#1748474 - 05/09/07 03:22 PM
setting gain/volume
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Jersey Jack
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Hello all,
I have a Yamaha mixer, an older MG10, and I'm very confused about the markings on the gain and volume controls. Here's how they look:
channel gain knobs: there is a rectangle at about 10 o'clock on each channel's gain knob
channel volume knobs: there is a triangle at 3 o'clock on each channel's volume knob
master volume knob: here there is a triangle at 3 o'clock as well.
(to complete the picture, each channel's effect knob has a triangle at 1 o'clock)
These markings seem designed to suggest optimal settings, but if I in fact place gain to 10 o'clock, channel volume to 3 o'clock, and master volume to 3 o'clock the sound is way too loud--nothing but feedback, really.
So my question: If in fact these markings are meant to designate optimal settings, and if one cannot use all three, where does one begin to turn things down? Should I start by setting channel gain at 10 o'clock and then work my way forward to master volume, or should I start by setting master volume to 3 o'clock and work my way back to lower channel volume and channel gain settings?
In other words, how is one supposed to understand and use these markings?
I hope this is not too confusing!
Thanks,
Jersey Jack
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Jersey Jack
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#1748739 - 05/10/07 12:40 AM
Re: setting gain/volume
[Re: Jersey Jack]
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J.J. Blair
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Jack, I downloaded the manual and perused it for ya. The area you are talking about on the channels appears to be what should be 0db when you are using a line signal, or unity gain, so to speak. This would be the suggested starting point when running line signal into those channels, but not the requisite position to make things sound better.
In the case of the master channel, this is also probably just a recommended starting point.
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#1748895 - 05/10/07 11:07 AM
Re: setting gain/volume
[Re: J.J. Blair]
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Jersey Jack
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Thanks!
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#1751539 - 05/15/07 09:52 AM
Re: setting gain/volume
[Re: Jersey Jack]
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BrianK
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It's good the help you find a level. If you are mixing, you can also figure out your own best settings this way.
Set the channel volume (fader) where you'd LIKE it to be - usually this is near the top - or 80% of it. This leaves a little room for pushing up as the mix goes by. As this is a resistor, you don't want it down low, or it's losing signal.
Then consider the input/preamp level control; It needs to PUSH the right amount of sound through the channel. If it's too low - you'll need to boost later on and might be end up with a noisy signal. If it's too high, it might clip/distort the EQ/channel/output.
For these first two, I'd set the fader/volume knob where you like it, but kinda higher rather than lower. For the input/preamp level, try sending signal through this and seeing how hot it should be with the volume of the lower fader set already. You don't want to boost too much, but a good strong signal coming INTO your channel is good all around!
Finally, the final master volume can be set high as possible. I bet if you listen to these two options, you'll like it better high. (1) Mix music with the channel faders real high and the master fader low = usually sounds clipped and/or loses highs and lows when the Master fader is low. (2) Set the channel faders lower and keep the Master Fader high as it can. I bet the sound (for most mixers) is clearer and has more bass depth.
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#1757704 - 05/26/07 06:44 PM
Re: setting gain/volume
[Re: BrianK]
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Rit
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(2) Set the channel faders lower and keep the Master Fader high as it can. I bet the sound (for most mixers) is clearer and has more bass depth.
I second that.
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Confucious say, "Man who lay girl on hill, not on level"
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#1800940 - 08/27/07 06:49 AM
Re: setting gain/volume
[Re: Rit]
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Sorayna
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Registered: 08/27/07
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:)You're right...
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#1802904 - 08/30/07 07:11 PM
Re: setting gain/volume
[Re: Sorayna]
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BrianK
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It's a common trouble when mixing; you turn up things one by one. Then suddenly they're all LOUD and you hafta turn down the mix fader or you'll overload your 2-track.
BUT as we mentioned above, when your mix fader is down lower, you lose lows and highs. So maybe start with the channel faders MUCH lower than you think and then work normally. They will creep up to a level that is good, and the mix fader stays at top...
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#1818436 - 10/02/07 07:57 AM
Re: setting gain/volume
[Re: BrianK]
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audiorulez
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Set the master fader to 0.
Set the individual input gains so that peaks are just below clipping.
Set the channel faders as needed for a mix w/o overloading the output of the mix buss.
DO NOT turn down the master fader, turn down the individual channels. Turning down the master fader when you're mix is too hot doesn't solve the issue of the channel inputs to the mix overloading the summing amps. Keep the master fader at 0, and then you know what's going into the mix buss, as well as what's coming out.
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#1819134 - 10/03/07 10:57 AM
Re: setting gain/volume
[Re: audiorulez]
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Farview
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Yup, those triangles are where unity gain is. That is where you are not adding or attenuating the signal.
Here's what you do:
1. Set the main output fader and the channel fader to unity
2. Play the signal into the channel
3. Set the channel gain so the meter reads 0dbVU on the meter
Now that you have the channel properly gain staged, do the same with the rest of the channels.
Now you are ready to mix. Use the channel volumes to mix the song.
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#1819268 - 10/03/07 03:03 PM
Re: setting gain/volume
[Re: Farview]
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audiorulez
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But don't put the channel faders @0 to mix. 0db+0db=+6db!!!!!!!
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#1819287 - 10/03/07 04:19 PM
Re: setting gain/volume
[Re: audiorulez]
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Farview
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But don't put the channel faders @0 to mix. 0db+0db=+6db!!!!!!!
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#1819464 - 10/04/07 06:45 AM
Re: setting gain/volume
[Re: Farview]
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audiorulez
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So according to your theory then, I could put lets say pink noise into 24 channels, put them all to 0db, and the master at 0db, and the meters will read 0db.
Tell you what, you try that and see what happens.
You have confused yourself, as you actually agree with me there, as what I am talking about is summing 0db with 0db at the mix buss.
Every channel adds to the mix, the more faders you put up, the higher your master meter/output goes. This is a primary issue with new engineers, they put all their faders at 0db, then lower the master fader to compensate for the summing, instead of lowering the channel faders. While there is some forgiving in modern digital mixing, there have been many debates that keeping the proper gain staging throughout akin to analog mixing sounds much better than relying on the digital headroom.
Unfortunately most all software and hardware mixers have eliminated the mix buss pfl, which allows the engineer to monitor the level going into the summing buss. Thus the need to keep that master fader at 0db w/o plugins or inserts in order to be able to monitor the mix buss level accurately.
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#1819485 - 10/04/07 07:41 AM
Re: setting gain/volume
[Re: audiorulez]
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Farview
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After re-reading what you posted, I missed the "to mix" part.
I was talking about setting the gain on individual channels on a mixer that only has meters on the main out. That's why all the faders need to be at unity (the channel and main)so that the meters effectively read the signal level coming out of the preamp. You started talking about mixing and I didn't catch that. Lexdisia is a terrible disease.
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#1819699 - 10/04/07 12:22 PM
Re: setting gain/volume
[Re: Farview]
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audiorulez
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After re-reading what you posted, I missed the "to mix" part.
I was talking about setting the gain on individual channels on a mixer that only has meters on the main out. That's why all the faders need to be at unity (the channel and main)so that the meters effectively read the signal level coming out of the preamp. You started talking about mixing and I didn't catch that. Lexdisia is a terrible disease.
What you seem to be missing here is if there is more than one fader up, with a nominal 0dbu signal to each, the summing amp will quickly be overloaded.
If this is your only method of metering, note that ONE and ONLY ONE fader/channel at a time can be on. Otherwise what you are viewing at the master meters is the sum of all the channels, following the 0db=0db=6db statement.
This is why when mixing you do NOT put all the faders at 0 and then lower the master, you lower the faders, thus lowering the level into the summing bus, and keeping it below the point it overloads. the master meters DO NOT show this level, they read POST master fader, unless you have one of very few consoles that have the very useful tool of PFL on the master faders.
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#1819805 - 10/04/07 02:47 PM
Re: setting gain/volume
[Re: audiorulez]
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Farview
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What you seem to be missing here is if there is more than one fader up, with a nominal 0dbu signal to each, the summing amp will quickly be overloaded.
If this is your only method of metering, note that ONE and ONLY ONE fader/channel at a time can be on. Otherwise what you are viewing at the master meters is the sum of all the channels, following the 0db=0db=6db statement.
This is why when mixing you do NOT put all the faders at 0 and then lower the master, you lower the faders, thus lowering the level into the summing bus, and keeping it below the point it overloads. the master meters DO NOT show this level, they read POST master fader, unless you have one of very few consoles that have the very useful tool of PFL on the master faders.
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#1820037 - 10/05/07 06:36 AM
Re: setting gain/volume
[Re: Farview]
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Southside
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The whole idea behind the "set the channel faders at unity" method - which is a VERY common method, BTW, which I use all the time myself - is not to set the final mix levels, but rather to set up good gain stage levels within the channel strips themselves.
Initially setting the channel fader at unity calibrates the VU meters to reflect the signal level coming through the soloed channel without any boost or cut at the end of the strip. Therefore one can use the meters to set up a good input gain that's not too quiet or too loud at the top of the strip, and you know you have good line level going through the backbone of the channel strip.
Do this one at a time for all the strips, and you now have a board with good quality signals going through it that's ready to mix. When mixing, you then pull individual faders down below unity or reset them all to -inf and push them up (whatever works for you, though I prefer to work from the "faders-up" position myself; see below.) Either way, one is works with lower channel strip fader levels when mixing so that the summers do not get saturated. Nobody is saying that you leave channel faders up and mix with the mains.
his method also allows you to do the good ol' "faders-up" listen after tracking that many Big Boy engineers love. After the tracking is done, when you do your first rough listen at "faders up" (all set to unity), you know you're listening to the tracking and not the board because you know your strips are all properly calibrated to 0VU on the input.
G.
Edited by Southside (10/05/07 06:45 AM)
Edit Reason: Rarely is the first draft perfect :)
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#1820080 - 10/05/07 08:17 AM
Re: setting gain/volume
[Re: Southside]
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audiorulez
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Another good point, make sure if you use this method, that your channel eq is flat, pan is center, and any inserts are bypassed.
Since most all consoles these days have a pfl function(at least for inputs, this method is not very commonly used.
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#1820115 - 10/05/07 09:29 AM
Re: setting gain/volume
[Re: audiorulez]
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Farview
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The OP's Yamaha MG10 is one of those mixers without a PFL. That's why I explained it the way i did.
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#1820362 - 10/05/07 11:07 PM
Re: setting gain/volume
[Re: Farview]
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audiorulez
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Yes I think we all realized that first go round.
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#1823128 - 10/11/07 08:41 AM
Re: setting gain/volume
[Re: audiorulez]
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BrianK
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Once again, I gotta move away from theory into practical. Having mixed records professionally for a LONG time, I think this stuff is well-learned.
Set the MIX fader HIGH - I garuantee you it WILL sound better than a lower setting. It IS a resistor and passes signal cleanly when up high - even ABOVE the recommended Zero setting. Note how this works: Even if you think "That's too high above unity gain, recommended zero" - then you can mix as you like on the input faders. You can do the NORMAL thing which is bring UP the parts you want to hear more of, add compression, add effects - all these things raise the gain into the Master Fader. You don't have to be so careful about NOT raising the Left side faders. As your mix grows (I start with the Input Faders at about HALF - far below what is recommended) it all comes up naturally and ends up just about right.
You MAY even have to drop the Master MIX Fader down a BIT when these things come up - but not much. And a higher Master MIX Fader IS a better-sounding mix!
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#1829422 - 10/24/07 09:12 AM
Re: setting gain/volume
[Re: BrianK]
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audiorulez
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IF you set your imput gains properly and set your channel faders all above 0 you'll overload the mix summing amp and it will sound like sh*t, period.
Leave the master fader at 0 so you can monitor what's going into the mix buss, since the metering is post master fader. This is both the theoretical and the practical approach.
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