#1701476 - 02/13/07 01:41 AM
The "one room" Studio question
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DdubBdrum
Senior Member
Registered: 01/19/07
Posts: 33
Loc: Seattle, WA
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Hello again guys,
Well this is a question for those of you, including Ethan from the acoustics forum, who track and mix in the same room.
I play the drums and I love recording drums, but only have one room for tracking and mixing. First of all, you should know that I'm no pro and my room is untreated as of now (though i have 2 bags of rockwool sitting in my workshop).
Anyways, I don't know if you'll agree with my methods, but I'm fairly new and learning, so bear with me. I like to EQ and get the best sound I can prior to recording the tracks. So as I'm EQing each track, it's hard to isolate the sound i'm getting from the mics in the headphones while hearing the drums from outside as well. Since the drums are no more than 10 feet from me and my monitoring/mixing/EQing position during this stage, I cannot get a very good interpretation of what i'm hearing in the phones.
I'm not sure if there's a feasable answer for me, but is there a way that any of you reading this cope with this problem? i.e. isolate or block some of the sound to get a (slightly) more accurate representation of what will be recorded?
thanks guys!
EDIT: If you feel that this would be better suited in the acoustics forum, please, don't hesitate to move it.
Edited by DdubBdrum (02/13/07 01:44 AM)
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#1701478 - 02/13/07 01:59 AM
Re: The "one room" Studio question
[Re: DdubBdrum]
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J.J. Blair
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Registered: 07/22/05
Posts: 326
Loc: Hollywood, CA
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Ddub, I had to do a record under these circumstances once, and there is really no solution I can offer. Headphones can be very deceiving, and if you are listening to monitors in the untreated tracking room, you might have standing waves in the recording that you are unaware of, because the playback is in the same environment. The record I made in this fashion, when I finally got into a real studio to mix, it was a nightmare of low end build up that I didn't know I had recorded, and my mastering engineer bailed my ass out big time.
So I guess my answer is: Try to use whatever rudimentary recording knowledge you have, use your headphones as best you can, knowing that they aren't giving you the whole picture, and hope for the best! There's a reason why we pay studio architects big bucks to design room, or guys like Ethan money to treat the ones that aren't designed right.
Edited by J.J. Blair (02/13/07 01:59 AM)
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#1701750 - 02/13/07 05:55 PM
Re: The "one room" Studio question
[Re: J.J. Blair]
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DdubBdrum
Senior Member
Registered: 01/19/07
Posts: 33
Loc: Seattle, WA
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Yeah, i am aware of the problems of recording and mixing in an untreated room. Soon it will be though, so the acoustics of the room should improve quite a bit to give me a more predictable and well rounded sound. I guess I kind of expected that answer. I have nice enough monitors, but no isolation between a tracking room and monitoring position so i guess i'll just make the best of my situation. Good old guess and check i guess. haha, thanks for the help.
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#1701891 - 02/13/07 10:59 PM
Re: The "one room" Studio question
[Re: DdubBdrum]
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miroslav
Cosmic Cowboy
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Registered: 05/23/00
Posts: 11537
Loc: NY Hudson Valley, USA
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I'm generally in a "one room" setup...though I have other rooms to spill over to.
The way I deal with your situation is to use closed headphones that have very good isolation…and with a bit more volume...
…and I never EQ when tracking...so I'm only listening for oddities and just an overall level.
Also...I use a very long extension cord on the headphones…and I can easily walk away from the drums, and into the next room if I want to get most of the sound in the headphones.
And...during the warm-ups...I’ll record and then listen to the playback...make some adjustments...record a bit more and adjust again.
After you do something enough times...you don't need to second guess yourself...since you should know your room and what works.
Once the actual tracking starts...I'm no longer "wondering" about the sound...I'm just keeping an eye on the meters and paying attention to cues...etc.
But you really need to do some acoustics treatment in the room to get things a bit under control.
_________________________
miroslav - miroslavmusic.com"Just because it happened to you, it doesn't mean it's important."
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#1701904 - 02/13/07 11:33 PM
Re: The "one room" Studio question
[Re: miroslav]
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DdubBdrum
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Registered: 01/19/07
Posts: 33
Loc: Seattle, WA
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Yeah, the last part about walking out of the room is exactly what I have to do currently. I bought a headphone extension for this purpose also. I will probably just have to record a bit and play it back as you suggested, and as I have done somewhat in the past.
Another question involving tracking drums... Do you have the kit facing into the large portion of the room or away from the large portion of the room. i.e. I have the kit on the 1/3 line of the room that is 15x24 roughly. Should I sit facing the other 2/3 of the room or sit on the 1/3 facing the wall?
thanks guys!
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#1702362 - 02/14/07 06:55 PM
Re: The "one room" Studio question
[Re: miroslav]
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DdubBdrum
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Registered: 01/19/07
Posts: 33
Loc: Seattle, WA
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sure that sounds reasonable. As i mentioned i have 2 bags of 4" thick rockwool sitting in my garage, i'm just fabricating some bags to hang them in and they'll be going in the corners. I also found this thick nasty fiber material. it's about 3/4"-1" thick and it is pretty dense. I figured i'd cut it up and pull it over some plywood backing boards and hang it on the wall opposite my monitors.
currently my kit is about at the same point and angle as yours and i'm getting 'decent' sounds even without having treated my room.
I have a basic idea that i figured out in sketch up, but by no means is it the final draft.
I was thinking after I had drawn this up that I will go floor to ceiling with bass traps atleast on the first reflection wall (the one where the garage door hole is cutout. until I can buy more. The drawing shows two clouds, one over the mix position and one over where the drums will be. That table is actually moved out from the wall about 2.5 feet now. the squares on the walls were meant to be mid-high freq acoustic foam, but that was kind of just to see what it would look like. I may do that or alternate the squares with some kind of diffusor on the long blank wall. but we'll see.
from the other angle:
thanks!
EDIT: just so you know, the grey box is the heater unit, and the redish cylinder is actually a 55 gallon drum stove that my grandpa put in about 4.5 billion years ago. I'd take it out if I could just for more space, but 'the authorities' of my household say it has to stay.
Edited by DdubBdrum (02/14/07 07:02 PM)
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#1706166 - 02/21/07 06:53 PM
Re: The "one room" Studio question
[Re: DdubBdrum]
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BrianK
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Registered: 12/17/00
Posts: 228
Loc: Los Angeles,CA,UNITED STATES
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a) If you can, EQ later - you probably will EQ on mic, right? o why guess beforehand. Unless it sounds SO terrible you can't listen without EQ. If so, can't you EQ just for playback and NOT to the track? Also - it makes you work harder to get your drums themselves and you mic techniques as good as they can be - which is always better for the long run. No band-aid EQ needed then, and when you MIX with EQ, you will suddenly have GREAT drums!
b) I'd say it's worth a test or two? Set up the drums one way, and record it, and then get it outside and listen to what came out. Change the setup (different mics, or position, or baffles) and listen again. You could do 6 setups in one hour easily. You'd learn more than waiting til the end of a project, or when other people are around and waiting. Learn "the lessons" of your room/setup like "If it sounds bright, it is probably just right". Or "if it has a little sub-rumble, it will be WAY too much later."
Edited by BrianK (02/21/07 06:54 PM)
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#1706288 - 02/22/07 02:23 AM
Re: The "one room" Studio question
[Re: BrianK]
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DdubBdrum
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Registered: 01/19/07
Posts: 33
Loc: Seattle, WA
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yeah, ok that sounds like a plan. I've always been in a dilemma between EQing before hand or EQing after. It seems like every other person has the opposite view, so I guess it's up to me to try them both out for myself and see which I like more.
Getting my mic placement as good as possible sounds like the best plan because it can only make it sound better and with hopefully less guess and check, right? Plus, I've always heard that less EQ is best, so may as well work in that direction.
thanks for all the help guys, and I'll see if I can get a picture or two up for some more input once I treat the room.
peace
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#1707589 - 02/24/07 02:38 PM
Re: The "one room" Studio question
[Re: DdubBdrum]
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todd24
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Registered: 11/20/06
Posts: 25
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1.Treat the room, dont bother with the rest until thats done.
2. Dont EQ going in (why would you commit at this point?), use mic position. You will be amazed how much a 1/4 inch movement will sound diferantly.
3. Its hard but you have to record, move mic, record, move mic, record, move mic etc etc etc........until you find the right spot. Isolation phones will help but, you still have to go back and forth with the monitors.
4. Going off of the 38% of the room length for mix position rule, I belive that 38% of the room length will likley be the best spot for the drum overheads. Move the kit acordingly.
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#1707611 - 02/24/07 03:37 PM
Re: The "one room" Studio question
[Re: todd24]
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BrianK
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Registered: 12/17/00
Posts: 228
Loc: Los Angeles,CA,UNITED STATES
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Why it's best to EQ later:
If you like to eq first, can you live with that eq and NOT touch the sound in the mix? If so, fine. If not (most people like to eq in mix) then save it - do it ONCE and that will be the right amount. When you do it first, you can only guess and then it's done, forever. In the mix, you can try and change it again and again until the eq is right.
Yes, too much EQ tends to (a) smear the sound, even a non-EQ'd recording sounds clear and balanced, but maybe not the tones you like. (b) it makes it harder for the mix to "translate" to other speakers if you eq a lot. (c) It's harder to listen to mixes that have a lot of eq going - they just strain the ear. If you can get by with a touch, it will be better in most cases.
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Relax and float downstream...
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#1807745 - 09/10/07 05:58 AM
Re: The "one room" Studio question
[Re: BrianK]
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audiorulez
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Registered: 06/20/07
Posts: 493
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As with the others, I cannot stress enough the importance of NOT eqing on the way in. The old addage gigo (garbage in/garbage out) applies very well here. Get the sound right going in. Sadly without an isolating control room and a dedicated engineer, this means a lot of recording and listening prior to beginning the actual recording, but the end result will be far superior.
You will find you eq little if at all, and having kept the eq out of the chain, makes for a better overall quality of audio.
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