#1735982 - 04/16/07 09:21 PM
Tip #1 - Work with good musicians
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Billster
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Registered: 04/16/04
Posts: 5791
Loc: Wilmington, MA
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Well, I had an initial rehearsal on Saturday to get a little trio together for some gigs to promote my little CD project (see sig  ) These are guys I've played with off and on for 15-20 years. I had a handful of tunes from the disc, and a handful of other tunes that fit the format.
Some of the tunes are brand new - not fully arranged, just a melody and some chord symbols. I threw one of those on the stand, played down the melody, explained the vibe, and the guys caught right into it. It sounded exactly like I imagined it would the first time we played it. All it needs is a title.
So, Tip #1 - work with good musicians.
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#1739632 - 04/23/07 04:00 PM
Re: Tip #1 - Work with good musicians
[Re: Billster]
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Jeff Klopmeyer
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Registered: 10/13/00
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Loc: Redondo Beach,CA,UNITED STATES
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It's like the "secret" to good cooking: you start with great ingredients and it's pretty hard to screw up from there. I find that while other good musicians might not share 100% of my tastes or performing styles, it's always easier to have that basic starting point than to have to also coach someone's musical skills at the same time.
If you're a serious player, life's just too damn short to work with bad musicians.
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#1739897 - 04/24/07 12:31 AM
Re: Tip #1 - Work with good musicians
[Re: Jeff Klopmeyer]
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jay da cop
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Loc: Waldoboro, Maine
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AMEN!
Jay
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#1745195 - 05/02/07 05:15 PM
Re: Tip #1 - Work with good musicians
[Re: jay da cop]
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fingertalkin
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Loc: Dumfries VA
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Ah fellas, I am so disappointed in your responses. I am not the most technical player, don't have a great ear (good, but not great) but I can hold my own. Every now and again I need help finding the right chord, but then again I am not working on originals either. Unless you two were born with a guitar and a keyboard in your hands.....or in front of you then you were born, then you have been in my shoes too. I personally feel that when Billster pulled these guys together for this project of his, he knew already what to expect from these people from having worked with them for 15-20 YEARS. I would rather have good chemistry than great musicianship. Good musicians with great chemistry can make great music. My $.02 worth.
Shane
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#1745231 - 05/02/07 06:19 PM
Re: Tip #1 - Work with good musicians
[Re: fingertalkin]
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Jeff Klopmeyer
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Loc: Redondo Beach,CA,UNITED STATES
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Shane, I have to both agree and disagree with your sentiment.
Chemistry is crucial, but when you have a large discrepency between the basic musicianship of various people trying to play together, it is ultimately frustrating for both of them. My recommendation is to try and pair yourself with other musicians at a level similar to your own.
Think of it like a golf foursome. If two of the guys are really bad or inexperienced, they're holding the other guys back. No one can enjoy the round as much as if they were paired with similar players, even if its non-competitive.
I have never been so annoyed with a band situation than ones where I have a poor bass player or drummer involved. Likewise, I've known when I was the one above my head, and knew to bow out gracefully. In any case, I enjoy working with people of my own caliber, which is usually the start of the great chemistry to whch you refer. I don't think you can develop that chemistry if one or more guys are holding the others back in a band.
Edited by Jeff Klopmeyer (05/02/07 06:20 PM)
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#1745377 - 05/03/07 06:25 AM
Re: Tip #1 - Work with good musicians
[Re: Jeff Klopmeyer]
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jay da cop
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Loc: Waldoboro, Maine
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I agree with Jeff, with one caveat. Jam bands are a place to get with musicians of varying levels and gleen a thing or 2 without stepping on someone's livelyhood. Know what I mean? I have been playing in bands for over 30 years, and some were good, some were great, and others were mediocre. The common denominator was the level of musicianship. It's like the "weakest link" theory. So, in that regard I have to agree. Also, great chemistry does not make the music better. Better musicians make the music better. Sorry. Too much time on the road to just let that go.
There is a light at the end of the tunnel - practice. Take advantage of lessons, personal practice time, take classes, find others to jam with - those are how you get better, not by finding out who your "friends" are. I have made great music with a lead guitarist that I nearly threw off the stage and over a balcony one night. But that's another story (actually, I think it was posted some time ago in band nightmares). Please don't get discouraged. That is not our intent. We are just trying to show you that there are differences between perception and reality. Perception - great chemistry makes music better. Reality - better musicians make music better. So, the choice is yours. My recommendation, again, is to take advantage of every opportunity to learn more about our craft. I have been doing this for about 40 years, and just signed up for online classes through Berklee. I still have a lot to learn, and I have played in every type of band - garage, private parties, semi-pro, pro, corporate gigs, wedding, pick-up, jam, you name it. I still have SO much to learn, but I want to be able to "converse" credibly in several different styles, so I learn.
Jay
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#1745771 - 05/03/07 05:34 PM
Re: Tip #1 - Work with good musicians
[Re: jay da cop]
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fingertalkin
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I didn't exactly mean that chemistry is what makes good music. I did not effectively communicate my point. I feel Chemistry can be good and bad. When our original lead guitarist quit halfway through a gig, we had the best set that I have played to date with them when I talked him into finishing the night. Bad chemistry worked out well. The energy was crazy. His replacement wasn't very good. We played the next night with him and it went very well considering we as a group knew 10 total songs to cover 4 hours. We thought we instantly clicked and we hired him. Bad idea. He had the biggest ego I have ever seen. The problem was he wasn't very good. On stage, he had the dear in the headlights look on his face and just killed songs and couldn't roll with a mistake. An example is our singer went straight into a chorus and skipped the second verse. We all caught it and went with it. He couldn't figure out what the hell to do. Anyway, he would talk about how bad we (the other members) were to the patrons. He didn't work out.
Now, we have this freak of nature who is self taught and is great. The best ear and time of anyone I have heard or played with. But he is very technical and not much feel. He is leaps and bounds better than I. Like I said in my last post, I can hold my own. I might not give myself enough credit, but I am no phenom by any stretch of the imagination. Practices are rough because of the strict regimen he puts on us. I like that though, because we are very well prepared for our gigs. Practice is that, practice. Get in, play it correctly, get out. It is not supposed to be like playing a show. The better prpared we our for shows, the better time we have. No worrying over who knows what and forgetting stuff and whatever.
My point is this: what do I have to gain from playing with people of my own caliber? I have become so much better just over the last month or so that we have the new guy. I am inspired by how well he plays, and I want to be like that.
I feel the golf analogy. I had a 2 handicap way back when. It was hard to play with someone hitting it in the woods all day. Not for the fact the he hit them in the woods, but the time to find them. It was hard to get in a groove.
I am going to change your perception/reality analogy Jay:
Perception: great chemistry makes music better AND better musicians make music better.
Reality: great musicians with great chemistry make great music.
I did not mean to start this debate, just was a little surprised by your initial responses. Your replies to mine are more what I expect from the two of you:)
Shane
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#1747850 - 05/08/07 01:30 PM
Re: Tip #1 - Work with good musicians
[Re: fingertalkin]
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jay da cop
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I hope you didn't take offense to what we wrote. There is merit in all the posts, including yours. I see your point better, and will add this - the way to a better show is to get to a place where practice is like putting on your show. This will lend itself to smooth transitions, better rehearsed beginnings and endings, segues, you know what I mean? This is hard to do in the initial stages as everyone is still learning the material and how to work together. That is a good thing, and vital to success. You just cannot dismiss the preparation for the show. When your practices are at that point, find a way to work in new tunes to stay fresh, and watch the chemistry take shape. You will be more comfortable with each other and your individual and collective places in the group, and you can feed off each other. That is where talent, experience and chemistry all come together and lend themselves to a great show.
Again, and I think I speak for Jeff too, we did not mean offense, we were just offering our viewpoints from years on the road and our experiences good and bad. This is also how you learn. As a wise man once said, if you don't learn from history you are doomed to repeat it.
There is nothing wrong with finding others of a higher caliber to play alongside. Watch them, learn from them, but also watch them for signs of getting disgruntled or bored. Again, I am not trying to put you or your group down, but this can happen all too easily when there is someone that shines above the rest. They can take the attitude that they are being held back. I am not saying this will happen, but it has in the past all too often. Stay open in your communication, and this may be headed off.
Best of luck, and keep practicing. Speaking of which, I got to get to practicing myself if I am gonna submit to KC13.
Cheers
Jay
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#1758013 - 05/27/07 04:55 PM
Re: Tip #1 - Work with good musicians
[Re: jay da cop]
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fingertalkin
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I am not offended. Maybe a little quick in my posting. I definitely see what you mean. We don't practice very well and it shows. The drummer never practices on his own. He just doesn't have the space. It is hard for me to lock in a groove with him. He plays the songs differently every time we play them. The singer can belt it out, the guitarist is very good, I can hold my own with what I have to work with. It is definitely the drummer holding us back. Only problem is that the drummer and singer are married, probably a package deal. Oh well, it is still fun.
Shane
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#1758214 - 05/28/07 08:37 AM
Re: Tip #1 - Work with good musicians
[Re: fingertalkin]
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jay da cop
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Shane, I will admit that the fact that the drummer (the weak link) and the singer (one of the strongest links) being married is gonna be a problem. If not now, then eventually. Experience talking. I was once in a band where the keyboard player was married to one of the backing singers. She got disgruntled because the band was getting popular and she was spending 3 weekends a month travelling, and there were 2 small children at home. When she had enough she assumed the keyboard player would just leave with her. Things got tense. The keyboard player stayed with them for a few more months but things were getting tense at home. He finally left. OK, I will admit - "I" finally left. It was my wife. I love my wife, and she is a really good singer, but I will NEVER work in a band with her again. If she wants to record, I am there for her. If she goes on tour, I will support her, but will most likely NOT play in her band. Been there, done that, have the scars... I mean t-shirt. The kids are nearly grown, but I don't need that aggravation.
You, as a band (very important), have to confront the drummer. If he really sucks, then there are a few decisions you (collectively) will have to make. 1-You can encourage him to practice and/or take lessons. Turn it into a thing that all the band does, and it can't hurt to take lessons anyway. This will also take the stigma off of him and his lack of commitment. 2-You can live with the way things are, but your discouragement will not change. Trust me. 3-Someone leaves. Do not use ultimatums. These backfire, and YOU end up the outcast. But, either you or he need to go. Make sure you have band backing before you get to this step if you are getting rid of him. You may just want to bow out.
Here's the bottom line. Music is supposed to be fun. Evaluate the pros and cons, talk it over and make a decision. If it isn't fun it's a job, and we already have at least one of those. Get to a place where it's fun again or you will lose interest, and that would be tragic.
Good luck
Jay
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#1760765 - 06/01/07 04:27 PM
Re: Tip #1 - Work with good musicians
[Re: jay da cop]
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fingertalkin
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That is/was a tough situation with your wife. I thought it would be cool to do something like that with my wife. I guess though, it would definitely have to be like a recreational type thing. Jamming in the basement or whatever. If we ever became successful because of her, I will honestly admit, I would probably be very jealous.
Anyhoo, sorry, I always like to use that:), the drummer is definitely holding us back. The lead guitarist is getting more and more vocal about what he thinks the drummer needs to do. The sad thing is that the place where we practice, our keyboardists house, has a full kit that he can play anytime he wants. The keyboardist is a drummer as well. (on a side note, if I wasn't so invested to learning and playing bass, I would definitely go for the keys). The dude just seems burnt out. I get the feeling from him that he wants out or needs an extended break. We had a round of emails over the last few days about practicing. He (the drummer) thought that we shouldn't because we are playing 7 or 8 times this month. So for the rest of us that want to move on, that means no new material or working on the same stupid mistakes that we keep making. I finally put my foot down on Wed. and said I am tired of putting forth a lot of energy trying to push us forward like everyone says they want, and then he backs down when it is time to.
So we finally agree to practice on Thurs. and I get the phone call that morning from his wife about how he hurt his back on Tues. and won't be able to play. He does have a history of back problems, but it will be interesting to see how miraculous of a comeback he will make by Sat. They value my opinion, we 3 are the core of the band, so I may just have to talk to them to see what is going on. It sucks because we could be damn good if he would just put forth a little effort. I will keep you informed.
Shane
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#1772302 - 06/26/07 05:28 PM
Re: Tip #1 - Work with good musicians
[Re: Billster]
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mcstrum
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Registered: 06/24/07
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I think it is basically a crap shoot whether things jell or not. I have had some initial jams to try and work in new musicians in the past that were freakin awesome the first couple goes but then 2 or 3 sessions into it things fall apart.
On the flip side, the best bass player I ever made music with sounded like total...well ya know. But after about 3 weeks of practicing the songs with him and letting him get comfortable brought out the inner bass player, and he was excellent.
Musician ship out the window, you have to be able to get along to make really good stuff that the crowd will enjoy. They can tell when you don't like each other and will probably get turned off by that vibe.
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