#1815262 - 09/24/07 07:33 PM
Pedal Start For Live Rig
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Stan C
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Hello! I have been a subscriber to EQ and Keyboard for decades and find both magazines to be immensely useful. I am new to the online/discussion scene so if I breach online etiquette please forgive me. To the point. I have a rather elderly but reliable keyboard/sequencer setup that I use for recording, composing and live performance. I am looking to improve my live rig by making it MUCH smaller. I play mostly as a one or two person band fronted by guitars. The rig provides Bass, Drum and Keyboard backing with a keyboard onstage for live playing also. I would like to have a laptop based setup with audio tracks from the computer. I know that there are many ways to do this but that is not the problem. I HAVE to be able to trigger the tracks to start by foot pedal! Many of the sites I have read talk of starting tracks with a mouse. This will not work! With my present rig the audience does not even notice when I hit my start pedal. I can't be reaching over and poking at a mouse or touch screen mostly because I'm playing guitar as the tracks start. My ancient Roland sequencer starts with a momentary foot switch and has NEVER (knock wood) locked up or even so much as stuttered during a performance. I just stomp on it and go! I hope to start gigging more and need a rig that is relatively bullet-proof and is lighter and smaller than my current rack mount sound module, dual keyboards with stand and sequencer. I appreciate any input or suggestions y'all might have to help this old schooler into the 21st century.
Stan
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#1815378 - 09/25/07 05:44 AM
Re: Pedal Start For Live Rig
[Re: Stan C]
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audiorulez
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While it is a naive world we live in, if you think that by using a footpedal instead of a mouse of keyboard to start your obviously not played by human tracks is fooling the audience into thinking it's not memorex, think again.
You'll need a countin anyway to know when to begin, simply put a few seconds of dead air that you can yak over in front of the tracks, then the count, and you'll not be at the mouse when the tracks start so you can keep your ruse of an illusion going.
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#1815475 - 09/25/07 09:12 AM
Re: Pedal Start For Live Rig
[Re: audiorulez]
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Stan C
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No I'm not "fooling" the audience. I'm keeping a smooth flow going from one song to another. Also most times I am playing guitar and want the track to come in at a certain point. For some songs a count in is fine but for other songs (and my arrangements),I need to be able to trigger them at a precise point. Reaching over and punching something can be distraction to the audience. They also don't notice when you step on a stomp box for a solo, but they know the sound has changed. I'm just trying to have a steady performance from the audiences perspective.
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#1815717 - 09/25/07 05:23 PM
Re: Pedal Start For Live Rig
[Re: Stan C]
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miroslav
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If you need to trigger at a precise point...
...I don't think you will be able to pull it off using a computer, as there is always some latency, and the buffers will cause a slight delay between the time you hit the "pedal" and the time the computer reacts.
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miroslav - miroslavmusic.com"Just because it happened to you, it doesn't mean it's important."
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#1815736 - 09/25/07 06:01 PM
Re: Pedal Start For Live Rig
[Re: miroslav]
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Stan C
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How much of a delay might there be? A millisecond or two probably wouldn't matter. It seems like a simple deal, just stomp and go, but it is turning out to be more complicated than that. It's kinda hard to believe that in only 20 years (more or less) we've gone from something easy that you take for granted (foot switch)to "no can do." I understand there is a significant difference between MIDI data and audio files as far as how hard the computer has to work so that is another factor in all this. I worked in broadcasting for some years and we had broadcast CD players that were remote start. Not only that, they would auto cue to the next song on the disc. I visited a Sam Ash store near me and asked if any of their pro/dj CD players had remote start. They looked at me like I had grown another eye in my forehead. I don't want to go to CD, it's too limited in setting up song orders etc. I see these karaoke guys with on screen displays and song order selection etc. I just want to start it with my big ol' foot. Anyway... thanks and any other ideas would be most welcome!
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#1815814 - 09/25/07 10:42 PM
Re: Pedal Start For Live Rig
[Re: Stan C]
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Jim Quinn
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Stan,
First of all, welcome to the Musicplayer.com forums!
I often move first time posts to the forum most likely to elicit relevant feedback. In your case, it applies to several Music Player forums. I'm sure your opening comments will be appreciated by EQ Editors. The “Letters to the Editors” forum is intended for discussion/feedback concerning EQ Magazine. Your etiquette is fine and this happens all the time. If you don’t receive adequate responses here, you might consider posting your question in
Use Your Ears or The Keyboard Corner or Tech
Concerning your question, I have a suggestion.
Disclaimer: I’m the forums administrator, not a performer and rarely make suggestions in any of the forums. However, my previous experience as an electrical engineer designing keyboard and mouse emulators for trading room systems is relevant to your question.
If I understand your situation correctly, a foot pedal emulating a mouse should suffice. Using keywords “mouse emulator foot pedal” through Google, I discovered several possible solutions in no time. I’ll leave it to you and others for additional research and discussion, but at first look, the following appear to be possible solutions: Pedalpax
Naturalpoint
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#1815881 - 09/26/07 06:32 AM
Re: Pedal Start For Live Rig
[Re: Jim Quinn]
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Stan C
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Thanks Jim! I'll look at the items you suggested and see if they might be what I need. If you need to move this post, go ahead. I appreciate your help and suggestions.
Stan
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#1815946 - 09/26/07 08:56 AM
Re: Pedal Start For Live Rig
[Re: Stan C]
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miroslav
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Depending on how many tracks you are trying to trigger simultaneously and their file size/resolution...you may have to use a large enough buffer to allow smooth playback, BUT that WOULD cause a noticeable initial playback delay.
If not too many tracks, then you can shrink your buffers which would allow for more instantaneous playback upon trigger.
You will just have to mess with it until you find a workable setup.
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miroslav - miroslavmusic.com"Just because it happened to you, it doesn't mean it's important."
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#1815983 - 09/26/07 10:18 AM
Re: Pedal Start For Live Rig
[Re: miroslav]
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Stan C
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Probably I would be running two or four tracks. (drums, bass, & a couple of synth tracks. That raises a whole 'nother question about what software and interface would be used. Those are maybe questions for another day (or thread). But if you have a suggestion...I'll take 'em! I would then run the tracks out to a mixer and then to PA. I like to keep it as simple as possible.
Thanks!!
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#1816078 - 09/26/07 01:13 PM
Re: Pedal Start For Live Rig
[Re: Stan C]
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miroslav
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There are many DAW apps that will do what you want..playback prerecorded audio tracks and/or MIDI tracks...so you don't need anything extreme or expensive to do something basic like that.
If you plan on individually running those tracks out to a real mixer...then you will also need a multi-channel A/D/A card that will allow you to do more than a stereo pair of tracks.
Otherwise you can also submix your DAW tracks to a stereo pair and just run that out to the mixer using a 2-channel A/D/A card.
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miroslav - miroslavmusic.com"Just because it happened to you, it doesn't mean it's important."
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#1816239 - 09/26/07 08:21 PM
Re: Pedal Start For Live Rig
[Re: miroslav]
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Stan C
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I appreciate the info. One more thing...What kind of specs are preferred for the lap top? RAM, processor, speed etc?? I assume the faster the better, but I may be able to get access to a good, pretty new used lap top (for free maybe) and it would be nice if it would be able to do what I want. I have the feeling that once I make the leap to this I'll wonder how I did without it! Kinda like when you first go to 24 track digital. (I'll never fill up all these tracks...oops! looks like I just did!) I'm sure you can relate!!
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#1816321 - 09/27/07 05:13 AM
Re: Pedal Start For Live Rig
[Re: Stan C]
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miroslav
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You should be able to do a handful of tracks with most any decent laptop...so no problems there.
If you get into dozens of tracks...well, you will see if the laptop is struggling or not.
Also...for a live gig...you can probably just record your tracks at a low resolution...44.1/16...if your laptop is struggling with higher rez tracks, but see how far you can push it.
_________________________
miroslav - miroslavmusic.com"Just because it happened to you, it doesn't mean it's important."
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#1816350 - 09/27/07 06:50 AM
Re: Pedal Start For Live Rig
[Re: miroslav]
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Stan C
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Yeah, I concur. 44.1 is fine for live. I plan to only use a few tracks...keep it simple and sounding like a band.
Thanks!!!!
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#1818466 - 10/02/07 08:44 AM
Re: Pedal Start For Live Rig
[Re: audiorulez]
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Stan C
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Hi!
I can assure you I always look seriously at what type of entertainment I'm providing and where. I have been doing live gigs (either solo guitar or with tracks) for over 15 years, and playing in different bands since the 80's. I have played in the typical smoke filled bars and clubs, fine restaurants, special events, private parties and benefit concerts with audiences ranging from a handful to thousands. A good performer always looks for ways to improve their performance. As you know sometimes in a live venue, the performers sometimes feel like living muzak, but the point is to make it a good experience for the customer...the audience. True, not everyone is paying attention to the playing, as an aside, you can usually spot other musicians by the fact that they are watching the band/player intently...we're easy to pick out , but the audience deserves the best performance and sound quality you can give. My PA and monitor set-up as I have it now is fine(yes, always room to improve). I have found by my experience and by watching other performers ,both "live" and with tracks and sequencing, that the public responds better and enjoys the performance more when it sounds more like a "band" than overly slick, over complicated tracks. Drums, Bass, Keyboards, with live Guitar and vocals. You are right, keep it simple. Also since I do all of my sequence programing and arrangements myself, I know that I will sound different than the other performers who may be using pre-recorded tracks they have purchased elsewhere.The owners of the venues usually tell me that patrons ask "when is that guy gonna' be back? We want to hear him again." That is why finding a pedal was so frustrating. I know how I want things on stage and I have a reason for wanting it that way. It's kind of like an aerobatic pilot at an air show. The audience sees a plane flying smoothly through its maneuvers, they don't know how hard the pilot is working in the cockpit or why that switch or handle has to be right where it is. And..to stretch the flying analogy a bit..Yes I have "crashed" a time or two on stage (usually pilot error!) but I walked away, laughed it off and the audience got a chuckle out of it too! I agree that K.I.S.S. as a philosophy is a VERY good thing. And I am sure you will agree that sloppy performers, with poor stage presence, bad sound quality and lousy manners hurt ALL of us in music. They devalue the music, they lower audience expectations and depress the pay scale for the rest of us who provide quality. The details matter. That is why this forum is so important. Whether it's live sound, production, acoustics or home/studio recording, you can find it here! Thanks again for all the input and I look forward to putting it to good use!
Stan
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#1818968 - 10/03/07 07:51 AM
Re: Pedal Start For Live Rig
[Re: Stan C]
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audiorulez
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Good luck.
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#1836159 - 11/05/07 04:47 PM
Re: Pedal Start For Live Rig
[Re: Stan C]
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paully
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Hi Stan,
It's been years since I messed with live computer rigs, but here are a couple avenues to look at.
I don't know what you're using as a music program, but at one time they used to allow you to key the program on and off from assignable keys on the keyboard.. usually the ones that you don't normally use(the two lowest keys are good choices).
If you must go with foot operation, check to see if the program can be started/stopped with a CC message: IE a high number(127) from one switch to turn it on, and a low number(0) from a second switch to turn it off. You'll have to read the ol' manual to see if these options still exist. If they do, any simple 2 channel midi footswitch that sends CC messages should work.
Look at this http://www.midisolutions.com/prodfsw.htm# .
Best, Paul
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WUDAYAKNOW.. For the first time in my life, I'm wrong again!!
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#1839612 - 11/12/07 06:55 AM
Re: Pedal Start For Live Rig
[Re: paully]
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Stan C
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Paully....
I have gotten some more input from some folks who are doing what I am planning.
There are also several units out there that send MIDI/usb commands and can accept 1/4 inch inputs from commonly available momentary pedals. Those pedals are cheap and I've already got some.
I may be using a program called On Stage Performer but haven't decided yet. That program will send MIDI to effects processors and lighting rigs, so I can always upgrade my stuff.
Another fellow was using Itunes on a laptop to play tracks for a rig that was touring and doing demos' with a major music manufacturer. It sounded great!!
Thanks for your info and I'll check out the link.
Stan
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#1922569 - 04/05/08 11:28 PM
Re: Pedal Start For Live Rig
[Re: Stan C]
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RappinRandy
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Welcome , Enjoy your stay !
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