#1711795 - 03/04/07 06:55 PM
Something for those aspiring audio engineers?
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DdubBdrum
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Registered: 01/19/07
Posts: 33
Loc: Seattle, WA
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Hello guys,
My name is Joe and I live in Seattle, WA. I participate very actively in the large local music scene here, and through this, I have found myself falling in love with the field of music production. Ever since I got my first 2 channel M-Audio device, I've been recording, learning, and progressing, both in knowledge, and in desire. Just this year I subscribed to EQ, and now I'm here, trying to soak in each and every drop of knowledge that I can. I am currently a junior in high school and I am at that crucial point in my high school career at which I must seriously think about my future and start applying to colleges.
For this reason, I thought it would be very beneficial for myself and others in my position to be able to see how professional producers and engineers got to where they are now. What paths did they, or you, take? Did they get college degrees, or come to it by way of a music career? Was it luck? Is this career field one of those one in a million situations? I certainly know that the music industry today is much different than it was 10 years ago, with the fading of the era of the major record labels, and just the volatile nature of the music industry in general. I think it would be good to hear from those who do this for a living about how they came upon their careers, to how easy/hard/boring/exciting it is to do what they do. So, unless its just recently been covered, I would love to see something along these lines grace the pages of EQ. For those aspiring audio engineers everywhere.
thanks for your time.
P.S. If it has recently been covered, would you mind directing me to the issue so I can order it? thanks!
Joe
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#1739099 - 04/22/07 02:39 PM
Re: Something for those aspiring audio engineers?
[Re: DdubBdrum]
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ghaines
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Loc: Pittsburgh,PA,UNITED STATES
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I don't know that many people at the 'pro level' that went to an audio school. The reasons for that are numerous. First, it takes a while to climb the ladder and the schools weren't that developed decades ago. Second, this industry is still very much still in the apprentice to journeyman to master model. Third, you have to be a self-starter and real go-getter to succeed in this field. If you need to sit in a classroom to learn where to put a snare mic, you might not be the right type for this job. THAT SAID, we all have different learning styles, and some people need the structure that a school provides. Since everyone is different I don't like to make a blanket statement that the schools are bad. I think it is very dependent on the individual.
I've been recording since my parents got me a reel to reel in the 70's (it was also a 45 record player, so don't think Studer). I used to strap cassette decks together to try to bounce and draped comforters over the head of singers to try to cut down on reflections. I just wanted to make records. About five years into it I found out there were magazines about recording. Those magazines have gear ads, and the addiction was complete.
I ended up going to school for economics and later got a M.S. in Technology and Management. I took a suit-job working on IT issues, and stayed up all night reading recording books and magazines. I used all my money to buy gear and eventually I quit the day job. You can only run from yourself for so long. The IT background has been a major help in my work writing articles and in my day-to-day studio responsiblities. But it was the long way around to my destination.
When I speak to engineers, writers, and producers, they all seem to have 'fallen' into their jobs. But the common deonimiator is you have to have a fundamental desire to record as something in your DNA. There is no other explanation why someone would risk bankruptcy, poverty, the wrath of family, and becoming a social outcast. You have to be born to do this. Ultimately, only you can answer that question. After that, its up to you.
Remember: you require no one's permission to be outstanding. Just go do it.
Best,
Garrett H.
Edited by ghaines (04/22/07 02:40 PM)
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#1739803 - 04/23/07 08:30 PM
Re: Something for those aspiring audio engineers?
[Re: ghaines]
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DdubBdrum
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Registered: 01/19/07
Posts: 33
Loc: Seattle, WA
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wow, thanks for the lengthy reply.
this industry is still very much still in the apprentice to journeyman to master model
I totally know what you mean. I just called a producer I got to know through playing live to see if he knew of any opportunities for me to intern or apprentice in a studio somwhere. He seemed enthusiastic to help me out and teach me the ropes come summer time, so I'm working on that. I think there are a lot of hard workers out there that would be happy to start from the bottom and do the sh*t work for a while to work to the top. That position is the one I plan to fill willingly.
If you need to sit in a classroom to learn where to put a snare mic, you might not be the right type for this job
Haha, yes, this is very true. However, the use I would hope to get out of a university education in audio engineering is a deeper understanding of the intricacies of sound waves and the way they behave, as well as ample hands on time if at all possible. Just a deeper knowledge so that I could gain a logical understanding of how to mold the sound to my desires. I already spend too much time (according to my parents) sitting down in my studio moving mics and recording. moving and recording, etc, etc.
I've been recording since my parents got me a reel to reel in the 70's
My story has begun similarly except with an M-Audio 2 channel USB interface.
About five years into it I found out there were magazines about recording.
EQ is my example of this phenomenon! 
When I speak to engineers, writers, and producers, they all seem to have 'fallen' into their jobs
I have found this too, however, I don't believe that this means you can't be focused on what you want and achieve it directly. I'm not saying that it will turn out that perfectly, and in case I can take the long route if necessary.
thanks very much for your input and I'd be thrilled to carry on this conversation if you have anymore to share!
ddubbdrum
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#1803008 - 08/31/07 03:54 AM
Re: Something for those aspiring audio engineers?
[Re: DdubBdrum]
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JHughes
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Registered: 08/30/07
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ddubbdrum,
The best way to learn about sound/electrical waves is to take physics and possibly electronics classes while you're in high school. Unfortunately, you need math for those. 
If you do that, I guarantee you'll know more than most, and 90% of what you read on the subject will seem trivial. For example, when you see a standing wave pattern set up in a pan of water for a physics demonstration, you will immediately know for the rest of your life exactly how standing waves, interference patterns and resonant frequencies in a room work.
In electronics you'll learn about reactance and how it is affected by frequency, and you'll immediately know for the rest of your life exactly why you shouldn't use an RCA cable in place of a S/PDIF cable.
I don't know if you're on the "college prep" track, but I highly recommend it, even if you end up with mediocre grades.
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#1805821 - 09/06/07 12:12 AM
Re: Something for those aspiring audio engineers?
[Re: JHughes]
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Bill@Welcome Home Studios
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Registered: 08/23/03
Posts: 7294
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You can, of course, spend many years and tens of thousands of dollars in college, or you can buy a few hundred dollars worth of books and if you actually read them, you'll gain the same knowlege.
There is no doubt that a college education is useful, and of course, the letters behind your name won't hurt.
But in the years that you spend in school, others are going straight into the business, filling job slots that will no longer be available when you get out of school. Plus, they will have that many more years of real-world experience, which cannot be taught in school.
If you desire to have the college education, becoming a double E is far more employable in the field. It is harder and harder to find a good repair tech.
There are a lucky handful who get to work with the top performers and perhaps their day differs from the average engineer. But for most, it is a job like any other. Even if you like it, when you do it for 8 to 16 hours a day, five or six days a week, it becomes work. Some poeple love their work, some hate it, most have good and bad days at work...because after all, you have no choice but to be there to earn a living.
Bill
_________________________
"...it's easier than hitting the kids, and almost as much fun..."
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#1807775 - 09/10/07 07:17 AM
Re: Something for those aspiring audio engineers?
[Re: Bill@Welcome Home Studios]
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audiorulez
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While in years past one could build a successful career in the audio field by the tried and true learn by doing method, todays audio field is IMHO far too technologically advanced for that. With the oncoming of the digital age of music, IMHO it is imperative to get some solid fundamental education not only in the basic physics behind the audio, but also on the basics of digital audio itself. What I see as a studio engineer all too often is those DIY'ers who go buy some gear and, with little to just enough to be dangerous knowledge, record tracks, only expecting that the mix engineer will make it sound great. Fix it in the mix has become the battlecry of the modern novice engineer in far too many cases. I am constantly bombarded with tracks recorded too hot, phase issues in stereo recordings, and the all too common just plain sounds like ass tracks, and the proud recording engineer looking at me with that "Gee isn't there a plugin to fix that" look on their faces.
Now granted there is the exception, but typically it comes from those motivated enough to educte themselves and understand the importance of the basics, and only then do they even think about reaching seriously for the big red button.
I was fortunate enough to come up in this business quickly being in the right place at the right time, and blessed with good parents who taught me the necessities, mainly good common sense. From there I just rolled with the ball, and every day I am grateful for the opportunities that have come my way. Today's world is not that easy, and in order to impress, you need the knowledge of how the gear works, and the drive and ambition to keep up with an ever changing world of virtual knobs.
Bottom line, I love my job. I work long hard hours, for a reward that is beyond the monetary. Artistic satisfaction.
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#1823893 - 10/12/07 04:33 PM
Re: Something for those aspiring audio engineers?
[Re: audiorulez]
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audiofreek
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I just want to add something to the great advice already given.
I believe one of the best tools you can have in your arsenal as an Audio Engineer,is to have great musical skills,so that you can be a an great producer.You can learn the art of digital recording through the many paths,but to have a solid musical background to go along with it will set you apart and above the pack.No matter how often you say you just want to engineer,there will be times when production skills,like sonics,and arangements will play a much larger role than whether or not you choose to record analog or digtal,condensor or dymamic,solid state or tube.
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#1823935 - 10/12/07 06:06 PM
Re: Something for those aspiring audio engineers?
[Re: audiofreek]
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audiorulez
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IMHO it's a requirement, not an option. How can you possibly communicate with musicians if you cannot talk the same language.
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#1823959 - 10/12/07 07:12 PM
Re: Something for those aspiring audio engineers?
[Re: audiorulez]
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miroslav
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But...there are many engineers that are not musicians at all.
At best...they may know an instrument...but they don't actively play it...and some that don't play any at all.
They got into it more for the love of electronics.
I agree....being a musician, I think my production/engineering decisions are much more "persona” and relative as opposed to only thinking about things from an electronics/theoretical perspective.
I was a musician long before I messed around with engineering, but I made sure to supplement my music knowledge by getting an electronics degree for audio and also many years of training and experience in computer/IT skills.
Not trying to brag...but I find that most days in the studio, I can be thinking about a creative decision while at the same time I'll also be considering all the technical issues that it would involve.
Basically...a lot of simultaneous right brain/left brain action! 
_________________________
miroslav - miroslavmusic.com"Just because it happened to you, it doesn't mean it's important."
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#1824066 - 10/13/07 05:55 AM
Re: Something for those aspiring audio engineers?
[Re: miroslav]
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audiorulez
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True, but they are becoming a very rare breed. As I said, pretty tough to be an engineer and not be able to communicate with musicians in their own language. You don't need to be a concert level musician, in fact you don't need to play anything, but you do need to know music structure. How else do you know where to punch in when the horn section says "Give us a 4 bar intro then lets punch in for 12 measures at 84."
The engineer who does not have some basic music knowledge is lost in this situation.
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#1824079 - 10/13/07 06:35 AM
Re: Something for those aspiring audio engineers?
[Re: audiorulez]
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miroslav
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I wonder how those "lab coat" guys faired back in the 50s/60s...?
I get the feeling that they were ALL about the electronics and audio theory...paying little attention to the actual music content of the sessiosn they were working on.
Then...things started to shift away from that in the middle '60s....
_________________________
miroslav - miroslavmusic.com"Just because it happened to you, it doesn't mean it's important."
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#1824176 - 10/13/07 11:25 AM
Re: Something for those aspiring audio engineers?
[Re: miroslav]
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audiorulez
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Back then it was "rocket science" born from radio broadcasting, that was about the numbers not the music. Much of the music then was recorded live with little to no overdubbing.
Today the world of recording is not even remotely the same place. As I said, if you don't know the language, it makes commincating with the artists very difficult, especially during tracking and overdubbing.
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#1831012 - 10/27/07 06:36 AM
Re: Something for those aspiring audio engineers?
[Re: audiorulez]
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audiofreek
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The Reed/Soloman codes,and cyclic redundancy (error correction) in digtal audio are from guided missel technology.That's rocket science,isn't it?
Edited by audiofreek (10/27/07 06:41 AM)
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#1831117 - 10/27/07 10:08 AM
Re: Something for those aspiring audio engineers?
[Re: audiofreek]
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audiorulez
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However the bottom line is it's reating to music, and if a musician speaks to you about music in a specific measure or beat, if you don't know the basics of the (music) language you're ignorance makes that communication difficult at best.
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#1831165 - 10/27/07 12:10 PM
Re: Something for those aspiring audio engineers?
[Re: audiorulez]
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audiofreek
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The good thing is that if you have some musical chops you'll do fine,but if you can play piano,and have a midi controller with a notation program, you can score a symphony,provide charts for studio musicians etc..
Alot of audio schools don't require any degree of musical theory for entrance.All you need is the cash,the desire,and they spit you out the other end with the ability to edit the shit out of Protools.Sure you have to be able to count bars and beats,but you don't need to have a musical ear.You don't need to know the diffence between a triplet,and a whole note,an accent and a crescendo.Having great musical skills can help take good original material brought in by an artist with limited skills, and turn it into something more than the sum of it's parts.
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#1831238 - 10/27/07 04:02 PM
Re: Something for those aspiring audio engineers?
[Re: audiofreek]
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audiorulez
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Great if you'r edoing music via midi. However if you're dealing with actual musicians playing actual music, all that ability won't help you for crap.
Like a mechanic needs to know at least the basics of how to drive a car. He may not drive, but he knows how.
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#1831369 - 10/28/07 01:02 AM
Re: Something for those aspiring audio engineers?
[Re: audiorulez]
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audiofreek
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In alot situations the musicians don't know much theory,some don't even understand basic composition terms like a middle 8,but they write thier songs,and expect you,the engineer to make them sound like the people they look up to in the music world,when one of the most important element of mix is the arrangement it self.
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#1831686 - 10/28/07 06:38 PM
Re: Something for those aspiring audio engineers?
[Re: audiofreek]
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audiorulez
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You're confusing engineer and producer.
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#1831790 - 10/28/07 11:12 PM
Re: Something for those aspiring audio engineers?
[Re: audiorulez]
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audiofreek
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So many of us on this forum have to learn to do both,even at the demo level,some producing is often required.A well produced song is the best PR a small studio can have. Many people call indie releases demos,so you never know what a client is going to release to the airwaves.The problem is most "demo" level clients can't afford to pay a producer,and an engineer.I have producers that I like to work with,but so few semi pro songwriter/musicians are willing to shell out the bucks,and give up any control.
To me the difference I have seen between pro level session musicians, and semi pro is,pro level players are looking for a producer to tell them what to play,what the vision is for the project,and the part.The semi pro person is usually more limited in what they can do,so there is this fear that they will not be able to deliver.You have to be really gentle when giving production advise,and timing is everything.Eventually they might ask for it,if needed,but sometimes you just have to throw it out there as a suggestion.
In a situation where there is a producer,and an engineer involved,it's often best,as an engineer to just keep your mouth shut,as side from pointing out tuning issues,or fixing sound problems.
Edited by audiofreek (10/28/07 11:17 PM)
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#1831896 - 10/29/07 06:29 AM
Re: Something for those aspiring audio engineers?
[Re: audiofreek]
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miroslav
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More and more engineers are stepping over the production line.
And there are those that will just engineer on one project, but then switch hats, or even wear both hats, on another project.
In most of the project studio world...the lines between the two are totally blurred....
_________________________
miroslav - miroslavmusic.com"Just because it happened to you, it doesn't mean it's important."
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#1831933 - 10/29/07 07:17 AM
Re: Something for those aspiring audio engineers?
[Re: miroslav]
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audiorulez
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Even more reason to have a solid knowledge of the language of music.
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