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#1687299 - 09/28/06 03:17 PM

Are my monitors rubbish ? or am I doing wrong ?

JayBurger
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Registered: 08/30/06
Posts: 70
Loc: Wigan, N.W. England

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Please advise me...

I am building a home recording studio.. I have several guitars, a Line 6 Pod XT Pro, a BOSS DR-880, and a Yamaha AW1600 digital workstation... going out to a pair of Roland DS-30A monitors.. Bear with me please...

I posted a question about my headphones not sounding the same as my monitors... thats sorted.. i understand that..

The monitors are connected to the monitor out sockets... But... I noticed a lack of 'punch' when using the drum machine.. fiddled with eq.. still a bit flat.. same with Pod xt Pro.. missing something..

I conected the aux outputs of the WS to my pc, and the sound came through the pc speakers (good quality ones).. and it sounded terrific.. totally different to the monitors.. it was the sound I was looking for..

Here are my questions...

Are my monitors a pile of dudu... or are they supposed to be flat ? or have i missed something else ?

Your advise as always appreciated and respected.

Cheers
Jason

#1687300 - 09/29/06 06:45 AM

Re: Are my monitors rubbish ? or am I doing wrong ?

Griffinator
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Registered: 03/28/02
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Listen carefully to the characteristics of what you hear coming out of the PC speakers. They are not a true representation of the mix, but they can be a guide for what you think is lacking.

My question to you is: Do you normally listen to your stereo (car or home) with that "scoop" EQ applied? Do you bump the bass and the treble automatically in the car?

It makes a huge difference on your perception of the music.

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#1687301 - 09/30/06 01:37 PM

Re: Are my monitors rubbish ? or am I doing wrong ?

audiofreek
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Registered: 05/09/01
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It may also have something to do with the posistions of the monitors.Were the computer speakers and the monitors in the same positions(swapped),or are they in separate positions?The Rolands should be flatter in response,the idea is to get as neutral a sound as possible,so that your mixes sound good on a variety of systems,including computer monitors.You may need to get a sub-woofer,or another pair of monitors that deliver a punchier sound,I'm sure the Rolands do not have much below 60Hz,but the punch you are hearing from the computer monitor is probably around 120-250Hz,these speaker are generaly hyped in that area to make them sound fuller,this also a trick used by some speaker,and sometimes,studio monitor manufacturers.
Also the room it self,your listening position,and speaker position can have a huge

effect on what you hear in terms of bass response.
You may want to Read the "read this first" thread in Ethan Winers' acoustic forum,it's extremely informative.
It is almost impossible to separate monitors and acoustics,but here are some guidlines you should follow when monitoring;
Around 85dB is prefered listening level,due to something called the Fletcher/Munson curves. Levels should not exceed 90dB.(get a decibel meter from Radio Shack).
Near feild monitors should not be positioned closer than 3 feet from the nearest wall,ceiling floor,or window.(Rear ported speakers are to be avoided).
Your listening position should be at 38 percent of the length of the room,and slightly off centre.
Your monitors,and head should form an equalateral triangle,ie monitors three feet apart,and you at three feet from each speaker.
Monitor from the most symetrical end of the room,ie..no funky corners,windows,doors jetting out into your mix postion area,that are not repeated on the opposing side of the room.
Do as much bass trapping,and acoustic treatment as economically feasable.

#1687302 - 10/01/06 05:48 AM

Re: Are my monitors rubbish ? or am I doing wrong ?

JayBurger
Senior Member

Registered: 08/30/06
Posts: 70
Loc: Wigan, N.W. England

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1st of all thanks for your replys.

My PC speakers are right next to the monitors... but they are 2.1, and the bass level is boosted on the sub / amp.

I have found the best way at the moment is to switch between the 2... use the monitors for the clarity of the seperate tracks, and at the flick of a button.. the sound id coming through the pc speakers.. with boosted bass and treble.

The shop where I bought these only had the roland ones in stock... so I bought what I could, and didn't have chance to try any others.

Think I better make the trip to a bigger store and check some more out there.

Can anyone reccomend a good monitor.. the yamaha ones look good... and I am very happy with the quality of my yamaha aw1600..

Any advice ?
Cheers.

#1687303 - 10/01/06 09:29 AM

Re: Are my monitors rubbish ? or am I doing wrong ?

miroslav
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Quote:

Originally posted by JayBurger:
...and the bass level is boosted on the sub / amp.

Not good.

What you do in your car, or in your living room to set your preferred listening tone balance is one thing.
But for monitoring while tracking/editing/mixing...you want accuracy, and that generally means a "flat" monitoring system...or at least one that is not "hyped" in any one area.

Try setting you PC speakers totally flat/centered, and do the same with your Rolands...
...which sounds better now...?

Here's another reality...monitors with 5" speakers are not going to be able to deliver a really big low end *naturally* (which also applies to your PC sub)...so they end up getting boosted/unbalanced too much during the mixing...and then you're messing with your overall mix, which probably won't translate well on other systems.

You may want to get monitors with at least 6" speakers if you are looking for some better low-end handling.
Also...what's your room like? How big is it?
You can try all kinds of good monitors that will sound like crap if the room is fighting you.

It's hard to recommend monitors without considering the room...and to a degree, the type of music you will be doing most of the time.
Hip-hip and classical may not work equally well on the same monitor.
If you can demo a few IN YOUR ROOM...that is the best way to select one.
Some local dealers may let you do that...most mail/Internet dealers give 30-45 day trial/return periods...so you do have some options to demo in your room.

My primary monitor is the Mackie 824…and I also have a secondary, the JBL 4206 …and then a larger, 3-way “listening” pair of old Technics SB-6 Hi-Fi speakers.
When doing any critical mixing decisions…I ONLY use the Mackies…I do NOT do the A/B/C back-and-forth thing like some folks, as that is akin to second guessing and/or even third guessing each and every decision you make.
The Mackies are my flat/accurate monitors...their frequency response is almost a straight line.
The JBLs are slightly smaller, and I tend to use them when I’m only doing basic cut/paste editing in my DAW, so I don’t bother to power up anything else in the studio except the DAW and those monitors.
And the Technics are there just for the “big Hi-Fi” speaker experience…only for final mix listening, and they are positioned at a different spot in the studio.

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miroslav - miroslavmusic.com

"Just because it happened to you, it doesn't mean it's important."

#1687304 - 10/02/06 07:25 AM

Re: Are my monitors rubbish ? or am I doing wrong ?

where02190
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Registered: 11/06/01
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Loc: Weymouth, Ma. USA

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Have you properly acoustically tuned your control room?
If not, even the best monitors will not be accurate.

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Hope this is helpful.

NP Recording Studios
Analog approach to digital recording.

#1687305 - 10/04/06 06:25 AM

Re: Are my monitors rubbish ? or am I doing wrong ?

Griffinator
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Loc: Lynchburg, VA, USA

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Regardless, nothing will help until he kicks the addiction to artificially enhanced bass and treble.

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#1687306 - 10/04/06 12:53 PM

Re: Are my monitors rubbish ? or am I doing wrong ?

Plugin Freak
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Registered: 10/04/06
Posts: 5
Loc: L.A. Bitches

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If you using Roland refernce monitors then you may also need somthing that sounds good besides
your PC speakers , somthing that has more range.
I like the Yamaha HS80M's they are alittle big
though , I would go with HS50M's if your in
a small space or you arent in a acoustically designed space. I made the mistake of getting
the 8inch spkr's and now I have much reflection
in the room. However my point is that the new Yamaha's arent as colored as people think,
they are not NS10M's either. So for the price
range I would say choose these about $350 ea.
for the 8 inchers. Then if you know people
that have NS10M's or the Standard mackie "HR824"
then test your mix on those model spkr. I even
recommend sort of a final reference over a P.A.
system JBL SRX or Mackie powered system would work.

#1687307 - 10/04/06 10:56 PM

Re: Are my monitors rubbish ? or am I doing wrong ?

Griffinator
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Registered: 03/28/02
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Loc: Lynchburg, VA, USA

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Plug: Not sure how having 8 inch speakers has anything to do with reflections in the room. Reflections existed before you put those speakers in, and if you really want to fight them off, barring room treatments, turn the volume down to below speaking volume. How big the speakers are has absolutely nothing to do with it.

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#1687308 - 10/05/06 07:18 AM

Re: Are my monitors rubbish ? or am I doing wrong ?

miroslav
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I think the reason 8" speakers are being mentioned, is because I also mentioned them earlier...since the original issue is about not having enough low-end.

When you have a small, 5” speaker...in a small enclosure. ..and you try to create big LF content...most often you end up boosting the LF unnaturally, since the smaller speakers are not designed to easily give you a whole lot in the 40Hz area...which is what was happening...the PC sub was cranked.

The 8" speakers will help the low end develop more naturally, since they are designed to deliver in the LF area….and of course, the enclosure and any porting is also tuned for the LF.
A bigger speaker/enclosure will always be more capable in the low end than a small desktop speaker.

That said…you have to also pick the size of your speaker, and the listening levels according to your room size. You can’t expect to have a big 3-way system cranking in a small 10’x10’ room without it all turning into sonic soup. $;\)$

So yeah....if the room is fighting you...then speaker changes alone may not do much to correct things.

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miroslav - miroslavmusic.com

"Just because it happened to you, it doesn't mean it's important."

#1687309 - 10/05/06 10:10 AM

Re: Are my monitors rubbish ? or am I doing wrong ?

Griffinator
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Operative word there being "cranking", Miro...

There's just no reason to mix above speaking volumes, particularly in a small room.

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#1687310 - 10/05/06 12:47 PM

Re: Are my monitors rubbish ? or am I doing wrong ?

miroslav
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Not sure what point you are going after, Griff...?
We have no idea about the size of the room in question...as it was never mentioned. $;\)$

As far as mixing volumes...

Even at low volumes, you will get a different sound out of a pair of 5" speakers as opposed to 8"...or something bigger.

And even at low volumes...an 8" speaker is going to better deliver LF content than a 5" speaker...assuming that both are housed in proportionally sized and equally well-tuned cabinets.

So...if you want that extended LF range...at any volume...you will get it more from bigger speakers.

Now...on the mixing levels...85 db SPL is the "norm" for longer periods if you don't want to fatigue/damage you ears.
Conversational speech comes in only at about 60 dB SPL...which is quite low for normal monitoring of music...though it may be good to bring the level down like that once in awhile just to get a different perspective for few moments.

If you mix to much outside that 85 dB SPL...especially much louder...
...the EQ curves of the human ear will get skewed.
too loud...and everything starts to flatten out...so that even if you are applying more Lows or Highs...you may not notice it.
And as go to lower levels...the high end will start to fall out on you rapidly.

I always mix between 75-85 db SPL, C-weighted.
I start the sessions at around 75...then slowly move up to 85 over several hours.
But every once in awhile, when I take a brake...I will also notch it back a bit.
Sorta' like taking two steps forward and then one step back. $\:D$
That way...I don't blow out my ears too fast...and it takes longer to hit the 85 mark.

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miroslav - miroslavmusic.com

"Just because it happened to you, it doesn't mean it's important."

#1687311 - 10/06/06 07:03 AM

Re: Are my monitors rubbish ? or am I doing wrong ?

Griffinator
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Registered: 03/28/02
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Loc: Lynchburg, VA, USA

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The point I'm kinda driving home here, Miro, is that in a small room, the louder you listen, the worse the reflections are going to skew what you hear.

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#1687312 - 10/06/06 07:34 AM

Re: Are my monitors rubbish ? or am I doing wrong ?

miroslav
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Quote:

Originally posted by Griffinator:
The point I'm kinda driving home here, Miro, is that in a small room, the louder you listen, the worse the reflections are going to skew what you hear.

:D

OK...no argument there Griff...and if you look at the thread, I already said the same thing above your post (you quoted me)…
...so I didn't understand why you were repeating it...and focusing on the "cranking" part.

What I was adding was that even without "cranking"...a small room will sound bad...even at lower volumes.
And if you go too low...then you will be deceiving your ears, since the HF content levels will drop off dramatically as you go lower.

But...I'm still not sure what size room we are even talking about...since JayBurger has never stated the dimensions. $;\)$

So we are on the same page…

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miroslav - miroslavmusic.com

"Just because it happened to you, it doesn't mean it's important."

#1687313 - 10/06/06 08:24 AM

Re: Are my monitors rubbish ? or am I doing wrong ?

where02190
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I rarely mix at 85dbA, typically my mix levels are in the 75-80 dbA range. These are peak levels, not average.

I keep an SPL meter right in front of me at all times to ensure my levels don't creep as a session goes on. I take frequent breaks, and ahve a little timer I set to go off every 2 hours, and when it does, I get up and walk away for at least 10 minutes. I find invaluable in keeping mixes consistant.

_________________________
Hope this is helpful.

NP Recording Studios
Analog approach to digital recording.

#1687314 - 10/06/06 08:25 AM

Re: Are my monitors rubbish ? or am I doing wrong ?

where02190
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Registered: 11/06/01
Posts: 5402
Loc: Weymouth, Ma. USA

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I rarely mix at 85dbA, typically my mix levels are in the 75-80 dbA range. These are peak levels, not average.

I keep an SPL meter right in front of me at all times to ensure my levels don't creep as a session goes on. I take frequent breaks, and ahve a little timer I set to go off every 2 hours, and when it does, I get up and walk away for at least 10 minutes. I find invaluable in keeping mixes consistant.

_________________________
Hope this is helpful.

NP Recording Studios
Analog approach to digital recording.

#1687315 - 10/06/06 11:26 AM

Re: Are my monitors rubbish ? or am I doing wrong ?

JayBurger
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Registered: 08/30/06
Posts: 70
Loc: Wigan, N.W. England

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The room is 16' x 12'. Its not acoustically tuned. or if it is, its by divine intervention..

I take your points about using too much bass... I must confess.. i do like bass.. And having listened to the monitors again.. and changed pc speakers back to my oringinal acoustic energy aego2's, I still think the monitors should have a bit more thump bottom end.

I am still learning how to use all the new stuff.. ie roland keyboard, pod xt pro, not to mention the studio itself... so I have not had the chance to record a full track... But I do have a little test piece I did just to test my set up.

If anyone had the time to listen to it for me and give me some advice on the actual sound / mix quality, I would greatly appreciate it.

Cheers Guys.

#1687316 - 10/06/06 11:34 AM

Re: Are my monitors rubbish ? or am I doing wrong ?

Griffinator
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Quote:

Originally posted by miroslav:
...so I didn't understand why you were repeating it...and focusing on the "cranking" part.

I know we're on the same page, I'm just a maniac about that particular point, and if nothing else, I want the original poster to come away with no doubts in his mind that a bad room plus high mix volumes is going to result in a bad mix. I can do a much better job in a bad room at low volume levels.

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#1687317 - 10/06/06 07:15 PM

Re: Are my monitors rubbish ? or am I doing wrong ?

where02190
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Quote:

Its not acoustically tuned

The root of your problem. Especially if you want accurate bass, acoustically tuning is a MUST!!!!!!!

_________________________
Hope this is helpful.

NP Recording Studios
Analog approach to digital recording.

#1687318 - 10/07/06 09:15 AM

Re: Are my monitors rubbish ? or am I doing wrong ?

JayBurger
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Registered: 08/30/06
Posts: 70
Loc: Wigan, N.W. England

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I have been looking for bookd regarding studio building / setup.. Can anyone reccomend a good studio building for dummies.. sort of book.

Cheers.

#1687319 - 10/07/06 01:57 PM

Re: Are my monitors rubbish ? or am I doing wrong ?

miroslav
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Go over to the Acoustics Forum...as there, the topics are all about studio treatments and building. Ethan Winer is THE man when it comes to treatment questions/answers.

While having a perfectly treated room is always the goal...don't feel that you can't ever do anything decent in a room that has not quite met that goal.
There has been a lot of great music done in unconventional studio spaces...but of course...it requires the engineer/mixer to work harder and to be intimately familiar with his room's quirks.
By removing most of those quirks with acoustic treatments...you can then focus on the real sound, without having to compensate for the room.

Most rooms can be helped to where they are at least pretty decent...with only minimal sonic quirks.
And the reality is...that unless you are going to build from the ground up...and also spend a good chunk of $$$ on getting it right...
...there is only so much that you can do with wall treatments to typical home/office/industrial structures.

But don't let that stop you or scare you.
A few surface treatments of varying types...some bass traps and some mid/high absorbers...some diffusion...proper speaker placement...
...and you will be able to get something pretty useable.

Keep it all in perspective...
...a home project studio for your fun...and a world class facility for commercial purposes will not require the same amount of investment and involvement.

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miroslav - miroslavmusic.com

"Just because it happened to you, it doesn't mean it's important."

#1890123 - 02/12/08 08:35 AM

Re: Are my monitors rubbish ? or am I doing wrong ? [Re: miroslav]

Cristiano
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Registered: 02/12/08
Posts: 4

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very cool........I would like to have a studio at my home

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