#1725921 - 03/30/07 11:51 AM
Equipment
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blue angus
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Registered: 02/16/07
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Hey all, new jack here...
I've been an closet acoustic guitar player for about 25 years and been working a real job in that time and now that retirement approaches I've been talking with a bud about possibly doin some jamming electric wise.
My question, could someone give me a brief over view of amplification, what gets plugged into what, what gets miked etc.
(Basically, a PA set up should we ever get that far)
I know that this is a profoundly ignorant question but I am profoundly ignorant with lack of experience due to lifes curveballs...I havent had an opportunity to learn the most basic of electronic amplification...
Thanks in advance and all barbs are welcome too!!!!
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#1726102 - 03/30/07 04:26 PM
Re: Equipment
[Re: blue angus]
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RicBassGuy
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Registered: 02/02/05
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Loc: Metro Detroit, MI
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Hey blue angus, welcome to the forums! 
Ok, I'm making some guesses based on the information you've given. Essentially you'll be performing as a duo: you and your bud. You have an acoustic guitar. What does your bud have? Hopefully at least one of you will be singing; harmonies would be even better if you both sing.
Now, what about your guitar? I'm assuming it is not electric/acoustic, so there's no jack to plug in. In this case you can mike your guitar. For live performance something along the lines of a Shure SM57 should do fine. Keep in mind that miking acoustic instruments on stage can be tricky due to feedback. Putting the mains (PA speaker cabinets) at the front of the stage, such that they are directed away from the microphone, should minimize feedback. (It's still possible to pick up reflections under less than ideal circumstances.)
The other route for your guitar is to install an acoustic pickup, such as those offered by Fishman. This will allow you to plug your guitar directly into an amplifier instead of using a mike (and at least minimize feedback from the guitar).
Now, with a pickup in your guitar you can plug into a small acoustic guitar amp or keyboard amp, or even the PA. Since you'll just be a duo I'd recommend plugging into your PA for now so you don't have to lug around so much equipment. If you want a little more control over how your guitar sounds you can use an acoustic modelling device (e.g. Korg AX10A).
You'll need a vocal mike (or two). Something along the lines of a Shure SM58 should be fine for live vocals.
Next you need a PA. These come in three basic flavors: powered mixer, powered cabs, and modular. In the modular system each component is a separate piece: mixer, power amp, and cabs. A powered mixer combines a mixer and power amp in one package. A powered cab is a speaker cabinet with a built-in power amp. You can add additional components, but you'll need at least these basic three. Everybody has their own system preference.
The mikes (and optionally instruments) plug into the mixer, the mixer into the power amp, and the power amp into the cabs.
For smaller venues you should be able to get by with a PA "package", which is typically a powered mixer with cabs. Sometimes these come with other things, too, like microphones, cables and stands.
I like the diagrams Crown supplies to help visualize PA systems: KLONK HERE. In the simpler band setup they've added a dual (i.e. stereo) graphic EQ; probably its main advantage is to allow you to increase the overall loudness by lowering frequencies that are feeding back. Your power amp doesn't have to be stereo, but most people run a minimum of two cabs (mains) anyway. (The more complex example includes subwoofers and monitors [cabs that point towards the band so they can hear a mix of what is being sent to the mains].)
In summary, you could get a very basic PA package with 4 inputs (2 vocals and 2 guitars), a minimum 100 W power amp, and 2 cabs (the less expensive ones are usually 2-way, horn/tweeter plus woofer, which will project better when mounted on stands). Add as many mikes as you need, then add the appropriate cables and stands. This should work for most smaller venues such as coffee houses and the such (where acoustic music is typically found). Larger venues should have their own, larger PA systems.
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#1726418 - 03/31/07 10:34 AM
Re: Equipment
[Re: RicBassGuy]
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Trill
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Registered: 04/09/05
Posts: 1283
Loc: Southwestern Ohio
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Welcome B.A. (sounds like the A team  )
For a small acoustic gig I would look at the Bose Pas.Great sound,convenient. If you both sing it may require an additional unit,its somewhat pricey. But if you look at the simplicity and the sound quality and the savings on what you won't have to buy,I think it is well worth it.
click here to see
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#1726640 - 03/31/07 07:31 PM
Re: Equipment
[Re: Trill]
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blue angus
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Registered: 02/16/07
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Ric and Trill thanks a mill!
Sorry for any delay in acknowledging your fantastic responses..
I guess I didnt get into much detail regarding our plans because I honestly didnt expect a quick reply...
I actually have a few electrics and a bass believe it or not along with a fender stage 100 guitar amp and a crate mxb15 bass amp...I've just never found the time(family/job) to use them ...
The other dude is a drummer and we are beginning to noodle around...He's looking to pull in other musicians and I realized that my lack of real world experience with real musicians with the attendant accumulated knowledge was going be a weakness!!
Anyway, the links were very helpful...The one additional question I have is, what is a "power amp" vs. say a guitar amp.
Thanks again for your time!!
BA (pity the fool)
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#1727157 - 04/01/07 07:32 PM
Re: Equipment
[Re: blue angus]
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Trill
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Loc: Southwestern Ohio
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B.A.
You have a lot to learn , and I'm not the best person to explain this because ,I was like you about 7 yrs ago and still don't know it all. But, here goes, lets use our mods pic of his band as an example, keep in mind this is a full and a no cut corners setup.We even kidded Jeff about the amount of equipment.If I get anything wrong ,I'm sure I will be corrected,and hopefully so
The mains are on the poles. they need the Power amp to make then work.
The subs provide the lower frequencies (on the ground)
The smaller boxes pointed back at the band members are the monitors.(Jeff"s singer has lots of monitors ) This is so you can hear whats going on coming back to you.
You'll need cables to run from the subs,mains and monitors, mikes
You'll need a mixing board to get everyones levels even.
You'll have to know how many spots or plugins you'll need on your board.
You obviously need mikes and cables
Take notice of the work involved to set this up and tear it down
This is going to cost a lot of money  ,You can find bands or people who quit who want to sell out for a better price.
My job was the "cable " guy since I started out knowing nothing and still feel that way.Jeffs band does a very neat job of running cables. 
You might want to hire a sound guy to do it all or work a deal that you will help with the setup and tear down with the intentions of learning the basics until you buy your own unit.
You'll need to learn how to control your sound with the board
Edited by Trill (04/01/07 08:04 PM)
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#1727270 - 04/02/07 12:59 AM
Re: Equipment
[Re: blue angus]
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RicBassGuy
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The one additional question I have is, what is a "power amp" vs. say a guitar amp.
A guitar amp typically will have both a preamp and power amp in one box, called a "head". (If the box also has speakers it's a "combo".) The preamp takes the relatively weak electric signal from the guitar and boosts it to "line level", or something similar. This stronger signal is what a power amp wants, and then it just makes it much, much stronger to drive the speakers.
So you couldn't plug a guitar directly into a power amp.
Most mixers will have mic preamps built in to each channel. You can plug a guitar into a mixer and use one of its preamps, but most people would use at least a DI direct box to do this.
A stand-alone power amp is typically stereo (but can be run "bridged mono") and puts out 1,000 W (500 W per channel) or more. Crown, Crest, Peavey, etc. all make power amps for PAs.
Some bass players will use a separate preamp and power amp instead of a head for their bass rigs. This gives them more head room than they could get with typical bass heads.
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#1728363 - 04/03/07 09:37 PM
Re: Equipment
[Re: RicBassGuy]
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Jeff Klopmeyer
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Registered: 10/13/00
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Loc: Redondo Beach,CA,UNITED STATES
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Hey Blue Angus, welcome.
Wow, there's a whole lot of info flying around in this thread! Lots of great stuff. I'm going to break it down in a wee bit more simple fashion, and excuse me if you're already aware of most of this stuff.
1. Guitar Player
Guitar player holds electric guitar. 1/4" instrument cable connects the guitar to the input of the guitar amp. Guitarist adjusts amp to liking in volume and tone, and plays.
2. Bass Player
Bass player holds electric bass guitar. 1/4" instrument cable connects the bass to input of the bass amp. Bassist adjusts amp to liking in volume and tone, and plays.
3. Keyboardist
Keyboard is on stand. Two 1/4" instrument cables connect the keyboard to the input of the PA mixer (see below). Keyboardist noodles through 500 sounds before going back to original one (just kidding, folks). 
4. Drummer
Hits things.
5. Singer/PA (they often come together)
Singer has microphone. XLR cable conects microphone to PA. Singer whines incessantly about not hearing themselves enough in the monitors (see below). PA is adjusted for volume of singer.
As described earlier, the typical band PA system consists of four elements at a minimum:
- Mixer
- Loudspeakers (2)
- Power Amplifier (note: these are built into "active loudspeakers")
- Monitor speakers (usually at least 2)
Oh, and a bunch of cables.
The singer's mic and the keyboard outputs go into the mixer's inputs. That is then connected to the amplifier, which goes to the speakers. To get an even better idea of this type of system (beyond the photo of my band with overkill PA), take a look below (this is one of many packages you can buy through just about any music/audio retailer):
In this case, the mixer and amplifier are in the same unit. Hope this is helpful.
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#1728492 - 04/04/07 06:07 AM
Re: Equipment
[Re: Jeff Klopmeyer]
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jay da cop
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Loc: Waldoboro, Maine
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Hey Jeff, I resemble that remark (hehehe). We keyboard players only have 500 sounds at our disposal if we have one older keyboard or one of the modest newer ones. I happen to have access to THOUSANDS! in my live rig (I've added softsynths recently to the 3 boards I use along with 3 modules). That could take some time. Fortunately I take the time to go through my sounds beforehand, and know what I like, and then tweak them to fit the "sound" of the song with the band. (Not to say I haven't thought about "auditioning" sounds as we go, just to be annoying, like the guitarist breaking into a Triumph moment, or the drummer suddenly finding the inspiration to play Wipeout or Toto's Africa or 50 Ways to Leave Your Lover, or the bass player losing his mind with the new Digitech BP200 at his feet, and endlessly tweaking sounds while we are supposed to be rehearsing ("oohhh this sounds just like ___", or "listen to this"), or the singer... don't even get me started there...)
And welcome aboard Blue Angus. We have fun, but there really is a lot to be gleaned here too.
Jay
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#1728924 - 04/04/07 08:56 PM
Re: Equipment
[Re: Jeff Klopmeyer]
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RicBassGuy
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I like hearing myself play. Except when I put a big ol' clam out there. Those I don't like to hear. Do they have monitors that can filter out the clams?
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#1729037 - 04/05/07 01:31 AM
Re: Equipment
[Re: RicBassGuy]
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jay da cop
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If there was a filter in the mains to turn the clams into an amazing musical passage, they would be able to charge a small fortune for it!
Jay
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#1729177 - 04/05/07 10:40 AM
Re: Equipment
[Re: jay da cop]
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Jeff Klopmeyer
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Hmmm, clam filter. I'll get right on that.
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#1729456 - 04/05/07 05:23 PM
Re: Equipment
[Re: Jeff Klopmeyer]
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randy clay
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Clams? You guys are playing the wrong kind of music.
It's a clam if you play the wrong note once. Do it again, and it's jazz..... You did it on purpose.
Side note, where are the smiley's?
_________________________
I'm trying to think but nuthin' happens....
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#1729889 - 04/06/07 11:58 AM
Re: Equipment
[Re: randy clay]
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jay da cop
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I will be the first to admit that I have been known, on the odd occasion, to play notes that were a bit outside of what I intended (I won't admit to making a mistake though). Actually, if I don't admit to it first, my bandmates will be sure to jump on the bandwagon and scream it for all to hear. Jazz was never quite my thing. It's not that I don't like it, I do, but it is not my strong point musically. I am an unabashed rocker, with ties in blues and pop.
And yeah, where did the smileys go?
Jay
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#1730138 - 04/06/07 08:54 PM
Re: Equipment
[Re: jay da cop]
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RicBassGuy
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[I always type them in anyway.]
Edited by RicBassGuy (04/06/07 08:54 PM)
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#1730465 - 04/07/07 02:50 PM
Re: Equipment
[Re: RicBassGuy]
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Jeff Klopmeyer
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Yeah, I really don't know what's up with smilies... I also type them in. 
I'll check with the admins.
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#1730595 - 04/07/07 09:51 PM
Re: Equipment
[Re: Jeff Klopmeyer]
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blue angus
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Registered: 02/16/07
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Jeff, Trill, Ric, Jay...
That was an excellent lesson in basics for me...
I appreciate the patient answers...I will be reading more here and hopefully I can share like you's all one day!!!
Thanks again.
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