#1819448 - 10/04/07 06:21 AM
Patch bay question
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Gismo Recording
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Plugging and unplugging cables from different items in my rack is a pain, so I decided to invest in a patch bay or two. Most of them on ebay say something like "Operates In Parallel, Half-Normalled, Normalled, Open". What does this mean?
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#1819469 - 10/04/07 06:51 AM
Re: Patch bay question
[Re: audiorulez]
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Gismo Recording
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Thanks. That's what I needed. I feel kind of embarrassed now, I should have been able to find that myself. It looks like Normalled is the way I want to go for everything.
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#1819506 - 10/04/07 08:40 AM
Re: Patch bay question
[Re: Gismo Recording]
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paully
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Most of them on ebay say something like "Operates In Parallel, Half-Normalled, Normalled, Open". What does this mean?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Actually, if you just want to move the ins/outs of your effect units to a patchbay for quick access without directly leading anywhere else, the "open" method is the best. It's like putting the back of the unit up front. Normalled/half-normalled will short the effects input and output when not in use. Not a good thing.
Best, Paul
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#1819692 - 10/04/07 12:15 PM
Re: Patch bay question
[Re: paully]
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audiorulez
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Typical insert patchbay points are 1/2 normaled.
For gear such as pres, efx, and dynamics, open, or non-normaled is generally the rule, unless you want them to default to specific paths, then 1/2 normaled would be the way to go.
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#1819912 - 10/04/07 06:12 PM
Re: Patch bay question
[Re: audiorulez]
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paully
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Ken,
Thought I'd mention this. No matter what you're using it for or what brand, always spring for a bay with balanced ins/outs, even if the effects are unbalanced. They'll always work on a balanced bay, but balanced effects won't work (correctly) with an unbalanced bay.
Best, Paul
Best, Paul
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#1820034 - 10/05/07 06:32 AM
Re: Patch bay question
[Re: paully]
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Gismo Recording
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Thanks Paul.
I have a bid in on ebay for 2 with balanced ins/outs. Normalled is the way I'll go on most of them, and open on a few. I could go open all the way but that would mean buying a shit-load of cables. From the inserts on the board, the tip goes to a patch bay channel that is normalled with the corresponding input channel on the recorder and the output channels from the recorder connect to a patch bay channel that is normalled with the corresponding ring connection to the board. Then the sub outs on the board, the ins and outs on my compressor, EQ, and effects units will connect to open channels on the patch bays.
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#1820076 - 10/05/07 08:12 AM
Re: Patch bay question
[Re: Gismo Recording]
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audiorulez
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What type of bays are you looking at?
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#1820088 - 10/05/07 08:34 AM
Re: Patch bay question
[Re: Gismo Recording]
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miroslav
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Normalled is the way I'll go on most of them, and open on a few. I could go open all the way but that would mean buying a shit-load of cables.
I use to run 1/2 and Full normalled...but when I rebuilt me current studio, I decided to switch from 1/4" to TT-Bantam...got more PBs...and then just ran everything Open.
Yeah...I have a shit load of cables, and I have to always patch everything/anything...but I like it this way.
With normalled...you actually have twice as many contact points that need to always work inside the PB...witch lowers the reliability…especially for your normal signal path.
And...with PBs that you plug into from "back" and "front"...those contact points are critical for maintaining good signal.
On my PBs...the connections on the "back" are soldered connections...so they will never fail.
On the "front"...I only plug in when I need them, which means the small contact "springs" are only flexed when needed.
Leaving plugs in for a long time will cause them to lose their memory...and also their solid contact point.
I have four 96-point and two 144-point PBs, so I never wanted to have to deal with contact issues on the back side or over-flexed contact springs.
BUT...this isn't going to happen overnight with good PBs...so, you go with what works for your SOP and your budget.
Edited by miroslav (10/05/07 08:35 AM)
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#1820092 - 10/05/07 08:46 AM
Re: Patch bay question
[Re: audiorulez]
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Gismo Recording
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What type of bays are you looking at?
Conquest USA, AP Audio, or Behringer 48 point
Edited by Gismo Recording (10/05/07 08:47 AM)
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#1820097 - 10/05/07 08:55 AM
Re: Patch bay question
[Re: Gismo Recording]
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Griffinator
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You get exactly what you pay for in a patch bay, bear that in mind. That's all I'll say on the matter.
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#1820105 - 10/05/07 09:17 AM
Re: Patch bay question
[Re: Griffinator]
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Gismo Recording
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You get exactly what you pay for in a patch bay, bear that in mind. That's all I'll say on the matter.
So you're saying I may come to regret not spending more, huh? Maybe. If that happens I'll buy more expensive ones and sell these on ebay. I'll probably be able to get back most of what I spent.
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#1820212 - 10/05/07 01:29 PM
Re: Patch bay question
[Re: Gismo Recording]
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Griffinator
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If that happens I'll buy more expensive ones and sell these on ebay.
Be tough to sell a broken patchbay anywhere... unless you're willing to leave that part out of your auction description...
The "get what you pay for" warning is about the durability of the connections, not some esoteric "sound quality" gobbledeegook. It's a patchbay, not a preamp.
Edited by Griffinator (10/05/07 01:33 PM)
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#1820359 - 10/05/07 11:01 PM
Re: Patch bay question
[Re: Gismo Recording]
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audiorulez
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What type of bays are you looking at? Conquest USA, AP Audio, or Behringer 48 point
More specifically, although you in a round about way answered that, was I was asking if you were considering TT, bantam, or TRS. Obviously you're looking at TRS> Stay away from AP and Behringer. Total junk, you'll replace them within the year due to failure. Furman makes great TRS bays, of the 4 we have they have all survived really heavy daily use with no failures for over 7 yrs. Of the 9 AP ones we got, none of them lasted past 3 yrs when it became more cost/time effective to replace them than repair again.
I've heard similiar horror stories of the Conquest ones.
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#1820889 - 10/07/07 10:15 AM
Re: Patch bay question
[Re: audiorulez]
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Gismo Recording
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Thanks for everyone's input. I ended up buying the AP and two Conquests. I ended up spending a total of $66 on all three including shipping. So if they only last two years that's still a deal. I'm working on setting up a studio and there's just so much stuff I have to buy that I need to go low budget on things like patchbays so I can afford to spend more on things like mics and preamps.
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#1821109 - 10/07/07 07:10 PM
Re: Patch bay question
[Re: Gismo Recording]
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audiorulez
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Not much of a deal if they fail in the midst of a take, ruining what your client considers a great take.
Best of luck. You get what you pay for. Buying used patchbays is a crapshoot anyway, buying crappy used patchbays, well let's just say I wouldn't risk my business for the small savings.
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#1822574 - 10/10/07 07:51 AM
Re: Patch bay question
[Re: audiorulez]
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paully
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Lenny,
Spend a couple extra bucks and pick up some of this:
http://store.caig.com/s.nl;jsessionid=ac...=2&category=292 . Great stuff to keep the bays working. A little on a cable plug, then insert and work it a little. Do it for all bay jacks, front and rear. If you're comfortable pulling the bays' covers off, spray the jack's contacts also.
Best, Paul
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#1822692 - 10/10/07 10:40 AM
Re: Patch bay question
[Re: paully]
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Gismo Recording
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Thanks Paul. But who's Lenny?
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#1822800 - 10/10/07 02:30 PM
Re: Patch bay question
[Re: miroslav]
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audiorulez
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The issue with TRS bays is not cleanliness, but the cheesey PC board they are built on. The AP ones break solder joints far too easily, and the entire point is then f*^ked. After only a short time they begin to fail no matter how careful you are because of a sh*tty design and cheap build. The Furman ones are far more secure and built to withstand the rigors of daily usage.
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#1822872 - 10/10/07 05:50 PM
Re: Patch bay question
[Re: audiorulez]
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paully
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I have no intention of getting into any sort of argument with you cause it would be a pointless waste of time, but if you think maintaining equipment isn't an issue, that speaks volumes. It's not even an argument for purchasing a certain brand of bay, just some advice. You buy what you can afford and what you're comfortable with, give it a cleaning, and go to work. Period. Good luck with your purchase, Ken.
Paul
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#1822996 - 10/11/07 04:27 AM
Re: Patch bay question
[Re: paully]
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Griffinator
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You buy what you can afford ...
Paul, the OP has already stated:
I need to go low budget on things like patchbays so I can afford to spend more on things like mics and preamps.
So he's skimped on this purchase. It wasn't a matter of what he could or couldn't afford, it was skimping on something he didn't feel was that important.
And yeah, he's gonna need all the luck he can get buying a used bottom-of-the-line patchbay - he'll be lucky if it lasts 6 months.
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#1823007 - 10/11/07 04:58 AM
Re: Patch bay question
[Re: Griffinator]
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audiorulez
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Exactly. I posted my experience with the some of the OP's considerations, and the issues. they don't last long enough to need cleaning.
The AP's we bought begain failing withing a few months, and they were new. After 3 yrs we had replaced all of them. Again these were purchased brand new.
I suspect the reason the seller is selling them is becauce they got sick of fixing them constantly.
I have no intention of getting into any sort of argument with you cause it would be a pointless waste of time, but if you think maintaining equipment isn't an issue, that speaks volumes. It's not even an argument for purchasing a certain brand of bay, just some advice. You buy what you can afford and what you're comfortable with, give it a cleaning, and go to work. Period. Good luck with your purchase, Ken.
Paul
No one is arguing that a bay occasionally needs to be cleaned. The point being made is the particular TRS bays the OP bought used have a very bad rep for being made poorly (as described) and require repair far before they require cleaning. Don't turn this into a p*ssing contest, it's not. This is a discussion of the issues with particular TRS bays that the OP is buying used.
If these last him 6 months then they need replacing, they aren't much of a value, are they?
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#1823037 - 10/11/07 05:38 AM
Re: Patch bay question
[Re: miroslav]
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Gismo Recording
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So Ken...do you get a lot of "Kenny Denny"...?
Yeah. Not so much now as when I was younger. I'm always quick to correct someone when they call me "Kenny".
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#1823042 - 10/11/07 05:45 AM
Re: Patch bay question
[Re: Gismo Recording]
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Gismo Recording
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Points taken. It looks like I did make a mistake at least with the Conquest bays. They arrived yesterday and they are not what the seller claimed. They only have two modes, half-normal and open.
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#1823046 - 10/11/07 05:53 AM
Re: Patch bay question
[Re: Gismo Recording]
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Gismo Recording
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I just want to say this. Audiorulez, you have good advice to give but you present it in a way that makes me not want to take it. You never actually said it but the tone of your posts comes across as "If you don't do it my way you're an idiot."
Please work on trying to present your ideas in a more friendly manner.
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#1823067 - 10/11/07 06:32 AM
Re: Patch bay question
[Re: Gismo Recording]
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audiorulez
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Or, perhaps you are reading my posts the wrong way Gismo. Please work on your reading and comprehension.
1/2 normal and non-normaled (open) should do you fine. While there may be a maker, I've never seen any TRS bays that are fully normalled. They are designer modularly so they can be either one or the other (1/2 or non normaled) depending on how you orient the module in the frame. Pretty SOP for all TRS bays.
We use 1/2 and non-normalled bays here with no problelms. All our console insert points are 1/2 normalled, along with XLR patchpoints (from various rooms) to console pre inputs. We also 1/2 normal 4 aux sends to HP amp inputs. We can easily route around this via the bay, and being 1/2 normalled causes no issues.
Other devices, outboard pres and dynamics etc., all get routed through non normalled points.
Once we sorted through the cheap bays and replaced them with the Furmans, we've had no issues. While it cost us more than we wanted, we still saved hundreds over TT or longframe bays, and the Furmans are holding up just fine. We are constantly patching in them, and so far none have failed.
If you got the bays off e-bay via paypal, you might consider returning them for a refund, since they are not what they were advertized to be. This would save you the hassle of dealing with what will quickly be more problem than solution, and, while your budget doesn't have room for it now, down the road with a bit of savings you can get yourself something more durable that will last.
DBX also made some nice TRS bays, not sure if they are still making them.
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#1823095 - 10/11/07 07:19 AM
Re: Patch bay question
[Re: audiorulez]
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Gismo Recording
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There are a few Furman PB-40's on ebay for the same price as I paid for my "cheap" ones. But it appears that they only work in half-normal mode so that's not something I want. It looks like DBX Patchbays still exist. They also only operate in half-normal or open mode. But now that I think about it that will probably be OK. I may have to occassionally plug a jack into the lower plug just to break the connection when what I really want is to reroute the upper plug.
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#1823148 - 10/11/07 09:22 AM
Re: Patch bay question
[Re: Gismo Recording]
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audiorulez
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Perhaps you are confused about 1/2 vs full normalled. The only difference is when you patch our of the send of a full normal it breaks the path to the return, whereas with 1/2 normalled, the path is not broken. You can still however route the send to wherever you wish in 1/2 normalled, just as you can with full normalled. We do this all the time.
I'm assuming the PB40's are not from the same seller. If they are, perhaps you can arrrange an exchange. Otherwise I'd go for getting your money back, since, as you said, they are not as advertized.
Be advised however that TRS patchbays, even good ones, are subject to issues more expensive TT and longframe ones are not, ie the breakage of the connectors off the PC board. However, depending on usage, either the DBX or the Furmans can from my experience give you several years of heavy daily usage troublefree. IMHO it's worth spending the money on new ones rather than risking what you get used. This is afterall a critical signal flow connection. While it seems like a lot more now, over several years it becomes a pretty small sum in return for a reliable patching system.
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