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#1719890 - 03/19/07 11:59 PM

mixing board on stage, too much tweaking?

Bass Case
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Registered: 02/19/07
Posts: 1
Loc: Minnesota, USA

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Hello BandWidth Forum Folks!

I've been a lurker for a year or so, taking in all of the informative discussion I can. Thank you for all of your help!

Here goes my first post - and it's gonna be a little long -

I play bass, occasional guitar, and share lead and harmony vocals in a classic rock cover trio. We're all 40-ish hobby musicians; none of us is trying to make a living at this. But hey - after 25+ years of playing guitar and bass at home, this is my first real band experience, and people are actually paying us for playing music, which is pretty cool. We've been doing pretty small gigs - in the three years we've been together, our biggest gig has been the local American Legion club - but the response has been very positive, and we get repeat booking requests almost everywhere we play.

All of our PA gear is owned by individuals in the band - there is no joint ownership of anything. We have a small Mackie board, running two 15" powered speakers for the house, and we each have one powered speaker (10" - 12") we use as monitors.

The issue I'm currently having is this: the mixer resides on stage whenever we play, and the mixer owner wants it on his side of the stage, which I have no problem with. What I do have a problem with is that the mixer owner cannot resist tweaking things between songs, whether its the one monitor sub-mix the board can produce (which is routed only to his monitor for reasons I won't go into now), or the house mix. Sometimes the tweaks are minor, sometimes they're significant. We do a sound check for every gig, typically in the afternoon, but those levels only last for the first few songs, and sometimes not that long.

I'm of the opinion that you can't tell much about what the sound is like out in the room from the stage, and tend to put more stock in what a few trusted musician friends tell me about the house sound rather than what my ears tell me up on stage. The mixer owner insists on tweaking based on what he hears on stage, even though we've discussed (and he SAYS he agrees) that the sound on stage is not necessarily indicative of what it sounds like out in the room, and he has his own trusted musician friends who provide sound advice when asked, yet the tweaking continues.

The last two gigs we've played, we've ended up with significant feedback issues the second half of the night, seemingly because the mixer owner has his own monitor mix cranked up too high. I can't seem to convince him that the constant tweaks to his own monitor (which is always getting louder as the night goes on) and/or the house mix are a primary cause of the feedback - it's always due to "someone else's mic, the bass, the other guitar on stage, etc. being too sensitive".

Anybody ever had a similar issue? How'd you address it? Any ideas for talking to this guy? (Am I full of feces and should just keep my mouth shut?)

You guys talk about playing in a band for fun. We started out that way, and for the most part it's still net fun, but this is detracting from the fun for me. If it wasn't for the fun the crowds seem to have when we're playing, I'd be tempted to cash in my chips on this group, but I really get a charge out of playing music that people want to dance to - even if the sets are partially filled with the usual oldies. Bottom line - I guess I'd rather find a way to make it work than just quit, at least until I've done everything I can to work it out.

Thanks in advance for any and all help you can offer, and for reading this rambling post (mea cupla - I've been known to ramble, especially in print). And if I'm being out of line on this, let me know - I can't take a hint with the best of 'em!

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#1719955 - 03/20/07 08:23 AM

Re: mixing board on stage, too much tweaking? [Re: Bass Case]

Trill
Platinum Member

Registered: 04/09/05
Posts: 1283
Loc: Southwestern Ohio

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Welcome to rhe forum Bass Case,and welcome to the world of live sound reinforcement.I am far from an expert on sound but some solutions might be.

1. Hire a sound man
2. Learn to play at a lower volume as a whole.He obviously has trouble hearing . Also what you hear on stage is not necessarily what is heard in the house. Usually its the two guitar bands which have real problems with this. One guy thinks the other is louder and the cycle begins or its the lead singer struggling to hear himself over the loud band.The better you hear the better you play and sing.Also it helps to contol the drum kit as far as loudness and miking.Even though he may not like it , the plexiglass sheild in front of the drums does help
3. Suggest that he get a personal inner ear monitor if he has trouble hearing.
4. make sure the monitors and mikes are not facing one another somewhere

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#1720196 - 03/20/07 03:09 PM

Re: mixing board on stage, too much tweaking? [Re: Trill]

Jeff Klopmeyer
10k Club

Registered: 10/13/00
Posts: 16924
Loc: Redondo Beach,CA,UNITED STATES

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Welcome to the forum.

The simple answer is you are right and the owner of the mixer is wrong. Whether that will help your situation at all remains to be seen.

1. You can't mix front-of-house from the stage. Sorry.

2. Once you're set up, tweaking is a really bad idea. You should get an established setup in practice (including all monitors and so on), then make SMALL tweaks at your gig to compensate for the size and acoustics of the room. But constantly tweaking throughout the gig is not the answer.

At least, give yourself the benefit of working with a "sound man", and let him set up your stuff o that it sounds good. Then, basically, lock it down.

One piece of advice I give people: no one wants to see a guy adjust knobs during a gig. Otherwise, the sound man would have his own spotlight. Get your stuff dialed before you go on stage, and leave it alone. No one's going to come back from seeing you play and say, "Wow, I really like the way that guy changed the EQ on the third song." This, I promise.

In my band, while we almost never have a sound guy, the only time anyone touches the mix is if we are suddenly experiencing severe problems, i.e., a huge wave of feedback that makes someone dive for a fader. Other than that, we know we're just asking for trouble.

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#1720272 - 03/20/07 05:35 PM

Re: mixing board on stage, too much tweaking? [Re: Jeff Klopmeyer]

randy clay
Senior Member

Registered: 06/03/02
Posts: 336
Loc: Waikoloa, HI, UNITED STATES

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Jeff pretty much nailed it down.

Constant tweaking generally signals that someone is unhappy with their "sound" and is trying to "fix" it in the mix. Sometimes if someone tells them that it sounds good, they'll leave it alone....Maybe

What I've found helps is to do some on the gig recording out in the audience. Although you may not be getting a "true" picture, you will get a basic idea of whether the sound is adequate or not. You will also hear the gaps when the person is doing the adjusting (and not playing) and hear the results of said adjusting. I recently picked up a Roland R-9 (I think that's the right name) and with a 2 gig card and recording at mp3 quality, I can get up to 3 sets on it. I won't send it to a record company or anything, but it has given me and my bandmates a "yardstick" and an idea of what the audience is hearing. The recording does not lie......Or even just put it on a stool on the stage so you can get a different prespective of the stage mix.

Something to think about.

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#1720289 - 03/20/07 05:56 PM

Re: mixing board on stage, too much tweaking? [Re: randy clay]

Jeff Klopmeyer
10k Club

Registered: 10/13/00
Posts: 16924
Loc: Redondo Beach,CA,UNITED STATES

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Originally Posted By: randy clay

What I've found helps is to do some on the gig recording out in the audience.

YES! Next best thing to a sound man is a retroactive sound man. $\:D$

You can't do anything about your last gig where your sound sucked eggs, but can fix it for the next one. When you play back your recording, listen for general balance of the instruments and vocals. Listen for intelligibility of the vocals and clarity of lead instruments. Imagine you could tweak things then and there... what would you fix? Do that for the next gig. Record. Listen again. Rinse and repeat.

Here's another thing: watch your audience! People aren't nearly as dumb as we think they are. If they say they can't hear the singer, they probably can't. if they're covering their ears and grimacing, you're either too loud or you really suck... you need to do something either way. $\:D$

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#1720746 - 03/21/07 12:41 PM

Re: mixing board on stage, too much tweaking? [Re: Jeff Klopmeyer]

RicBassGuy
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 02/02/05
Posts: 3833
Loc: Metro Detroit, MI

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Originally Posted By: Jeff Klopmeyer

if they're covering their ears and grimacing, you're either too loud or you really suck... you need to do something either way. $\:D$

So, uh, exactly which knob do you tweak when you realize you really suck? $\:o$ $\:D$

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#1720747 - 03/21/07 12:42 PM

Re: mixing board on stage, too much tweaking? [Re: RicBassGuy]

RicBassGuy
MP Hall of Fame Member

Registered: 02/02/05
Posts: 3833
Loc: Metro Detroit, MI

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Oh yeah, welcome Bass Case!

Maybe we'll see you on the Low Down sometime, too?

Not that there's anything wrong with Band Width. Or Jeff. Contrary to my previous post he doesn't actually suck out loud. He's been passed a torch, and he carries it well.