#1684207 - 04/15/06 12:45 AM
Re: So, I finally gave in and bought a...
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J.J. Blair
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Thanks, Mike. Being offset does explain it then!
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#1684208 - 04/15/06 08:06 PM
Re: So, I finally gave in and bought a...
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wwittman
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just to add, you CAN position two different amps and record them with only one mic.
also:
>>The better way to look at EQ is more of a "take-away" item over "add to".
I don't agree with that at ALL.
EQ is EQ and at least 75% of the time I add.
I rarely roll OUT, drums being the only notable exception.
I NEVER understanbd this emerging cult of "it's better to roll out than to boost"
another internet urban myth.
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#1684209 - 04/15/06 08:34 PM
Re: So, I finally gave in and bought a...
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miroslav
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Yes on the two amps....though that may not give as much dimension as tracking them separately with their own mics.
I'm not all that big on the super-staked guitar sound...nor do I do a lot of music that calls for it.
On the EQ thing….
I don't think it's an emerging cult...cutting instead of boosting.
It's just that in many cases, you can get into trouble a lot quicker boosting than you can cutting...and I think that's why people suggest doing that.
I boost frequencies as well as cut them...whatever is needed.
What I like to do when mixing...is to first find for each track which frequencies are the "bad ones"...the ones that are getting in the way...
...and I will cut them back as needed.
Then...once they are out of the way...I listen to the tracks/mix...and boost those frequencies that are beneficial to the track/mix.
There’s not set rule…
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#1684210 - 04/16/06 04:05 PM
Re: So, I finally gave in and bought a...
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audiofreek
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Cutting instead of boosting came about because of the,noise,distorion,and phase inchoherentcies caused by the amplifier assigned to the frequency(ie op amp).
If you are cutting on an analog EQ,it is passive,and therefore,not introducing noise,and any other amplification issues.In live sound,too much boost eats up headroom,and in certain fringe situations, could blow drivers.
With plugins,these are not really issues, just the qualiy of the plug,as I see it. It's just so much easier to slot in instruments in a mix,by cutting away the overlap of another instument,rather than trying to force them in with a boost.By the same token,I will quite often sweeten the top end by adding highs,or give warmth by boosting the low-mids.
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#1684211 - 04/16/06 10:10 PM
Re: So, I finally gave in and bought a...
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J.J. Blair
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Originally posted by audiofreek:
Cutting instead of boosting came about because of the,noise,distorion,and phase inchoherentcies caused by the amplifier assigned to the frequency(ie op amp.
If you are cutting on an analog EQ,it is passive,and therefore,not introducing noise,and any other amplification issues.In live sound,too much boost eats up headroom,and in certain fringe situations, could blow drivers.
Besides, boost eats up headroom in any application. But that can be fixed by lowering the overall gain structure. A channel's headroom has nothing to do with blowing up drivers. Volume does. I've had people blow up drivers by adjusting the gain too high without touching the EQ.
With plugins,these are not really issues, just the qualiy of the plug,as I see it.
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#1684212 - 04/17/06 04:47 PM
Re: So, I finally gave in and bought a...
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audiofreek
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"Not all EQs use op amps. A lot of EQs are passive, as well. Besides, one of the great things about EQs like Neves and Tridents is the harmonic distortion."
True,But when you are cutting,You are using the filter.
It's something I've been regurgetating from my recording arts prof,and I'm sure it's something he regurgetated,(he was not a Electronics engineer,nor am I) Some Eqs combine filters and op amps,some don't.
All I'm trying to put forth,is that cutting introduces fewer issues,I've accepted this on faith,and my own experiences with EQ.
I think some of the statements I made where a little to general,especially the plugin one
I am just trying to say that there are,of course real reasons for the cut rather than boost philosophy.
"Besides, boost eats up headroom in any application. But that can be fixed by lowering the overall gain structure. A channel's headroom has nothing to do with blowing up drivers. Volume does. I've had people blow up drivers by adjusting the gain too high without touching the EQ."
In a live situation,a soundman could grab the 30hz slider on the graph and boost it by 12 dB,in some systems you'll hear a big difference,in some you won't,but the difference in the excurtion of the bass driver will be huge.
"A channel's headroom has nothing to do with blowing up drivers".
Heat,caused by DC,from a square wave,will fry a voice coil,distortion does blow drivers.
Again just trying to put forward reasons why this,philosophy/ urban myth exists,But again you are correct,distortion from a single channel will not blow drivers,it has to come from the stereo buss,or power amp it self.
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#1684213 - 04/19/06 02:51 AM
Re: So, I finally gave in and bought a...
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wwittman
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>>I am just trying to say that there are,of course real reasons for the cut rather than boost philosophy.
and alligators living in the NY sewers... "of course"
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#1684214 - 04/19/06 02:55 AM
Re: So, I finally gave in and bought a...
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wwittman
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JJ wrote:
>>There is no sound as vile as digital clipping.
Well, almost no sound as vile, you're forgetting about Steely Dan.
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#1684215 - 04/19/06 03:09 AM
Re: So, I finally gave in and bought a...
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J.J. Blair
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William, you troll!
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#1684216 - 04/19/06 10:16 AM
Re: So, I finally gave in and bought a...
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miroslav
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Originally posted by wwittman:
JJ wrote:
>>There is no sound as vile as digital clipping.
Well, almost no sound as vile, you're forgetting about Steely Dan. 
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#1684217 - 04/19/06 11:04 AM
Re: So, I finally gave in and bought a...
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getz76
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Nice.
Can we start a thread for "The Most Vile Sound in the World"?
I mean, the forum does say "Use Your Ears", right? 
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#1684218 - 04/19/06 03:40 PM
Re: So, I finally gave in and bought a...
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J.J. Blair
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Oh, that would be a one post thread: Yoko Ono.
You can't trump that.
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#1684219 - 04/19/06 04:19 PM
Re: So, I finally gave in and bought a...
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getz76
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Originally posted by J.J. Blair:
Oh, that would be a one post thread: Yoko Ono.
You can't trump that.
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#1684220 - 04/20/06 10:23 PM
Re: So, I finally gave in and bought a...
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wwittman
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Like Meher Baba, I have said all I have to say...
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#1684221 - 04/28/06 06:09 PM
Re: So, I finally gave in and bought a...
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Mike P
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Hey Guys,
Thanks again for all of the replies and I apologize for being out of the loop lately. I've had too much going on the past few weeks but with everything finally wrapped up, I'm back at it again.
I've posted a quick, dopey little riff that illustrates the "best" tone that I've been able to acheive with a single Royer on my Recto setup. It's pretty good, but still not exactly what I'm hearing for my final tracks. Today, I ordered another Bogner Cube and will probably go with a Radial JX so that I can split my guitar and record both the Recto & the '77 Marshall JMP simultaneously.
Thanks again to all that replied.
Mike
http://www.mjplas.com/mike/test21.mp3
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#1684222 - 04/28/06 08:52 PM
Re: So, I finally gave in and bought a...
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miroslav
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Since this thread was primarily about using a ribbon mic...
...has anyone seen/tried the new Sontronics ribbon...the Sigma...?
http://www.sontronics.com/sigma.htm
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#1684223 - 05/03/06 10:27 PM
Re: So, I finally gave in and bought a...
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dementedchord
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curiouser and curiouser.... i wonder if the guy who doesnt like too cut but boost instead is the long lost cousin of the guy who setup the rig i had too mix on a few mon back.... his eq philosophy was to cut all freqs...pull them all down to the bottom... boost the output to managable levels... the pull each freq back up till just short of feedback.... any one say phase anomaly???
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#1684224 - 05/13/06 08:01 PM
Re: So, I finally gave in and bought a...
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audiofreek
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OK,here's a post that applies to both ribbon mics and EQ.
I Have found that ribbon mic tracks seem to be able to take more EQing(cut or boost) than most condensor or dynamic tracks.The tracks just sound smoother,even with extreme boosts.
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#1684225 - 06/02/06 02:16 PM
Re: So, I finally gave in and bought a...
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J.J. Blair
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I think that part of that is due to the fact that generally mics that are less bright sound more pleasant when you EQ them than bright mics, and ribbons are almost always darker than condensors. Ribbons are dynamic mics, though. They just aren't moving coil dynamics.
The reason that all dynamics tend to be darker than condensors is that the physics involved require more energy to convert sound into a charge with a dynamic, than with a capacitor (condensor) mic. The physical movement of either the moving coil or the ribbon is not as economical as the resonance of a condensor diaphrgam. Dynamics may tend to make up these losses in high end with the coloration of the transformer, but even with that boost, the initial capturing of the transients is inferior to capacitor technology.
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#1684226 - 06/03/06 10:58 PM
Re: So, I finally gave in and bought a...
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audiofreek
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That sounds completely logical J.J. I wonder if the lack of electronics/negative feedback could have something to do with it as well?
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#1684227 - 06/04/06 04:59 PM
Re: So, I finally gave in and bought a...
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J.J. Blair
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Not all condensors employ an NFB circuit. In fact, the mics which generally use NFB have less high end response, and bypassing the NFB circuit will give you a brighter, more open mic. Negative feedback is destructive interference, esentially. It's subtractive, not additive.
As far as whether or not a condensor mic is bright or dark, it's a number of contributing factors: The capsule, the amplifier circuit and the transformer. For instance, the U67 microphone is generally darker than a U47. However, the K67 is a brighter capsule than a K47. It's the NFB circuit in the U67 that gives it its dark character. (Which incidentally, is done in the U67 because it was built to German broadcast specifications, which demanded it not exceed a specific frequency range.) Yet, a mic like the Ela M251 is brighter than both of those, because the amplifier does not employ NFB to curtail top end, and you can actually hear how bright and open the CK12 capsule is.
And of course, all transformers have a signature sound. Transformers are employed in most condensors, in almost all ribbons, and in a number of moving coil mics.
But back to the original point, I find that darker mics, condensor or ribbon, tend to take EQ better in the highs. When you don't have those presence peaks, you don't have to worry about those particular frequencies getting too obtrusive.
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#1684228 - 06/05/06 11:21 PM
Re: So, I finally gave in and bought a...
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audiofreek
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Most of the condesors I can afford do employ negative feedback.Do you know of any non German mics,in a modest price range that don't?
I've heard that some of the Groove Tubes mics don't.I guess it would need to employ an output transformer?
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#1684229 - 06/07/06 12:50 PM
Re: So, I finally gave in and bought a...
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J.J. Blair
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What's your budget? I've said it a million times, but I am a big fan of the Langevin CR3A / CR2001. Terry Manning is very fond of the RØDE mics.
What exactly is the application you are looking for, too? A vocal mic? An all around mic?
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#1684230 - 06/08/06 12:31 AM
Re: So, I finally gave in and bought a...
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audiofreek
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Well,I'm basically in the used market,around $1,000.00US.I would prefer to buy over engineered,vintage,than a new mic that won't hold it's dollar value.The exception to my rule would be,if that microphone had exceptional capability.That's why I like ribbons so much,there really are alot of bargains out there if you are patient,and shop around.
I do own a Rode K2,A COUPLE OF AT 4050s,a 70s U87,and couple of chinese mics,for my large diaphrams. I like my Neumann,it's very versatile,but prefer my ribbons(RCA 44BX,RCA Varacustic,STC 4033) when they suite the purpose(vocals).I'd like to get a pair of ribbons for overheads(Beyer 260,or 160).
When you talk AKG C12,Tele Elam 251,Neumann U47;
All I hear is;D.I.V.O.R.C.E.
What are the Langevins going for?What do they compare to?
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#1684231 - 06/08/06 08:26 AM
Re: So, I finally gave in and bought a...
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miroslav
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Originally posted by audiofreek:
Well, I'm basically in the used market, around $1,000.00US.
The CE has, IMO, a cooler looking screen than the TT....but they are the same mic...with the CE being the "Commemorative Edition"..."hand picked"...and all that.
It's a multi-pattern tube...9 main patterns, with 17 possible, when you include the back side.
I have the CE, and just love it on vocals. I've used it on male baritone and tenor, and also female alto...it's smooth and warm with clarity. It doesn't get muddy if you move in on it...
…and if you scream into it...it doesn't shit the bed.
But...it's not a "vintage" mic...
http://www.adkmic.com
You can talk to Larry Villella - Pres/CEO about the ADK TT/CE, he's pretty friendly...a cool dude.
503-296-9400
Tell him Miroslav said hi. 
You can also check out the buzz on their web site forums.
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#1684232 - 06/08/06 09:25 PM
Re: So, I finally gave in and bought a...
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audiofreek
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I own an ADK TC(one of my chinese mics,I think?),and I really like it on vocals as well,not alot of bottom,doesn't handle high spl.
It just sounds really sexy on female vocals,works well on acoustic guitar too.
I see they are still quite pricey,I didn't expect them to hold there value,when all of the Chinese competition moved in,but they haven't budged.I am still kicking my self for missing out on a really sweet deal,with a matched pair of the transformerless large diaphrams,I got to try them out,and did a shoot-out with all of my mics,and some of my local dealers collection.They kicked some serious ass.I opted for the tube cardiod,I don't regret that,but only wish that I could have bought them all.
My only beef with ADK is that thier cables suck.
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#1684233 - 06/09/06 09:22 AM
Re: So, I finally gave in and bought a...
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J.J. Blair
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The Langevins list at $800, which means you can probably get them for around $650. They are fixed cardioid, but I'd take one any day over a U87. They literally sound good on everything.
The other mic that I think is amazing in that price range is the Brauner Phantom AE. It's also cardioid only, but it is amazing.
For a grand, I'm not sure that you are going to be able to get a non Chinese or non RØDE tube mic. Your best bet is probably going to be to get the highest quality FET condenser you can.
For slightly over a grand, I highly recommend the Pearlman 47 clone. Really a tremendous mic. Check out Mojave audio, too, if they are still making them.
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#1684234 - 06/09/06 01:43 PM
Re: So, I finally gave in and bought a...
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miroslav
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The ADK TC is a fixed cardioid pattern...the TT/CE gives you many more options.
Also....they are not pure "Chinese" mics...at least not the upper-end ADKs.
They may be assembled in China, but the R&D and most of the parts come from elsewhere....as is my understanding.
I think the capsules for the upper end ADKs are assembled in Europe, if I'm not mistaken.
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