#1691922 - 08/24/06 06:36 AM
Recording Acoustic Drums
|
where02190
MP Hall of Fame Member
Registered: 11/06/01
Posts: 5402
Loc: Weymouth, Ma. USA
|
Offline
|
|
Craig,
First off let me say I usually read EQ with the vigor and excitement of a child at Christmas, the articles are well written, informative and professional. However, there being an exception to everything, I am writing you today in regard to the September article by Jay Gradon, "Recording Acoustic Drums".
While much of the advise was well documented, (I particularly liked the angled floor tom to avoid damping) the paragraph
general tweaking with eq" IMHO shot the article in the foot. EQ, when tracking? Any professional engineer knows this is a major no no unless there is no other solution to a major problem. Move the mic, change mics, change pres, retune, change heads, but NEVER EQ to solve tonal issues in tracking.
In "Kick drum mic/placement", he refers to the Sennheiser 421, and in the next paragraph refers loosely to its hp filter, and while not directed specificially at the 421, refers to the rolloffs as follows: "...might have choices like "music" and "voice or "M" for Music and "V" for voice." A better and IMHO less confusing reference would have been the M and V references that the 421 has.
In "Cymbal (overheads) mic placement, no mention is made at all of the importance of overhead mics in capturing the kit as a whole, rather it focuses only on cymbals, which as any engineer knows is not the primary purpose of overheads in recording. IMHO this section and the section on room mics should have been first, not last, as these are the most important mics in drum recording, and in most cases these mics determine the overall sound of the kit.
Nowhere is there any mention of compression when tracking, a far more widely used technique than eq when tracking.
While I agree the importance of making sure your mics are secure around the kit, or anywhere else in the studio, Jay obviously had one too many bad experiences before smartening up and securing his mics properly. I find his continual reference to this serious overkill. For instance his recommendation of a tripod stand for the snare. Anyone who has ever tried to fit a tripod stand between the hat and the kick knows the usually very limited real estate there, and how difficult that can be. In addition, a tripod stand is IMHO far more likely to get moved around when the drummer adjusts stands than a good round base stand is, and the round base stand is far easier to fit in tight places, not to mention being heavier at the base and thus more stable.
In addition to this IMHO poor advise, the advise to "tie the cord to the stand using removable cable ties" is another major overkill, and no mention is made to the cable clips all professional mic stands and booms come with. A couple good wraps around the stand after connecting to the mic will secure even the heaviest of cables securely to the stand.
While informing the novice and pro of the basic techniques of micing drums, I feel this article seriously missed the mark, and gives in some cases some very poor advise for the newbie.
Thank you for taking the time to read this.
_________________________
Hope this is helpful. NP Recording Studios Analog approach to digital recording.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#1691923 - 08/24/06 01:11 PM
Re: Recording Acoustic Drums
|
Anderton
MP Hall of Fame Member
Registered: 01/28/00
Posts: 7346
|
|
Offline
|
|
<general tweaking with eq" IMHO shot the article in the foot. EQ, when tracking? Any professional engineer knows this is a major no no unless there is no other solution to a major problem. Move the mic, change mics, change pres, retune, change heads, but NEVER EQ to solve tonal issues in tracking.>>
The debate about whether to process on the way in or out won't be solved here. Note that Jay was talking about very general, "broad strokes" type of EQ, not techniques like using a parametric to bring down a tom or whatever. Some people even print with effects on the way in; some don't. I print with EQ on some things, like vocals, where I know I'll be adding a midrange boost anyway. But I'll add "problem-solving" EQ only during mixdown; I think Jay has sort of the same philosophy.
<>
Well, he didn't want it to seem like he was restricting his comments to the 421, there are other mics with similar options.
<>
Actually, on the first page, he starts off the whole miking process by talking about an initial setup involving one overhead mic.
<>
There are only so many pages...that's a whole other subject that could easily have taken up another couple of pages. You gotta draw the line somewhere!
Personally, I \avoid compression "going in" as that can't be "undone," whereas you can undo EQ to a large extent.
<>
Actually that's not correct. He said "As with all mic stands for the drum mics, a big base or triangular base (three legs) is best."
<>
See my commment above. He did not recommend only triangular bases, but mentioned that as one of two option.
<>
He recommended Velcro cable straps as being what he feels are the best choice as "They are easy to set up and remove." I believe he prefers them to clips. The other choices were indicated not as best choices, but as options.
<>
Yes, but then if it's moved, the cable can get looser. Jay is a very thorough guy with really expensive mics, and he doesn't like to take any chances. It may be overkill, but he doesn't have any mics that were damaged by falling 
<>
Hopefully the above comments will allay your concerns to some degree. Thanks for your comments.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#1691924 - 08/25/06 10:36 AM
Re: Recording Acoustic Drums
|
Anderton
MP Hall of Fame Member
Registered: 01/28/00
Posts: 7346
|
|
Offline
|
|
I asked Jay for his comments, and he wrote the following.
Re: EQing while tracking, I was a first call guitarist in the 70s. Every good recording engineer I have ever worked with Eq’d drums (and most all other instruments) to tape. This has not changed over the years. I am friends with many great engineers and they still Eq to whatever recorder format is used. As a recording engineer, I have done the same.
The key is simply making the drums sound great as soon as possible as per the sound style needed. For example, If no Eq. the drums will sound similar to a jazz set loaded with mids that must get rolled out for most any other application. You simply can’t do this with mic selection even if you have every great mic ever made.
Re: M and V, I noted the music and voice reference as to help the beginner know what
the letters stand for.
Re: "No mention is made at all of the importance of overhead mics in capturing the kit as a whole, rather it focuses only on cymbals, which as any engineer knows is not the primary purpose of overheads in recording etc. etc."
The primary purpose of OH’s totally depends upon the application. Know that OH’s can cause phase (comb-filtering) problems big time regarding the snare, toms, and kick. I made a big deal out of the snare in the OH’s as to help that issue BUT dealing with the toms phase requires an article on its own.
Another article would be needed to run down when OH’s should be the feature or not. In a jazz set up, I agree the OH’s are the main feature with the close mics dialed in as needed. In a pop through rock setup, the applications vary so much as well as how the OH’s would be used verses the close mics.
Re: compression when tracking, I'm with Craig on this one. I do not know one engineer who would compress drums to the recorder. It is undoable, makes things sound small and kills dynamics. As to keep body in the drums as well as keeping most of the dynamics, if I want more punch, I “Y” off the source sending one leg to a compressor blending the compressed leg just enough to add the snap needed. The dynamics basically stay intact.
Re: "Overkill" with respect to securing mics, only once did a mic hit the ground in my studios — that was one too many times — and I made a big deal out of this as I always consider the novice first when writing.
Re: tripod vs snare, this was not clear enough I guess. I was referring to a large heavy based stand with a boom. I must have mentioned sand bags as to anchor, the common way to deal with the miking of the snare.
Re clamps, sure, use clamps, cable ties, whatever. A couple of wraps around the stand is just not good enough for me, but at least you're making some effort to secure the mic, which is a good thing.
Jay Graydon
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#1691925 - 08/28/06 12:17 PM
Re: Recording Acoustic Drums
|
Gantt Kushner
Member
Registered: 12/08/04
Posts: 4
Loc: Silver Spring, MD
|
|
Offline
|
|
Thanks to Jay for a great article. I've recorded drums both ways - EQ to tape and not. Mostly I don't EQ to "tape" anymore, since I use outboard mic preamps into my DAW (Paris), but when I still had my analog console I certainly did.
My only comment is that no one, in any of the articles I read, mentioned the number one most important - OK, the two number one most important - things you need to get great drum tracks.
You need great sounding drums and a great drummer! Granted, in this age of slice and dice DAW groove-u-lator plugins, you can fix a lot in the mix, but every time I've gotten a truly magical rhythm track it was because a great drummer was hitting a set of great drums with just the right touch.
Thanks. I'm done now...
Gantt Kushner
gizmo recording company
Silver Spring, MD
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#1691926 - 08/28/06 07:31 PM
Re: Recording Acoustic Drums
|
Gantt Kushner
Member
Registered: 12/08/04
Posts: 4
Loc: Silver Spring, MD
|
|
Offline
|
|
I just re-read where02190's post and have another comment - for me, the position of overhead mics depends on the style of music, style of production and the drummer's style of playing. I frequently use them as cymbal mics, not as a stereo pair capturing the whole kit. If I plan to put a lot of reverb on the snare and/or toms a stereo pair can sometimes work against me come mix time. On the other hand, a jazz or blues or roots-rock project might be perfect for a stereo pair over the kit. I'm probably not unlike many EQ readers in that I have a relatively small tracking room, so room mics are of less use than they'd be in a big ambient space.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#1691927 - 08/29/06 09:16 AM
Re: Recording Acoustic Drums
|
miroslav
Cosmic Cowboy
10k Club
Registered: 05/23/00
Posts: 12277
Loc: NY Hudson Valley, USA
|
|
Offline
|
|
Originally posted by Gantt Kushner:
If I plan to put a lot of reverb on the snare and/or toms a stereo pair can sometimes work against me come mix time. 
I use overheads to capture the whole kit...rather than having mics on every piece.
They are set up in M/S configuration about 7-8 feet off the ground even with the drummers foot but mid-way between the Kick and Snare.
I then spot mic the Snare and the Kick....that's it.
It's a rather large kit, not just a small 4-5 piece...and it sounds great with the M/S rig. The Cymbals, Toms and Hat all come through well balanced, so that I don't need to EQ or compress the kit just to pull things in/out.
For that extra punch and reverb on the Snare...as I said, I have the spot mic...and likewise if I need to shape the Kick a little more boldly, I have its spot mic.
This setup is working rather well for me on Pop/Rock stuff…
_________________________
miroslav - miroslavmusic.com"Just because it happened to you, it doesn't mean it's important."
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#1691928 - 08/29/06 06:15 PM
Re: Recording Acoustic Drums
|
Gantt Kushner
Member
Registered: 12/08/04
Posts: 4
Loc: Silver Spring, MD
|
|
Offline
|
|
I do mic the snare, but I find that for most "pop" type productions I get better results using the overheads as cymbal mics, rather than a stereo "picture" of the drum kit. I've never used M/S for overheads, though. I'm going to have to try that sometime! I'd be a little concerned about M/S overheads w/ a lot of other stuff (horns, guitar amps, singers, etc) going on in the room w/ the drums.
Gantt
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#1691929 - 08/29/06 07:28 PM
Re: Recording Acoustic Drums
|
miroslav
Cosmic Cowboy
10k Club
Registered: 05/23/00
Posts: 12277
Loc: NY Hudson Valley, USA
|
|
Offline
|
|
I usually track the drums by themselves...no bleed from other instruments.
The M/S pair gives me an excellent stereo kit from the position I use the mics...right over the center of whole kit...and not too high, so that there is good left/right width.
You can clearly hear the full width of the kit, and it sounds natural...as opposed to individually miking each piece...and then creating the left/right width at the board.
_________________________
miroslav - miroslavmusic.com"Just because it happened to you, it doesn't mean it's important."
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#1691930 - 08/29/06 11:02 PM
Re: Recording Acoustic Drums
|
Anderton
MP Hall of Fame Member
Registered: 01/28/00
Posts: 7346
|
|
Offline
|
|
<>
I bet you have less concerns about phase issues, too...right?
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#1691931 - 08/29/06 11:04 PM
Re: Recording Acoustic Drums
|
Anderton
MP Hall of Fame Member
Registered: 01/28/00
Posts: 7346
|
|
Offline
|
|
Gantt...the name rings a bell...did we do some work together at a studio in Baltimore back in the 70s (IBC or ITC, if I recall correctly), with some young engineer named George Massenburg?
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#1691932 - 08/30/06 08:39 AM
Re: Recording Acoustic Drums
|
miroslav
Cosmic Cowboy
10k Club
Registered: 05/23/00
Posts: 12277
Loc: NY Hudson Valley, USA
|
|
Offline
|
|
Originally posted by Anderton:
I bet you have less concerns about phase issues, too...right? 
When I mix the drums....I put the faders from the M/S kit pair up to where the level is pretty even with the other elements in the mix….where I can hear the whole kit.
Then I push up the faders from the spot mics for the Kick and Snare...
....and all of a sudden the kit grows the biggest set of cojones you can imagine!
IMO...for pop/Rock...if the Kick and Snare got balls, everything else in the kit falls into place…especially with the M/S rig!
_________________________
miroslav - miroslavmusic.com"Just because it happened to you, it doesn't mean it's important."
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#1691933 - 08/30/06 08:16 PM
Re: Recording Acoustic Drums
|
wwittman
Senior Member
Registered: 12/07/01
Posts: 120
Loc: peekskill, NY, USA
|
|
Offline
|
|
there obviously are MANY ways to record drums and no single "right" way or even any hard and fast rules at all.
It seemed obvious to me that Jay was speaking for JAY.
The VALUE in such things is to hear about how JAY does it, and then apply it or not at your discretion.
but I agree completely with this:
>>Re: EQing while tracking, I was a first call guitarist in the 70s. Every good recording engineer I have ever worked with Eq’d drums (and most all other instruments) to tape. This has not changed over the years. I am friends with many great engineers and they still Eq to whatever recorder format is used. As a recording engineer, I have done the same.
>>The key is simply making the drums sound great as soon as possible as per the sound style needed. For example, If no Eq. the drums will sound similar to a jazz set loaded with mids that must get rolled out for most any other application. You simply can’t do this with mic selection even if you have every great mic ever made.
EQ is nothing to be afraid of (that's not a suggestion for a magazine slogan, by the way)
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#1691934 - 08/30/06 10:40 PM
Re: Recording Acoustic Drums
|
Gantt Kushner
Member
Registered: 12/08/04
Posts: 4
Loc: Silver Spring, MD
|
|
Offline
|
|
Was Massenburg really the engineer on that session? I never knew! It's pretty funny to find that out what - 34 years later?
I was playing guitar w/ Phil Flowers, a local singer who passed away a couple of years ago. You came to town w/ a producer who's name was Ted something w/ a pile of cool electronic toys.
That session got us an audition w/ Clive Davis when he ran Columbia Records, and Phil a contract w/ Epic Records. All of which, of course, amounted to nothing for any of us in the band!
If only I had known then a thousandth of what I know now, I'd have been in the CR begging George to take me under his wing. Of course, back then I had no idea I was going to end up being a recording engineer...
Gantt
Originally posted by Anderton:
Gantt...the name rings a bell...did we do some work together at a studio in Baltimore back in the 70s (IBC or ITC, if I recall correctly), with some young engineer named George Massenburg?
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#1691935 - 08/30/06 11:41 PM
Re: Recording Acoustic Drums
|
Anderton
MP Hall of Fame Member
Registered: 01/28/00
Posts: 7346
|
|
Offline
|
|
<>
Yup, that was him.
<>
Yes, Ted Cooper, he had produced a few hits...worked with Mike Appel (who managed Springsteen at one time), and got me a bunch of session work in NY...he was pretty tied in with Columbia.
I remember playing a gig with Phil and y'all in Washington, fun stuff. It's great to see you here all these years later, and it's great to know you're still active! I also dug Bil Jones, the trumpet player.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#1691936 - 09/06/06 02:45 PM
Re: Recording Acoustic Drums
|
Christopher Robin
MP Hall of Fame Member
Registered: 02/22/02
Posts: 7767
Loc: unknown
|
|
Offline
|
|
You know, this reminds me of something that really bugged me in this article: using duct tape to secure cables.
No, No , NO! Duct tape is a horrible choice for taping down cables - the glue stays on the cable jacket even after removal, and if you tape the entire length of the cable it's way too easy to have the tape fold over on itself when taking it up, necessitating use of a razorblade to cut it away.
Gaffer's tape is what you want to use. It stays put quite well, but it comes up much easier & cleaner. You can even use it on carpet & it will come up cleanly, provided that you don't leave it there for long periods of time. (BTW, the tip about throw rugs - or bathmats, I would add - is right on, and a good idea in a traffic area even if the cable is taped.)
Every reputable audio company I've worked for uses gaffer's tape on cabling, and we usually have to tape cables at every gig. Not one of them would pack duct tape in with their systems.
You may have to hunt a little harder to find it, but it's available from many music & audio retailers, and you can always order it online if you have to.
_________________________
This is not a sig.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#1691937 - 09/09/06 01:36 AM
Re: Recording Acoustic Drums
|
Anderton
MP Hall of Fame Member
Registered: 01/28/00
Posts: 7346
|
|
Offline
|
|
See the reply in the "Endorsing Duct Tape?" thread.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
Moderator: Anderton, Matt Harper
|
|
|
