Re: mic preamps
[Re: audiorulez]
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miroslav
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...I do know they sounded like ass compared to plugging into the XLR inputs, so there is a definite difference.
I'm trying to get a "sonic visual" of what "ass" sounds like (but I hear what you are saying).
Looking at the VS1680 specs...all eight inputs are *supposed* to be the same...
Input Level: -50 to +4dBu
maximum: +26dBu Balanced
maximum: +20dBu Unbalanced
Input Impedence: 30k ohms
...but it wouldn't surprise me that they sound different.
Edited by miroslav (10/21/07 07:42 AM)
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miroslav - miroslavmusic.com"Just because it happened to you, it doesn't mean it's important."
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#1827883 - 10/21/07 10:53 AM
Re: mic preamps
[Re: miroslav]
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audiorulez
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Well as I recall we split a single 57 into the XLR and TRS inputs and they sounded radically different. Don't remember if we tried each XLR and multiple TRS inputs, but chances are we did.
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