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#1763970 - 06/08/07 01:54 AM Miles Davis' scale?
vicsant Offline
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Registered: 09/25/04
Posts: 320
Got a chance to watch the DVD docu of the life of Miles Davis the other night, and there was a clip where Chick was being interviewed.

Chick recallled an instance in the studio when Miles went up behind him and played three major triads: C, E, and Ab and told Chick to make a scale on just the notes of those three triads and use that to solo over the changes.

The notes of the scale come out to be:

C, Eb, E, G, Ab, B

Would this be a correct name for this scale?

Cmaj7(#2, b6)

Additional info:

Miles Davis studied classical music at Juilliard in 1945, although the movie didn't say how long he stayed there. Miles asked his father to enroll him in Juilliard under the guise of studying the classics, but his main reason for going to New York was so that he could go to all the jazz clubs :-)

Herbie Hancock joined Miles when he has only 22, together with Tony Williams (then only 17), with Ron Carter and Wayne Shorter.
And these guys truly smoked!!

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#1763972 - 06/08/07 02:26 AM Re: Miles Davis' scale? [Re: vicsant]
dougmck Offline
Member

Registered: 04/20/07
Posts: 8
Loc: Australia
This is the 'augmented scale' - mentioned in a number of theory books - the roots of the triads (both minor and major) form an augmented triad.

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#1763990 - 06/08/07 03:39 AM Re: Miles Davis' scale? [Re: dougmck]
Dave Ferris Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 03/05/07
Posts: 4409
Loc: Glendale, Ca.
Check out my post a few days back re: books.

There's a whole book that is written about the augmented scale.

It's quite good!!
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#1763995 - 06/08/07 04:17 AM Re: Miles Davis' scale? [Re: Dave Ferris]
Dave Horne Offline
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Registered: 01/11/01
Posts: 9148
Loc: Vught, The Netherlands
You've heard this scale in film music when played descending - Db, C, A, G#, F, E, and so on.
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#1763998 - 06/08/07 04:39 AM Re: Miles Davis' scale? [Re: Dave Horne]
Phil W Offline
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Registered: 04/07/05
Posts: 12390
Loc: London, England
The augmented scale is a whole lot of fun. One nice aspect is that it works (in it's own way) against a regular major 7th chord so an interesting way to go outside.

I'm to print out that booklist, Dave!
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#1764246 - 06/08/07 12:39 PM Re: Miles Davis' scale? [Re: Phil W]
marino Offline
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Registered: 10/20/00
Posts: 7296
Loc: Rome, Italy
I hear Keith Jarrett using it quite a bit too.

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#1764323 - 06/08/07 03:33 PM Re: Miles Davis' scale? [Re: marino]
Dave Ferris Offline
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Registered: 03/05/07
Posts: 4409
Loc: Glendale, Ca.
Try using the B Augmented scale for a Cm(Maj7).

LH Voicing: Eb A D over C pedal.
RH Scale: B D Eb G Bb B
Try to play with 2 hands 1 octave apart (parallel octaves ala Phineas Newborn-Geoff Keezer-Oscar Peterson)
Try using this sound for the first 2 bars of Solar for example.

I had been playing this scale or a derivative of it for years without knowing the name of it. I knew the "sound" in my head but had no way of identifying it till I picked the Weiskopf book about 10 years ago.

The C Aug. Scale: C Eb E G Ab B C sounds nice for
C13+11, C7 Alt.(C7#5#9)or D half-diminshed 7.

Starting the scale on the second (or 3,4,5) note/degree and running the scale to the top and down is another way of familiarizing yourself with the sequence.

C Aug. starting on the 2nd degree:
UP: Eb E G Ab B C Eb Do this for at least 2 octaves.
Down: Eb C B Ab G E Eb.

Visualize the chord/voicing in your head while doing this.
Or play the LH voicing against the scale.
Take all 4 of the Augmented scales:
1)C,E,Ab
2)Db,F,A
3)D,F#,Bb
4)Eb,G,B
start them on 2nd,3,4,5 degrees 2-3 octaves up and down.
Keep saying (outloud or to yourself) or visualizing those chords while you're doing this!

These are a few examples of using the Augmented scale.
It's very tricky, similiar to the diminished scale in its symmetrical quality. Like the Diminished scale, it takes years of practice and experience to internalize and make it sound musical, not like you are just running scales.

This is my Maiden Voyage at trying to verbalize this stuff on the computer(so have mercy)....I feel like a fish out of water with no piano or manuscript paper to make my point. I hope it makes some sense.
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#1764326 - 06/08/07 03:39 PM Re: Miles Davis' scale? [Re: Dave Ferris]
Phil W Offline
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Registered: 04/07/05
Posts: 12390
Loc: London, England
Cheers, Dave, I've played around with sounds from it in solos without really analysing it, except by ear.

Is that right, using C augmented over C13#11? That seems odd on paper with the b13 and unflattened7? I'll have to play it and listen.

A bassplayer who uses this scale a bit is Matthew Garrison, he probably picked it up from one of the greats he has worked with.
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#1764350 - 06/08/07 04:16 PM Re: Miles Davis' scale? [Re: Phil W]
Dave Ferris Offline
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Registered: 03/05/07
Posts: 4409
Loc: Glendale, Ca.
Phil

You're right about initial impressions!

The B and the Ab are the "rub" on C7+11, as Jerry Bergonzi likes to to call it. However, using this scale frequently, the ear after awhile starts to get accustomed to this sound, subconsciously you start to hear the B and Ab as passing or approach tones,especially at up-tempo. Sorry man, that's the best verbalizing I can do without the piano.

Granted, it is a very modern sound and the sound might kind of bend your ears at first, especially if you're coming from straight be-bop harmony....Bird-Bud etc.. If you check out a lot of Brecker, Bob Berg, Mintzer, Bergonzi's stuff,(just to name a few) you'll find this scale with all its inversions are a huge part of that particular vocabulary.

The triads stacked make a great sound: C/E w/ inversions.
C/Ab w/ inversions.
You can also play minor triads against major triads: Cm/E...E/Cm
Or Aug. chords against each other Caug.(C,E,Ab)/Baug.(B,Eb,G)....great fun. make sure to use inversions.

Back to that C13+11....try the Bb, D or Gb Aug. scale over that....hmmmm...different sound....maybe better??...just different.
Bb Aug. = Bb Db D F Gb A Bb.

Again, I feel I'm at a disadvantage without the paper or piano but hopefully this helps.
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#1764389 - 06/08/07 05:17 PM Re: Miles Davis' scale? [Re: Dave Ferris]
Dave Ferris Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 03/05/07
Posts: 4409
Loc: Glendale, Ca.
You know that Bb Augmented scale ( Bb Db D F Gb A ) works as well over the first 2 bars of Solar. Cm, Cm7 or Cm6/9
W/ LH voicing: Eb A D or A D Eb G
In fact try extending 2 more bars over the Gm7/ C7.
It can be kind of a modal type sound till you hit the F maj.7.
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#1764422 - 06/08/07 06:08 PM Re: Miles Davis' scale? [Re: Dave Ferris]
Piano4U Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/12/07
Posts: 238
Loc: Cleveland, OH
Great stuff Dave! You really do a nice job of explaining it and making sense. 1/2 the time I have no idea what "in theory" I'm doing, just going for a certain sound. Your explanation gives me a chance to dissect and analyze some of my playing - hmmm, maybe not such a great idea after all. ;\) "Night in Tunisia" is another great tune that uses this scale.

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#1764427 - 06/08/07 06:28 PM Re: Miles Davis' scale? [Re: Piano4U]
Dave Ferris Offline
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Registered: 03/05/07
Posts: 4409
Loc: Glendale, Ca.
Roger, you sound great man, are you kidding!

If you say I'm making sense then I know I'm OK. Well that's good, maybe I have a new future.... Davey Aebersold!!

Yea, for the Eb7+11/Dm7,Dm6/9,Dm(Maj.7) vamp you could try the
F,A or Db Aug. scale......F Ab A C C# E

Sample LH voicing: (G C Db F) Eb7+11/ (F B E)Dm /
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#1764436 - 06/08/07 06:47 PM Re: Miles Davis' scale? [Re: Dave Ferris]
Piano4U Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/12/07
Posts: 238
Loc: Cleveland, OH
Thanks Dave. You are making perfect sense - there's a scary thought - and I'm understanding it - even scarier!

For the Eb7+11 I usually voice it in the LH (A C Db F). In fact I really like that voicing and use it a lot in various inversions. I then improvise outlining the chord tones using some approach notes so for example using the above voicing in LH my RH would play this:

C A Bb C Db F Ab A C A Bb

The direction is - C descend to the A then ascending up to the 3rd C then descend to the A and back up to Bb.

If I want to get real fancy I go:

Db A C A Bb C Db F Ab A C A Bb

descend from Db to A ascend to C descend to A
then the rest as in the first example

Does that make sense Mr. Aebersold? \:\)


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#1764445 - 06/08/07 07:33 PM Re: Miles Davis' scale? [Re: Piano4U]
Dave Ferris Offline
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Registered: 03/05/07
Posts: 4409
Loc: Glendale, Ca.
Yea I like that voicing w/ the A in there, a very cool sound....I don't use it has much has I should. Thanks, I'll make a note of that one.

When I can't see the line written out w/ the lines and spaces, it's like reading or translating Latin to me. HaHa....I'm SO SLOW.....Duh....let's see.....

I do need a program where you can write stuff out. Is that available only on a Mac? Is this the Finale program that you have to take a month out of your life to learn?
When it comes computers I'm the biggest idiot on the planet.
Don't you have to have a music specific keyboard? Can I get some kind of music writing proram for this PC?
Inquiring minds want to know!

Busch did a little fragment from a Joey D.solo. That's looks like what what I need.
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#1764448 - 06/08/07 07:38 PM Re: Miles Davis' scale? [Re: Dave Ferris]
Phil W Offline
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Registered: 04/07/05
Posts: 12390
Loc: London, England
 Originally Posted By: Dave Ferris
Phil

You're right about initial impressions!

The B and the Ab are the "rub" on C7+11, as Jerry Bergonzi likes to to call it. However, using this scale frequently, the ear after awhile starts to get accustomed to this sound, subconsciously you start to hear the B and Ab as passing tones,especially at up-tempo. Sorry man, that's the best verbalizing I can do without the piano.



Thanks, that helped. That was my impression without the piano. When I played it on piano, it made sense and sounded great - very modern.

Yeah. Like many bassists, I am not exactly up to this degree of theoretical understanding so I enjoy trying to grab a little here at KC. I learned the standard bebop approach and then by ear and the Levine type approach.

Only now starting to realise a little of where Michael Brecker and others were/are taking the music.

Thanks for the explanations, very cool!


Phil

P.S. Hope you don't mind me hanging out in the 'deep end'. I'm playing some of this on bass and piano and it's really opening up ideas.


Edited by Phil W (06/08/07 07:50 PM)
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#1764466 - 06/08/07 08:02 PM Re: Miles Davis' scale? [Re: Phil W]
Dave Ferris Offline
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Registered: 03/05/07
Posts: 4409
Loc: Glendale, Ca.
Brother Phil, without the deep end, a lot of our implied harmony/voicings would not sound so happening. The color-sound-effect would totally be missing. All of these complex inversions,cluster chords that I play are dependent on the root.
Every top notch player I know, whether it's sax, trumpet, bass, or even drums, play piano. A lot of them, very good!

The bass players that don't....well,I just don't hook up w/ them as well.
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#1764617 - 06/09/07 10:22 AM Re: Miles Davis' scale? [Re: Dave Ferris]
delirium Offline
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Registered: 06/09/05
Posts: 3099
Loc: Earth, NJ
 Originally Posted By: Dave Ferris

I had been playing this scale or a derivative of it for years without knowing the name of it. I knew the "sound" in my head but had no way of identifying it till I picked the Weiskopf book about 10 years ago.


and that's the proper approach
I don't give a damn how scales are named, since there are no scales.
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#1764663 - 06/09/07 12:44 PM Re: Miles Davis' scale? [Re: delirium]
Phil W Offline
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Registered: 04/07/05
Posts: 12390
Loc: London, England
True enough. But otherwise we couldn't discuss them without sound samples in all the posts.
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#1764733 - 06/09/07 04:34 PM Re: Miles Davis' scale? [Re: Phil W]
delirium Offline
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Registered: 06/09/05
Posts: 3099
Loc: Earth, NJ
 Originally Posted By: Phil W
True enough. But otherwise we couldn't discuss them without sound samples in all the posts.


that is actually great idea, music is all about hearing anyway isn't it?
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#1764735 - 06/09/07 04:42 PM Re: Miles Davis' scale? [Re: delirium]
Phil W Offline
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Registered: 04/07/05
Posts: 12390
Loc: London, England
Yes, actually it's a better idea than I realised.
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#1764757 - 06/09/07 06:14 PM Re: Miles Davis' scale? [Re: Phil W]
WWW Offline
Gold Member

Registered: 07/07/04
Posts: 875
Loc: NYC
THIS IS GREAT! this forum should spend more time discussing MUSIC rather than gear. I know, because I am a real gear head / tone hound, but now, I am paying much more attention to the music these days. A great example: I saw ED ALSTROM (the organist for the NY Yankees) playing a miserable XB2 through a crummy bass amp at a crummy bar. His playing was so exciting, the gear was the last thing on anybody's mind.

BRAVO
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#1764896 - 06/10/07 08:40 AM Re: Miles Davis' scale? [Re: WWW]
delirium Offline
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 06/09/05
Posts: 3099
Loc: Earth, NJ
unfortunately I don't see an option for short attachment on this forum. So we cannot hum to the mike and share our sounds. ;\) External link is too bothersome plus not everybody has access to the web server. Motifator e.g. has such option for attachments.
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#1764925 - 06/10/07 10:17 AM Re: Miles Davis' scale? [Re: delirium]
Piano4U Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 05/12/07
Posts: 238
Loc: Cleveland, OH
Yes, that is too bad we can't attach files directly.
I did find this site:
http://bestsharing.com/
which allows quick, free and easy file hosting and downloading without having to register or provide an email address. You upload your file and then it gives you the URL link for download.
From their site, "There is a 125 MB file size limit on the free file uploads. Unused files are deleted after 45 days (time since the hosted file was last downloaded; files less than 5 MB in size are not deleted). All known filetypes are allowed to be uploaded."
So go ahead delirium, hum into that mic and upload the file so we can take a listen!

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