#1687802 - 07/27/05 12:02 PM
Gig pay: what's wrong with this picture?
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Jeff Klopmeyer
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Loc: Redondo Beach,CA,UNITED STATES
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It's become a not-very-funny joke in the gigging community: 25 years ago, my band would play at a bar and make $200-$300. And today, my band plays a club and makes... $200-$300.
Does anyone else see anything wrong with this? Over the last quarter-century, every other type of job compensation has gone up to meet the continual rise in cost of living requirements. Minimum wage has gone up by about 30% in the same time period. Why does band pay remain the same?
- Jeff
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#1687803 - 07/27/05 12:28 PM
Re: Gig pay: what's wrong with this picture?
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doug osborne
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That's not as bad as the decrease in recording studio hourly rates.
One more reason not to be excited because I haven't played a live gig in a while.
I am contemplating the word "value"...
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#1687804 - 07/27/05 12:42 PM
Re: Gig pay: what's wrong with this picture?
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PBBPaul
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Supply and demand.
Live music has lost a lot of its intrinsic value to the public. There're a lot of musicians and fewer and fewer places to play.
We recently came very close to losing our best consistent gig by being undercut by other bands. I had to reestablish our value to the club owner and remind him of the butts we consistently keep in the seats.
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#1687805 - 07/27/05 01:16 PM
Re: Gig pay: what's wrong with this picture?
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Jeff Klopmeyer
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Originally posted by PBBPaul:
Live music has lost a lot of its intrinsic value to the public. There're a lot of musicians and fewer and fewer places to play.
a. 25 years ago, it was less common to be competing with DJs and karaoke machines for musical entertainment.
b. It seems a lot of clubs and bars are more restricted by entertainment licenses that allow for live music. Zoning laws have tightened the confines of playing live music in clubs that are near residential areas due to noise complaints. Result: less clubs featuring live music at all.
c. There is no shortage of musicians, especially up-and-comers, who are willing to play for free.
The main thing in favor of an experienced band getting its proper payment is showing a return on investment for the club owner/manager. If you can position your band as attracting a large audience who will come in and spend money on drinks and food, it's a business decision that's worthwhile for the club.
So, like Paul said: bring in people, and they'll pay for your services accordingly.
- Jeff
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#1687806 - 07/27/05 04:09 PM
Re: Gig pay: what's wrong with this picture?
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MidLifeCrisis
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Jeff made some good points as to why club pay has not kept pace with inflation.
The only real option we have is to start playing other types of venues instead of clubs.
We have made a strong effort to focus on conventions, festivals, and yes the dreaded wedding as avenues for substantially higher paying gigs.
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#1687807 - 07/27/05 04:21 PM
Re: Gig pay: what's wrong with this picture?
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Jeff Klopmeyer
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Originally posted by MidLifeCrisis:
We have made a strong effort to focus on conventions, festivals, and yes the dreaded wedding as avenues for substantially higher paying gigs.
While some bands think it's beneath them to play events like block parties and the like, you should only scoff if you're not interested in making money.
We played a July 4 party last year under a canopy in a neighborhood street. Not only was the audience TOTALLY appreciative, but since the neighbors shared the cost for the band, we pulled a $400 fee plus got a nice bundle of tips.
Weddings, bar mitzvahs and corporate events will often be a band's highest potential payday. Keep in mind that as time goes by, audiences at these events don't just want to hear Sinatra and jazz standards. Wedding receptions, for example, can be a show that you rock as hard as you would at any club.
- Jeff
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#1687808 - 07/27/05 04:47 PM
Re: Gig pay: what's wrong with this picture?
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forceman
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Originally posted by Jeff Klopmeyer: Originally posted by PBBPaul:
Live music has lost a lot of its intrinsic value to the public. There're a lot of musicians and fewer and fewer places to play.
a. 25 years ago, it was less common to be competing with DJs and karaoke machines for musical entertainment.
b. It seems a lot of clubs and bars are more restricted by entertainment licenses that allow for live music. Zoning laws have tightened the confines of playing live music in clubs that are near residential areas due to noise complaints. Result: less clubs featuring live music at all.
c. There is no shortage of musicians, especially up-and-comers, who are willing to play for free.
The main thing in favor of an experienced band getting its proper payment is showing a return on investment for the club owner/manager. If you can position your band as attracting a large audience who will come in and spend money on drinks and food, it's a business decision that's worthwhile for the club.
So, like Paul said: bring in people, and they'll pay for your services accordingly.
- Jeff
BTW: Jeff--best of luck here in your new sandbox! 
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#1687809 - 07/28/05 07:26 AM
Re: Gig pay: what's wrong with this picture?
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Jabberwocky
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Registered: 07/14/05
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Loc: UK
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Yeah my band had the same problem, in fact some venues ( Those that have not stopped live music altogether) asked us to drop our rates coz they could get young and hungry bands much cheaper, lets face it, those callow youths would bite anyone's hand off to get a gig AND get paid ( in rice ) for doing it.
Our solution ??......we told the miserly venue owners (Whom we had never let down once in five years !) to insert their paltry paying gigs where the sun dont shine, we got ourselves into the rehearsal studio, seriously upped the ante with new material and a well rehearsed show compete with lights, strobes and a knock 'em dead set.We upgraded our website, bought a massive trailer and emblazoned the band logo and contact details on the side.
Then we got out there and marketed ourselves to festival, event and yes....even wedding organisers.
Now we are averaging 5 to 6 high paying gigs a month, each of which is financially equivalent to around 4 pub / club gigs.
The gigs are there. The live music appreciators are there. It just takes a little more effort to get it all together is all.
And mark my words, it will all come round again. Give it three or four years and live music will be 'in' again and they will be clamouring for our services again.
_________________________
Experience is the name everyone gives to their mistakes.
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#1687810 - 07/28/05 08:17 AM
Re: Gig pay: what's wrong with this picture?
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Tedster
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Welcome, Jabberwocky! What part of the UK do you hail from?
Yeah, these guys waiting across the street from the bar...
[img]http://images.google.com/url?q=http://www.thunderworks.net/images/CopCar1-Large.jpg[/img]
But you're absolutely right Jeff. Good God...$200-$300, in over-inflated California. It's the same in the midwest.
By the same token, I grabbed my acoustic guitar and worked up a bunch of solo tunes for drunkards to sing along to, and at the end of the night they shoved $200 in my pocket. (shrug)...I guess they don't care, that's their top line.
I have a lot more to say on this topic...in due time.
_________________________
"Cisco Kid, was a friend of mine...(WAH WAH WAH WAHHH!)"
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#1687811 - 07/28/05 08:58 AM
Re: Gig pay: what's wrong with this picture?
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Bill@Welcome Home Studios
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I don't play in a band regularly anymore, but whenever I might get asked to sit in (a handful of times a year) -I- walk away with $100 (if there is any pay. I do also just sit in for fun on gigs that I know will be fun).
When I had a band, the least we would accept was about $400, $425.
When I started playing in the 'big city' (circa 1966) gigs paid between $400 and $600. Later, show-ish bands (horns, girl singers, themes) were getting between $1850 and $3500 a night.
But rock bands regularly screw themselves and each other. They are stupid, when it comes to business.
In most cities they circumvented the musicians union, which at one time was quite powerful. The union sets minimum rates for players. Of course, the union was equally at fault, since they did not consider us rock players to be 'real musicians'.
The clubs fed on this, since they could rake in a better profit by hiring non-union musicians. Rock musicians didn't want to join the union, and the union didn't want them. So the clubs got the bulk of the money.
Booking agents also got into the act. I know one famous agent, who started out playing in a band himself. He started hiring bands to fill the gigs that his band could not fill, and next thing you know, he is booking those $400-$600 gigs, and filling them with high school bands, paying them $80 or $90, and pockenting the rest... then taking a 15% agency fee out of the $80 or $90 bucks. Cool, huh? So a whole bunch of emerging musicians thought that low pay was normal. (Side note.. he ended up with Clear Channel.)
But the bands do talk to one another, and soon the rates were climbing back up there.. nothing matching inflation, but getting reasonable again.
So what happens? Punk happens. 50 bands will play for a case of beer. We start all over again.
Here's the real deal when it comes to any marketing you might want to do: It is easier to get what you want up front, than it is to start out cheap and hope that you'll be able to get more money in the future. The big falacy under which most bands operate is that "if we go in cheap, they'll like us and eventually pay us more." Why should I pay you more, when you have obviously demonstrated that you'll play for less?
The next falacy is, "We'll only do it once..." Yeah, that's what the hooker on the corner said, too. It don't work.
Set your worth. Ask for what you are worth. Don't work for less. I'd rather work for free than for $10 if I feel that my work is worth $50.
Another thing that most player miss....Your expenses are real. They are also deductable. Professional dues. Magazines. Software. Continuing education. CDs. Strings. Gas. Trips in search of work. (Looked for work in Hawaii or the Bahamas lately?) The government allows you to deduct these items, if you declare the income from the work. Even if you spend more than you make playing, you can use the deductions to help offset your gross income (assuming that you have a job to pay the bills....), lowering the average income and thereby, lowering your tax bill.
But as to the original question... until yunz guyz stop working for cheap, there's no reason to pay ya more!
And if you think that your band can't get any more, then you have no complaint, or maybe you need to change what kind of music you play or how you play it. Good bands draw people. People generate capital. Club owners like this, and will pay for it. If the only bands that they can get for $200 are really only worth $200, they will up the ante.
Bill
_________________________
"...it's easier than hitting the kids, and almost as much fun..."
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#1687812 - 07/28/05 08:48 PM
Re: Gig pay: what's wrong with this picture?
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Guitar55
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Obviously, you were overpaid 25 years ago!
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#1687814 - 07/29/05 10:33 AM
Re: Gig pay: what's wrong with this picture?
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gwh1bass
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Here’s how we get our pay reduced. We played a gig recently at a local watering hole. The bar usually comps each band member a couple of drinks on a band tab. So after playing four sets and tearing down and loading up all the equipment, we get handed a tab for aprox $100. Seems to be friends and what not were putting their libations on our tab. Its after 2am and everyone has left, so what do you do, you pay up.
So there you go. We provide the entertainment and the drinks. Guess next time we better bring food also.
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#1687815 - 07/29/05 10:50 AM
Re: Gig pay: what's wrong with this picture?
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forceman
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I would not have paid that tab. Period.
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#1687816 - 07/29/05 12:01 PM
Re: Gig pay: what's wrong with this picture?
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Jeff Klopmeyer
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Originally posted by gwh1bass:
Seems to be friends and what not were putting their libations on our tab.
I would have a) demanded to know who was drinking specifically, b) asked the bar when anyone from the band had given their permission to have drinks charged to this tab, and c) raised holy hell with anyone who was, for all intents and purposes, stealing money from me. Friend or no, people need to know when their behavior is reprehensible, and this is a prime example.
And welcome to the forum!
- Jeff
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#1687817 - 07/29/05 01:45 PM
Re: Gig pay: what's wrong with this picture?
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forceman
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Well, it isn't the fault of the band, either...
I would never allow anyone to put drinks on my personal tab with my permission--what is the difference here?
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#1687818 - 07/29/05 02:04 PM
Re: Gig pay: what's wrong with this picture?
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getz76
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Stinks, but the majority of people in my age bracket (late 20s/early 30s) actually prefer a DJ. And for a DJ, $200-300 isn't too shabby when it's just split one-way. This is very true in my neck of the woods.
And, since a bar can get a DJ for $200-300 and usually draw a good crowd, why pay a band more cash if they will struggle to draw the same crowd?
The bar owners are in business to make money. Fewer and fewer bars are offering live entertainment, which is really a shame.
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#1687820 - 07/29/05 06:12 PM
Re: Gig pay: what's wrong with this picture?
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gitfidler
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Ask your club owner what he pays ASCAP, BMI and the others in annual dues for the privilege of having us three chord wonders wanking away in his place. One owner told me he has 50 people in the bar when the band is there, 40 when they're not --hardly worth the $200 - $300 it costs him. He just bought a bigger juke box.
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#1687821 - 07/29/05 10:45 PM
Re: Gig pay: what's wrong with this picture?
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RABid
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Very early '80s I was in a 5 piece band in a rural area. We made $1400 - $1700 a week for three nights. Paid the rhody $100 and split the rest. Members owned the PA and we used our trucks to haul equipment.
Middle '80s I was in a 5 piece band in a city. We brought in $2000 - $3000 a week playing 5 nights. Sometimes an occasional Sunday gig would put us up to $3500. After paying rhodies, manager, union dues, truck payment and PA payments we were not taking home any more than I was in the previous band.
Late 80's I was splitting between bands and DJ work. It seemed that suddenly, no one wanted to pay bands any real money. As a DJ doing parties, weddings and class reunions I could make $200 a night. I did not have to preactice new songs. I did not have to deal with band members. Of course, those people that hired me as a DJ also did not have to deal with band membors, limited song selection, problems with volume, etc.
Sad, but musicians can be their own worst enimy.
Robert
_________________________
All I need is one more keyboard.
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#1687822 - 07/29/05 11:32 PM
Re: Gig pay: what's wrong with this picture?
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Rik
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Registered: 07/23/03
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Loc: Wenatchee, WA
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You paid your rhodedendrons?
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#1687823 - 07/29/05 11:37 PM
Re: Gig pay: what's wrong with this picture?
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Rik
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Originally posted by getz76:
Stinks, but the majority of people in my age bracket (late 20s/early 30s) actually prefer a DJ.
I have an idea. That generation is accustomed to watching MTV and seeing bands that appear to be performing their songs live. They notice that these bands, when they perform in the video, sound exactly like the record. So then they hear a bar band playing the same song, and it doesn't sound exactly like the record, they think, "These guys suck!"
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#1687824 - 07/30/05 01:18 AM
Re: Gig pay: what's wrong with this picture?
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Bunny Knutson
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Guess how much my four-piece band got paid for our last gig. No, really, go ahead and guess.
$70.
Wow.
That's a whopping $12.50 each. 
Oh, but we got 12 drink tickets, too.
Someone should put us pathetic musicians out of our misery. STAT! :p
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#1687825 - 07/30/05 01:21 AM
Re: Gig pay: what's wrong with this picture?
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Bunny Knutson
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Which begs another question:
Did we do ourselves and our fellow musicians a disservice by even accepting such ridiculously low pay? Or should we have been glad to get a paying gig at all?
(The truth of the matter is that we were not expecting to get paid at all - we play original music, and nobody wants to hear original music, right?  )
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#1687827 - 07/30/05 04:58 PM
Re: Gig pay: what's wrong with this picture?
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doug osborne
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Bill, my past and present is much like yours - i do a couple of gigs a year, by accident probably, and come home with a crisp hundred dollar bill or two (for making music that I don't care about, usually).
I agree that it is important for musicians to work toward getting appropriate compensation for their work, but in this world very few people (from over-compensated CEOs to minimum-wage-earning teachers) get paid the right amount for what they do.
----------------------------
Facing clubs owners who pay way more than inflation would account for in insurance, benefits, etc., than they did twenty five years ago, its no wonder that part-time itinerent workers with no value to the clubowner other than possibly bringing in more customers, it's not hard to see why musicians' pay hasn't increased.
Unfortunately, musicians will continue to make music whether they are getting paid for it or not. The expressionists among musicians will also have the need to play this music to people through live preformances and recordings, and again they will want their music to be heard whether they get paid or not. Also, I can't think of any time in history when artists have been appropriately compensated for their work depending only on the merits of the work.
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#1687828 - 07/30/05 06:42 PM
Re: Gig pay: what's wrong with this picture?
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Bunny Knutson
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Bill, like I said, we weren't even expecting to get paid - this was our first gig in over a year, and we were too rusty to demand a lot of money. Really.
What's this stuff about "lose the emotional involvement"? We wouldn't have gotten the gig if we had asked for $500, straight up. We just wanted to play out, ya know? It was FUN. We don't earn our incomes from playing in a band, that's for sure. The fact is, we were happy to get any gig at all - heck, we hadn't even submitted a demo tape to the club.
I understand what you're saying about selling your band, but we were weren't playing that gig to make money. We were playing to have fun, and the pay was just a little bonus.
Maybe musicians should never play music unless someone is paying them a lot of money. 
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#1687829 - 07/30/05 10:18 PM
Re: Gig pay: what's wrong with this picture?
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Bill@Welcome Home Studios
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"I understand what you're saying about selling your band, but we were weren't playing that gig to make money. "
Then why bring it up under a thread about gig pay? If the theory is that bands don't get paid enough, then my points stand. If you didn't want the money, what can I say?
"Maybe musicians should never play music unless someone is paying them a lot of money. "
Maybe musicians should not play places that are making money because they are playing, without getting adequately recompensed.
If you want to set up somewhere and play for free, why would I care? If you want to go to a club that I play, and offer to play for significantly less than what I make playing there, you bet your ass I care. Then you are fucking all of us, to the benefit of the club owner. I don't mind competition. There have always been bands that made more, deservedly so, because they drew better. There have always been bands that didn't draw as well, and did not make as much. But the market should determine this. Start out by asking what you think that you are worth (or even what you need to make, or what yu know that other, better bands are getting in the same establishment), not the smallest amount that you think that the club owner will pay.
Bill
_________________________
"...it's easier than hitting the kids, and almost as much fun..."
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#1687830 - 07/30/05 10:29 PM
Re: Gig pay: what's wrong with this picture?
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Bill@Welcome Home Studios
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" but in this world very few people (from over-compensated CEOs to minimum-wage-earning teachers) get paid the right amount for what they do."
Well, the CEOs got what they asked for, and the teachers who belong to the teachers union make a good wage, at least, around here. Those not in the union get screwed.
"Facing clubs owners who pay way more than inflation would account for .....it's not hard to see why musicians' pay hasn't increased. "
Not true. Many bands do get decent pay. They simply start out by asking for it, and knew how to ask in such a fashion that they got it.
"Unfortunately, musicians will continue to make music whether they are getting paid for it or not. "
Nothing wrong with that. It is when they go to establishments that make money off of performers, and proceed to lower the entire wage scale for everyone else by their poor business sense, that is when I take exception. Everyone bitches about agents and agency fees, but look at what a crappy job they do on their own?
Bill
_________________________
"...it's easier than hitting the kids, and almost as much fun..."
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#1687831 - 07/30/05 11:13 PM
Re: Gig pay: what's wrong with this picture?
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Bunny Knutson
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Originally posted by bpark@prorec.com:
"I understand what you're saying about selling your band, but we were weren't playing that gig to make money. "
Then why bring it up under a thread about gig pay? If the theory is that bands don't get paid enough, then my points stand. If you didn't want the money, what can I say?
Oh, and I never said we "didn't want the money." We gladly took the money. There's no need to put words in my mouth.
Bill, I think your reasoning is legitimate, and your cause is righteous and just. The thing is, you'll never be able to lead an organized mass strike against club-owners to get them to raise band payment. There's no governing body through which to initiate a strike. There are WAY too many hungry bands out there who are willing to play FOR FREE (remember pay-to-play? gasp!). There's simply nothing you can do about it. It's sad, but true.
And even if you could lead the Gigging Musicians' Revolution™, the DJs would be right there, waiting to swoop in on all our gigs and gladly accept the lower pay for spinning some discs. I think you know that's true.
Meanwhile, rebellions aside, there are those of us who simply want to play a fun gig every once in a while, and we're not gonna wait around for your righteous revolution. Instead, we have day jobs.
It's all so futile, isn't it?
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