#1802330 - 08/29/07 02:44 PM
Opinions on Steinberg Products
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audio pedestrian
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Hi everyone. This feels like a silly question, but..
Are there any opinions out there on Nuendo and Cubase 4? I've heard that some SX3 users (as well as users of other versions) feel abandoned by the development of Cubase 4. Is Nuendo still a viable program, or is Steinberg losing the battle to Pro Tools and other sw programs.
Thanks.
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#1802362 - 08/29/07 04:10 PM
Re: Opinions on Steinberg Products
[Re: audio pedestrian]
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audiorulez
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IMHO Cubase is a good prosumer DAW app, with a very small learning curve, and some nice features. I've heard good things mixed on it.
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#1802481 - 08/30/07 03:09 AM
Re: Opinions on Steinberg Products
[Re: audio pedestrian]
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Bill@Welcome Home Studios
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Hi everyone. This feels like a silly question, but..
Are there any opinions out there on Nuendo and Cubase 4? I've heard that some SX3 users (as well as users of other versions) feel abandoned by the development of Cubase 4. Is Nuendo still a viable program, or is Steinberg losing the battle to Pro Tools and other sw programs.
Thanks.
Okay, when I want to buy a piece of audio gear, I try to look for the features that I need, the price that I want to pay, upgrade paths, and company support.
In terms of your: "Is Nuendo still a viable program, or is Steinberg losing the battle to Pro Tools and other sw programs.", this is a distraction. If the program does what you want it to do and the company gives you the support that you need, what do you care what anyone else is doing?
I've never been a fan of Steinberg. I had bad experiences with their support in the vey distant past and I have heard others with similar tales of woe in the not so distant past. But they have a hugely popular set of audio programs, so what does that mean? That thousands of people are completely happy with Steinberg.
If you are an experienced recordist, then you know what you need, and what you don't need. So it becomes a matter of look and feel, and to determine what program you need, you just have to try out some demos or better yet, go where someone is using a program that you think that you might be interesting in purchasing, and watch it being used under real world conditions.
If you are an inexperienced recorist, it is harder to choose, and the first thing that many try to do is to buy a program that does everything in the world. That is great, but if you really don't NEED everything in the world and you don't use everything in the world, why are you paying for it, working around the code bloat, and what parts that you need are less good because the coders spent time working on stuff that you don't need or use anyway?
If your focus is audio, get a program that starteed life as an audio program and excels in audio... like SAWStudio, Samplitude... there are quite a few. If your focus is MIDI, get a program that started life as a MIDI app, like Cubase, Sonar, etc. If looping is your thing look at Acid. If you really do more video, consider Vegas. But focus on what yoyu really need, and foreget the extraneous features that have no value to you.
Bill
Edited by Bill@Welcome Home Studios (08/30/07 03:11 AM)
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#1802566 - 08/30/07 07:35 AM
Re: Opinions on Steinberg Products
[Re: Bill@Welcome Home Studios]
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audiorulez
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Okay, when I want to buy a piece of audio gear, I try to look for the features that I need, the price that I want to pay, upgrade paths, and company support.
In terms of your: "Is Nuendo still a viable program, or is Steinberg losing the battle to Pro Tools and other sw programs.", this is a distraction. If the program does what you want it to do and the company gives you the support that you need, what do you care what anyone else is doing?
Compatibility with other users/studios is a pretty major concern IMHO.
Protools is hands down the industry dominant leader, and probably will be for years to come. Great marketing is a powerful tool. However it's got some major limitations, on the Le side there's the constant discontinuance of software compatibility for older hardware, forcing users to purchase new hardware they don't necessarily need to remain software up to date. The 32 track limit unless you want to shell out another $500 to expand to 48. HD is simply far beyond the budgets of hobbyists. Still the fact remains that more music is recorded and/or mixed on PT than probably all other formats combined.
IMHO it's a major investment if and only if you want to be a competitive commercial entity, or want the ease of being able to take your home/hobby studio sessions to a pro PT faciltiy effortlessly. Otherwise, look elsewhere.
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#1802585 - 08/30/07 08:07 AM
Re: Opinions on Steinberg Products
[Re: audiorulez]
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Bill@Welcome Home Studios
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"Compatibility with other users/studios is a pretty major concern IMHO."
I cannot begin to explain how over-rated this feature is.... since it is not even a feature. In the first place, anyone who attends AES meetings knows from the constant complaints from people like George Massenburg, Chuck Anley, etc etc, that Pro Tools is not even compatable within itself over the various versions and sub-releases, so moving a PT session from one studio to another is a crap shoot. And the AES has set in AES31 the approved method of inter-facility compatability, and it is pretty simple and doable by anyone. Besides, how many people out there who are recording really ever move from one facility to another while tracking or mixing? 1%? 0.5%? Probably less. May be a factor for you, but IMHO, it is a smokescreen.
Bill
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#1802595 - 08/30/07 08:24 AM
Re: Opinions on Steinberg Products
[Re: Bill@Welcome Home Studios]
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audiorulez
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Indie artists often track in their own home studios and mix at pro facilities, I do a couple of these types of clients every week.
It is very common also to go to a specific studio to track, for want of the sound of their room for drums, or a particular piano for instance.
While there are rooms that do double duty, many pro facilities are either a mix room or a tracking room.
There's compatibility issues with new versions of any software to older ones, You can save PT sessions in older formats for compliance with older versions. Again we regularly do mix sessions that were done on the "latest greatest" PT software in an older version this exact way. It simply requires the client/engineer to have a clue, and some communication between them and us in the form of one phone call or e-mail, taking all of maybe 5 minutes.
For the client who is wanting the most for their time and money, this is invaluable. certainly files can be imported, but it is time consuming to say the least. Showing up with a couple FW drives with your ready to go PT sessions saves time, money and gives peace of mind to the client knowing they have the portability ease. This is the MAJOR reason why PT is the industry leader. A majority of our clients come here specifically because they have been working in PT and wish to continue in that format, which, as explained above, can easily be done.
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#1802759 - 08/30/07 01:12 PM
Re: Opinions on Steinberg Products
[Re: audiorulez]
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miroslav
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But what type of compatibility...?
If it's just file compatibility...I would think most DAWs can open any number of audio files (WAV, AIFF, MP3..etc) already.
If it's about total DAW compatibility...where you can take a DAW project done in Samplitude and open it in PT or Nuendo or any other DAW...
...then it's not happening anyway...so I would not worry about it.
If the guys bring their homebrewed WAV files to you...it's no problem to open them...right?
You just bump them all up to the "0" start point...and away you go.
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#1802780 - 08/30/07 01:53 PM
Re: Opinions on Steinberg Products
[Re: miroslav]
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audiorulez
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Hmmmm.....lets see, I'm thinking that would be Protools compatibility. While there will be issues with plugins, most sessions that come for mix don't have any plugins, they are PT sessions edited and ready for mix, ie add the plugins, etc. Bring a PT studio a PT session, and, provided you had that 5 minute conversation and understand anything about PT, you brought a drive with a PT session that will open immediately on the mix studios PT system and in a few minutes you're ready to begin mixing.
Or you can spend hours on studio time to import the files from some other DAW export.
Time/money management. If you're doing this (track here/mix there) constantly then it makes total sense, saving hours of studio time. If you're a home hobby recordist who may never go beyond your confines, then obviously it doesn't
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#1802867 - 08/30/07 05:36 PM
Re: Opinions on Steinberg Products
[Re: miroslav]
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audiorulez
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I suggest you read this post in it's entirety.
Moving files is one thing, importing them into sessions is another. Moving a couple hundred gb of files however from a clients FW drive (the standard for audio file transport) takes a lot more than a few minutes. Perhaps you might research FW transfer speed and practice some math skills.
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#1802900 - 08/30/07 07:00 PM
Re: Opinions on Steinberg Products
[Re: audiorulez]
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miroslav
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No point in rereading the thread a second time.
But before this thread turns into a tennis match… 
You raised the compatibility issue, and I'm just trying to see where that issue is.
I was only saying that if you reduce things down to a common denominator (WAV AIFF)...then you have no real compatibility issues.
And while I agree that PT may be ingrained as the most used DAW platform…that’s only due to good marketing by Digidesign.
There are still a lot of pros using non-PT DAWs…and they get by fine without having any PT compatibility issues…
…so I think there is more than one way to look at the whole “Which DAW should I buy?” question.
As far as moving a "couple of hundred gb of files"...WOW…that must be a LOT of tracks/edits….?
I dunno'...right now I have on my DAW a 10-song project...TRACKED AT 88.2!!!...and it is less than 40GB on my HD. That's including some multiple takes for guitars, drums, vocals on many of the songs.
Each song has no more than 30 tracks or so and uses up about 3-4 GB.
Most other things I've done are also in that GB range.
I just never over-track...or do 10 different submixes...etc.
But I do believe that some people CAN take a simple R&R song and turn it into a Cecil B. DeMille production...
...so I’m sure it's possible for you to receive 200GB projects from some clients.
Though… if you are always working from external FW drives...then you really do not even need to transfer the files to the DAW. You can just work the WAV files right off the client’s FW drive...so there's no real transfer time…?
I guess a lot depends on what type of editing/mixing you are being asked to do. So getting complete, PT compatible session may be necessary in your environment.
I don't go that route...and whenever anyone asks me what kind of files to bring...I always tell them to just bring me the complete WAV files for each track. I do not need or want their sessions files, as I will import into Samplitude and start the mix fresh. And it hasn't really been a problem or a major time consumer doing any file transfers/uploads.
By the time the files are moved over…I’m just about done setting up other gear in the studio…and brewing some coffee.
Anyway...several good DAW choices out there.
I cut my teeth on Cubase when it was just a MIDI sequencing program about 17 eyars ago.
I've played around with Nuendo a bit...but it was not my software, so I never had a chance to actually track/edit/mix an entire project with it.
Cubase SX...mmmmm...it's just not on my radar.
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miroslav - miroslavmusic.com"Just because it happened to you, it doesn't mean it's important."
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#1803099 - 08/31/07 07:44 AM
Re: Opinions on Steinberg Products
[Re: miroslav]
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audiorulez
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40gb @88.2 across 24 tracks is about 90 minutes, pretty small potatoes these days for CD tracking. Must be some pretty short songs if you're got 30 tracks per song.
Most sessions we see are in the 30-40 track range, each song with several takes to potentially comp from, alternative versions, etc. Major label stuff commonly exceeds 60 tracks, and can be triple digits if there's an orchestra involved.
And there's backup, so multiply that x2.
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#1803128 - 08/31/07 08:19 AM
Re: Opinions on Steinberg Products
[Re: audiorulez]
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miroslav
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Naaa...most of the songs are in the 5-8 minute range...
...but like I said, I rarely get past 30 tracks/song...and the minute I am done editing and start mixing...
..I will DELETE all other tracks, outtakes, edits…etc.
I keep nothing that is not going to be part of the final mix.
Yeah...it's a bit of commitment...but I like to keep things as simple as possible.
It's basic, old-style Rock/Pop...and I tend to track and mix with an analog tape mentality...so I guess that's why I never end up with HUGE track counts and lot's of alternate edits/mixes.
I even went and checked my DAW folders last night to make sure I wasn't giving you the wrong numbers...and really, I have 10 songs split between two partitions, and they total only about 36GB.
And each song folder is in the 3-4GB range...all tracked at 88.2...and I even have several stereo tracks in almost every song...so that doubles the file size.
Some of the songs are les then 24 tracks.
Like I said...a very "analog tape-like" approach...and I never use any plug-ins either, as I mix out through an analog console...so the songs are just basic WAV files, free of any DAW “add-ons” in most all cases.
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miroslav - miroslavmusic.com"Just because it happened to you, it doesn't mean it's important."
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#1803139 - 08/31/07 08:41 AM
Re: Opinions on Steinberg Products
[Re: miroslav]
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audiorulez
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1st rule of recording. Never delete anything.
Drive space is cheap, once it's gone, it's gone.
Better to have and not need than need and not have. Nothing pisses off a client more than "oh, I thought we wouldn't need that so I deleted it."
But all this is moot, since you're not mixing in a DAW anyway.
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#1803300 - 08/31/07 12:47 PM
Re: Opinions on Steinberg Products
[Re: audiorulez]
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miroslav
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I disagree somewhat.
When tracking...I will often delete tracks that are not happening the way I want them. I will not save them for "just in case". I will instead re-track until I like what I have as a whole.
While I'm editing and premixing...I do not delete anything.
But when the mix is set and agreed upon....then it's done.
I no longer have any need for those 3 other guitar tracks…etc…etc.
It's not a question of drive space...rather for me, it's about commitment toward a specific goal.
If I'm going to hang on to a bunch of tracks even after I have the final mix set...then I'm going to be second guessing myself.
I like to finish something in a way where it's not going to be infinitely changeable down the road....'cuz IMO, that comes off like I never had any vision to begin with and it was more about parts-is-parts, and where I was just guessing/hoping to find something in all those "parts"...and even after I find it, I'm still clinging to what's left over…which means I’m not sure about what I have.
As far as someone else's files...I may not actualy delete them...but I will take all the leftover files and place them in a different folder, and have just the finished project files in the project folder.
Nothing wrong with keeping EVERYTHING...if that's the way you prefer to work.
I know in this digital age that has become quite the norm for most people.
I like to "lock" things in, discard the excess… and then live with it. 
Edited by miroslav (08/31/07 12:57 PM)
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miroslav - miroslavmusic.com"Just because it happened to you, it doesn't mean it's important."
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#1803494 - 08/31/07 09:38 PM
Re: Opinions on Steinberg Products
[Re: miroslav]
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audiorulez
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I like to make the client happy, since they are the ones signing the check. that means having my arse covered, not telling them "Oh I figured you wouldn't need that so I decided for you to delete it forever."
If that's how you want to run your business good luck. I like my clients to come back. Drive space is cheap, recreating the session that you deleted because you thought the client wouldn't want that 4th take from the guitarist they flew in from (insert distant country here) for the session isn't.
Unless it's my dime paying for the recording it's not my decision to make.
Better to have and not need, than need and not have.
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#1803514 - 08/31/07 10:20 PM
Re: Opinions on Steinberg Products
[Re: audiorulez]
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miroslav
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Well...you missed the part where I said if they real are all someone else's files...I don't delete out of hand, but will put the excess stuff in a different folder, outside of the finished project folder.
But here’s the real deal for me...
I don't just press buttons and turn knobs to please a client.
With every project I do that involves other people, I am a part of the project.
In other words...I'm not just an engineer gun for hire, rather I am also a musician/producer and I get to make or be a part of the final decisions on most of the projects I am involved with.
That's why I do them.
That's why other people work with me when I am not doing my own music.
They trust my decisions.
But if I was just pressing buttons to please a client for a fee...then my perspective would change.
Oh...I've never once had any "Oh shit!" moments when excess tracks/music was discarded after the project was completed.
Like I said...when it's mixed...it's mixed.
There's no going back for a second or third try.
There are many ways to do things...many SOPs.
You find the one that works for your situation.
But I can understand why you have to play it extra safe with tracks files. When you are hired to perform a service…then the client always has the last word, and the right to changer his mind (most will when they have too many choices).
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miroslav - miroslavmusic.com"Just because it happened to you, it doesn't mean it's important."
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#1803695 - 09/01/07 11:04 AM
Re: Opinions on Steinberg Products
[Re: miroslav]
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audio pedestrian
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Regarding what you guys are discussing:
It's good to think of things from an archival standpoint. Organization of tracks for mixing and good labeling of tracks/content is important. If anyone other than you had to recreate the mix, make sure they know what's what.
A case in point would be remixing for surround. Who would have imagined that someone would be pulling out those dusty masters 20 or 30 years later, but you can tell from some of the remixes (the Jeff Beck albums are a good example), that it was very difficult to tell what tracks were used in the original. Guitar leads were most likely not comped, and it was nearly impossible to recreate the original music (or the vibe).
I cut my teeth in the analog world, where everything that wasn't used in the mix was cleaned (erased), and everything that was on more than one track was comped. I like Miroslav's idea of organizing unused recordings in a separate folder.
Maybe we'll be remixing for four dimensional sound in a few years, though I haven't really heard too much music in the last decade with that "timeless," classic quality. Maybe the stuff you guys are mixing will come under that category :-)
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#1803744 - 09/01/07 01:13 PM
Re: Opinions on Steinberg Products
[Re: audio pedestrian]
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miroslav
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Well...not sure how much of my stuff will get pulled out 20-30 years from now for a remix.
But..I do take care to label and organize all my files/projects.
And I keep at least 3 levels of backups/archives.
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miroslav - miroslavmusic.com"Just because it happened to you, it doesn't mean it's important."
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#1803862 - 09/01/07 07:19 PM
Re: Opinions on Steinberg Products
[Re: miroslav]
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audiorulez
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We're not talking about when it's mixed, we're talking about a client walking in with their drives to mix. A pro loads everything in anticipation of being properly prepared for whatever the client asks for.
Sure once the project is finished, then if whoever owns the tracks can decide what to keep and what not to keep. In no way is it the engineers decision unless the client specificially instructs them to make this decision.
However when a client comes with files to begin mixing, they expect all the files will be at their disposal when they want them, not when the engineer gets around to loading them.
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#1803889 - 09/01/07 09:33 PM
Re: Opinions on Steinberg Products
[Re: audiorulez]
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miroslav
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Not sure why you are now stating the obvious...and something we were not even talking about....???
But since you bring it up...
Not sure what your SOP is...but I usually discuss things with the people I’m working with….prior to loading any files.
I don’t just get a drive full of files/folders and proceed loading everything off of it.
(People don’t just “walk in” with a HD full of files off the street and ask me to “load it up”. )
We will then review the various takes, and from there decide on what to work with and what we can put aside, as often there is more there than is really needed.
Each project is different…and sometimes, you resort to piecing things together from less than good quality takes and other times there are solid takes throughout.
But to get back to the original discussion…I still will only use the basic WAV files.
I don’t bother loading whatever FX/plugs were previously applied.
I prefer to have clean, basic tracks and cut/paste comp tracks.
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miroslav - miroslavmusic.com"Just because it happened to you, it doesn't mean it's important."
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#1803951 - 09/02/07 05:20 AM
Re: Opinions on Steinberg Products
[Re: miroslav]
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audiorulez
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I'm stating the obvious because you don't seem to be able to understand same.
How do you "review the various takes" without loading all the files?
No, people don't walk in with a HD full of files off the street and ask to load it up, clients book time and expect the files they want to work on to be ready and available.
Typically there would not be any plugins from the tracking files, unless there were files rendered with the plugin, in which case you'd have no choice.
Not sure what your issue is here, if you don't grasp the concept of the subject, or if you're just once again trying to stir up something. While I hope the former, I suspect once again the latter.
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#1803977 - 09/02/07 07:44 AM
Re: Opinions on Steinberg Products
[Re: miroslav]
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audiorulez
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Once again you attempt to put false words into my mouth. Never did I say my way was "the only right way".
Your continued attempts to draw posters into p*ssing contests is really, really getting old. Please stick to your word and leave this thread alone if you have nothing positive to contribute.
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#1804382 - 09/03/07 07:48 AM
Re: Opinions on Steinberg Products
[Re: audiorulez]
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audiofreek
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I've been recording indie metal bands in PT LE6.4 windows XP Mac compatible sessions,backing up the session and audio to DVD,then giving the files to the client.They send them off over the internet to a friend who works at The Matrix in LA, and he mixes,and edits them on an HD system ,and on PT LE 7.3.
Any issues we have with files are usually due to sending them over the net.I don't have to consolidate regions,start files from the zero marker.All files load with their session data,and aux sends in place no alignment needed.
Edited by audiofreek (09/03/07 07:56 AM)
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#1804827 - 09/04/07 06:18 AM
Re: Opinions on Steinberg Products
[Re: audiofreek]
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audiorulez
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This is the beauty of working in PT. Any session can be quickly and easily ported to any PT studio. The only stubling block is version compatibility, but Digi navigates that with save as options to older versions. Of course this is true of pretty much any DAW, but with PT being the popular kid on the block, if you do a lot of colaboration work, either with other studios/engineers/producers, then it's a no brainer this is the way to go.
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#1805790 - 09/05/07 09:15 PM
Re: Opinions on Steinberg Products
[Re: audiorulez]
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techristian
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It doesn't matter to me what NEW things Steinberg comes up with. I'll still use Cubase SX V1 because I got off the hardware/software merrygoround 4 years ago. Buying a new version of the software will require the use of new hardware which may make other software also obsolete which will make some hardware obsolete etc.....etc.
AS YOU MAY HAVE GUESSED, i LIKE CUBASE SX, and I also work with Sonar 2.2.
I'm just guessing , but I suppose my SX V1 won't work on Vista but I won't buy vista either !!
Dan
Edited by techristian (09/05/07 09:29 PM)
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#1805867 - 09/06/07 05:44 AM
Re: Opinions on Steinberg Products
[Re: techristian]
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audiorulez
Gold Member
Registered: 06/20/07
Posts: 548
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The latest greatest thing often is just the opposite, and more and more software developers are foregoing betatesting to get a produst out to the paying public, and have those paying customers do the final beta, which IMHO is very unfair.
I make it habit to never go for anything new in software without doing indepth research and getting user comments, and always give a good 4-6 months of it being released before taking the plunge.
Plus like you say Dan, if it ain't broke, why try to fix it. If something is doing what I need it to do, I don't care if it's 10 versions old, I'm using it.
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#1819234 - 10/03/07 01:40 PM
Re: Opinions on Steinberg Products
[Re: audiorulez]
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zephonic
Gold Member
Registered: 10/06/05
Posts: 623
Loc: Nairobi, Kenya
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I used Nuendo 2.2 for years and switched to Cubase 4 last March. General consensus is that ProTools was made for engineers and Cubase for musicians. Nowadays their respective feature sets are nearly identical, but the key difference is that Steinberg products are native and do not require proprietary hardware to run properly.
Digidesign claims that their propietary hardware policy makes for more stable systems but in my years with Nuendo and now Cubase I've used hardware from Yamaha, MOTU, Emagic and Focusrite on both PC and Mac, and never ran into any serious problems. ProTools is good, but from what I have seen it is certainly not more stable! Also, it has limitations to the number of channels/tracks you can run simultaneously.
Between Cubase and Nuendo there are very few differences, most notably the more flexible signal routing architecture in Nuendo, and different sets of plug-ins.
Biggest problem with Steinberg is their after-sales support, not a positive experience for me. Maybe that will change now that Yamaha owns them.
I'd say their software has become very good in recent years and Cubase 4 is soooooo much better than SX (not in the least thanks to the Yamaha sounds). If you need that added routing flexibility, Nuendo is your bet, but if you can do without it, save yourself a 1000 bucks and go with Cubase.
And for file compatibility: try importing/exporting OMF's. Works for me.
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#1819263 - 10/03/07 02:56 PM
Re: Opinions on Steinberg Products
[Re: zephonic]
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audiorulez
Gold Member
Registered: 06/20/07
Posts: 548
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PTR software requires PT hardware for one simple reason: Antipiracy. Copy the software all you want, it's useless without the hardware.
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