#1684177 - 04/04/06 08:43 PM
So, I finally gave in and bought a...
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Mike P
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Royer R121 microphone. I've been struggling with capturing my guitar tone and I was told by a Royer endorser that it would do the trick for me. So after months of trying to get my "sound" with a variety of condensers and dynamics (and a combination of all of them), I broke down and ordered the Royer on Saturday and it just arrived.
It definitely has a huge sound, but it's also lacking in the top end (at least to me). The most annoying thing about the purchase is that for $1200 mic (though that's no where near what I paid for it), you'd think it would at least come with a mic clip! The Royer fit in my seldom used SM57 clip, but since I was needing more top, I had to run over to West LA music to buy a $3.25 rubber mic clip so that I blend in the 57. Crazy!
For anyone considering a Royer, I also found out today that the Royer shockmount is actually an Audio-Technica 8410a shockmount, just rebranded. It's about $50 anywhere online. There are also some helpful samples of the Royer & the Royer/57 on their website. Those definitely helped in my purchase decision.
Anyone else have the same Royer experience? Am I crazy (don't answer that) for wanting to hear more top end than this mic alone provides? Anyone? Bueller?
Mike
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#1684178 - 04/04/06 10:22 PM
Re: So, I finally gave in and bought a...
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getz76
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Are you sure your tone isn't too bassy for recording? If your source sound is too bassy, you will want more high end.
My guitarist uses that same Royer with a Les Paul -> various pedals -> Vox AC 15. In the right room, it sounds fantastic.
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#1684180 - 04/04/06 10:55 PM
Re: So, I finally gave in and bought a...
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Mike P
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Hey Getz -
It's definitely not too bassy, but it is thick. It's a 1993 Les Paul Classic (w/Gibson 57 pickups) into a Recto Recording Preamp/Rectifier Power amp into a Bogner Cube with an 80 watt Celestiion Classic 80 speaker. The gain's only at 1 O'clock, so it's not super distorted. I have the same problem with my '77 Marshall JMP 50 watt head.
I'm sure that if I was going for a cleaner sound (like a Vox or Fender), I wouldn't have the problem. The ironic thing here is that this is the exact opposite of what I was hearing with other mics - not enough bottom.
The bass on the amp is all the way off. The Bogner Cube is just a huge, deep sounding 1x12 cab and I think that's part of it.
BTW, the Sennheiser e906 is a better match (at least for me) with the Royer than a 57.
Mike
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#1684181 - 04/04/06 11:00 PM
Re: So, I finally gave in and bought a...
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Mike P
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Hey J.J. -
I figured that EQ would be my last resort. I thought I'd try mic position and another mic instead of EQ because I don't have any truly excellent EQ's (Mackie D8B, UAD-1 & Waves plugs which are all okay, but it's not like having a nice Pultec in the rack). I guess that should be next on my never ending quest.
Or I could just be mental. Sometimes, I wonder. 
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#1684182 - 04/05/06 10:03 AM
Re: So, I finally gave in and bought a...
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miroslav
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I can't get happy with either the e906 or the 57...they both sound too "thunky/nasally"...for my tastes...so I don't know how you are managing to get any decent high end with either of them.
And I happen like a nice chunky sound with lots of low end...but the 609 & 57 seem to always need another mic to cover the parts that they don't/can’t get.
For mid-range sound...they're OK...but not what I like.
I prefer a nice fat low end...but one that also has some of the HF sparkle (not harshness).
For that...my go-to is a GT AM62 tube mic...set it back from the cab about 14"-24".
I get the whole frequency spectrum....then I just shape it to taste during mixdown. 
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miroslav - miroslavmusic.com"Just because it happened to you, it doesn't mean it's important."
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#1684183 - 04/05/06 10:19 AM
Re: So, I finally gave in and bought a...
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bags
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i wish i had an R121 to work with, but based on the comments i'm reading in this thread, i think you guys may be missing one key concept...
... - how the captured sound fits into the mix.
sure, the Royer may not have the high end you want, or the 57 might be too nasally for you, but how does it sound in the mix?
Sure, if it's a mix with alot of space - i.e. an acoustic guitar and vocals only... you may be looking for a specificly big and bright guitar sound with lots of clear low end. But, try fitting that same guitar sound into a mix with 4 other guitar parts, drums, hammond, percussion, vocals, backing vocals, etc... and you might find that the 57 or the 609 are just what the doctor ordered. What may sound "nasally" by itself may just have the right amont of mid bump that will fit into a cluttered mix perfectly.
Anyway, isn't this how the 57 got to be so famous afterall. it's never been THAT great a mic on its own. but people sure seem to have luck with it and it's been used on guitars (& vox) since before i was born.
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#1684184 - 04/05/06 11:24 AM
Re: So, I finally gave in and bought a...
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Mike P
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Miroslav,
I'm with you on the e906 & SM57 when they're alone. The 57 has always been too thin and harsh for my taste and while the e906 is better, there's not much bottom to work with.
And of course, it's possible to get both of these mics to sound good in a mix. But I'm wanting to hear GREAT, not just good. My mixes have always been good, but I've spent an absolute ton of money on my studio in the past year, trying to take it to the No Excuses, Pro Level and I'm finding that it's just not possible to cut any corners, especially with microphones.
FTR, my guitar tone is definitely Modern Rock - not as distorted or heavy as Godsmack or Disturbed, but not as clean as Foo Fighters. Somewhere in between. And I'm a picky bastard as well.
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#1684185 - 04/05/06 01:55 PM
Re: So, I finally gave in and bought a...
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miroslav
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Originally posted by bags:
...i think you guys may be missing one key concept...
... - how the captured sound fits into the mix.
sure, the Royer may not have the high end you want, or the 57 might be too nasally for you, but how does it sound in the mix?
...I always have the option to shape the sound any way I like later on…for the specific purpose of getting it to fit in the mix.
If I want mid-range twang and edge...no problem, I just roll off the low and high end.
If I want a scooped mid-range...no problem, I just knock that area down.
But if I record with a limited/narrow range mic...then I have NO choice but to make it fit the only way it can…rather than having other options during mixdown.
I do use the occasional dynamic. I always spot mic with them on snare and kick…but for most other things I seem to always end up with a condenser (tube or FET)…especially when I have some distance between source and mic.
Yeah...I know a lot of guitars have been recorded with a 57 pressed up against the speaker grill, but I really like some air in between the mic and the source...and IMO...a 57 or 609 isn't going to fair as well when set back a few feet like a nice condenser will.
Plus, I like a low end that has a nice amount of string "plunk/thump" but also with a nice high-end sheen...and not as much of that mid-to upper-mid range edge/hardness.
With guitars, I'm mostly a neck pickup guy...as I find the bridge PU on most guitars rather rude and irritating…though I know a lot of guys use it exclusively…in order to "cut through the mix".
From my experience...I find that it's a lot easier to roll off existing frequencies that I don't want in the mix...instead of trying to pull out ones that are weak, or not there in the first place.
I tend to track most things at full-spectrum...and then I trim off the excess during mixdown as needed so that all the tracks play well with each other.
I guess if you have a very clear, set plan on how everything will sound during mixdown…then maybe you CAN go for more “narrow margins” during tracking, and not worry about limiting your options.
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miroslav - miroslavmusic.com"Just because it happened to you, it doesn't mean it's important."
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#1684186 - 04/09/06 04:40 PM
Re: So, I finally gave in and bought a...
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wwittman
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WHY is EQ a "last resort"
For most of the world's greatest recording engineers it was always a first resort.
And it's almost certainly less problematic than adding a second mic.
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#1684187 - 04/09/06 04:41 PM
Re: So, I finally gave in and bought a...
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wwittman
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ps, i have NO idea how the 57 got to be "so famous" other than it's dirt cheap.
and worth every penny.
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#1684188 - 04/09/06 04:41 PM
Re: So, I finally gave in and bought a...
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wwittman
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ps, i have NO idea how the 57 got to be "so famous" other than it's dirt cheap.
and worth every penny.
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#1684189 - 04/09/06 10:14 PM
Re: So, I finally gave in and bought a...
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Mike P
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Hey William -
I guess you dislike the 57 so much that you needed to post your comment twice for effect!
EQ isn't necessarily my last resort, but I have to say, I really don't like the sound of distorted rock guitars that have been EQ'd, especially Rectifer/Bogner type amps (I.E., the first Saliva record, Nickelback, etc.). That "artifical" top end makes me cringe. I find it so un-musical.
Since I'm only concerned with "Self Producing" and preparing my work for Film/TV use (and I'm not dependent or trying to please clients), I can afford the luxury of experimentation, including multiple mics, etc. In the past, I've EQ'd a source to the point where I like it, then have gone back and placed the mics in such a way that it emulates the EQ'd sound. In those cases, it has always come out more natural than the EQ'd sound.
Since my original post (when I'd only had the mic for about five minutes and to be honest, wanted to share the fact that I got a Royer with someone other than my wife and two dogs), I've found that the mic is capturing my sound quite well from about 8" from the grill, pointing straight ahead and slightly to the right of the cone. I'll post a sample later this week(and then you guys can REALLY rip into me!).
Mike
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#1684190 - 04/10/06 01:10 AM
Re: So, I finally gave in and bought a...
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wwittman
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I suspect the aspects of that rectifier/"modern"/sizzly/over limited sound that you dislike don't have much to do with EQ.
Or at least EQ is way down the list.
I did a little guitar recording demo during AES San Francisco, last year, and one of the things I did was to place an 87 and a Royer 121 close to the amp...
then I EQ's the Royer until it fairly closely matched the 87 TONALLY.
But it STILL had a very different CHARACTER.
The point was that the ribbon sounds "like a ribbon" for a variety of reasons, not the least of which being its attack time relative to a condenser, and probably the actual least of which being its EQ.
It's NOT that ribbons are darker, or at least it's not MOSTLY that, that makes them desireable.
Despite what Focusrite or Antares try to sell you, you can't roll the top off an 87 and make it sound "like" a ribbon and you can't brighten a ribbon and make it sound like a condenser.
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#1684191 - 04/10/06 02:08 AM
Re: So, I finally gave in and bought a...
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Mike P
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William,
Thank you for the comparative analysis. This is my first ribbon microphone and as I stated in the first post, I've been trying to capture my "tone" and have failed (IMO) to this point.
If you're trying to express that each microphone "feels" different, I wholeheartedly agree with you. With the e906, I was experiencing the "white noise" top end. And while that was extremely pleasing while playing (almost electricfying the fretboard), it was undesirable upon playback. The same was true with several "under $500" LDC's.
I find the ribbon mic "harder to play to". The white noise on the top end is gone and as such, so is some of the "sizzle" and play-ability. I'm stuck with a Mackie D8B console (though several nice Vintech and BAE API 312C clones for tracking), so without being in the same room as you, I'm not sure (from lack of experience) if we'd have the same result from EQing.
Fortunately, I don't own Mic Modeler nor a Liquid Channel, and haven't succumbed to their evil deeds . But this exercise has armed me with the knowledge that I could walk into any session and know how to play like I can play.
Thanks again for responding.
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#1684192 - 04/10/06 01:04 PM
Re: So, I finally gave in and bought a...
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miroslav
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There are certain guitar/amp/cab...and mic/pre...combinations that give me that "sizzle" when they are set more for distortion instead of clean.
It can be annoying...that "sizzle" that sits up in the 10k-to-13k range.
I know the "sizzle" adds to the overall "distorted" sound...
...but I prefer more mid-to-low end distortion that has a cleaner top end.
Sometimes the right combination gives me that exactly...other times I have to really work to get the right balance.
I think much can be changed by using different tubes in the preamp position of the guitar amp...though it's not always easy/quick to try out a bunch of tubes in the heat of the moment.
Also...I suspect the better quality condensers will always pick up the upper-end "sizzle" more than a 57 or 609 mic would.
I've been using a nice tube mic on most of my guitar cabs, which usually gives me the best overall sound I want...though I may have to try out some other mics in an effort to remove that "sizzle" on some occasions, as it sure can annoy me when it is too prominent! 
A lot also depends on how it all sits in the mix.
I have yet to get a ribbon...but I'm planning on it.
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miroslav - miroslavmusic.com"Just because it happened to you, it doesn't mean it's important."
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#1684193 - 04/11/06 06:52 PM
Re: So, I finally gave in and bought a...
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wwittman
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You know it occurs ot me that one way to get what you seem to be describing is to use TWO amps... one set for darker distortion and another set for bright but CLEAN top.
It's a bigger pain, but it can work.
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#1684195 - 04/12/06 09:40 AM
Re: So, I finally gave in and bought a...
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blas
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You ask about EQ as last resort. Yes, the right mic in the RIGHT place can give unbelievable results. The better way to look at EQ is more of a "take-away" item over "add to". It's all about using your ears.
But those that twist knobs to the max, tend to box themself in a corner....and we all know how bad a corner sounds!
Good luck
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#1684196 - 04/12/06 10:51 AM
Re: So, I finally gave in and bought a...
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Mike P
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Hey William -
Thank you very much for taking the time to make further suggestions. It's greatly appreciated.
Yesterday, I spent several hours (finally) trying different mic placement, recording, making notes of postions, etc. for a comparative playback and final placement. What I've found is that I don't think my issue lies within the choice of microphones - I think it's my particular guitar/amp/cab setup and my ears.
With the Sennheiser e906 and the R121, I essentially came back to the same place. In the end, the guitars tracked with each of those mics sounded remarkably similar. So that particular sound must the sound that my ears have determined is the best that I can get for the gear that I own. As much as it feels like an excerise in futility, it was enlighting as well.
Thank you for the suggestion of using multiple amps. I think that's where I'm headed next.
Thanks to all that have made suggestions, and I'll work to get some samples up in the 24 hours.
Mike
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#1684197 - 04/12/06 11:18 AM
Re: So, I finally gave in and bought a...
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miroslav
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Originally posted by Mike Plas:
Thank you for the suggestion of using multiple amps. I think that's where I'm headed next.
Of all the instruments I record...the guitar sound is something I am most critical about.
Where I can usually get by with any of the various piano/organ/drum sounds that I may have to pick from...somehow, the guitar tone has to be just right for a given song.
Of course...I think a lot of it has to do with my ears, (like you also noticed)...and there is a specific sound I have to have to accept it as good.
Plus...a lot of the music I'm doing...guitar is the featured instrument...or what I would consider as the “key” instrument for getting the particular flavor I want in the songs.
Plus…I’m mostly a guitar player…even though I also play keys…bass…etc…
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miroslav - miroslavmusic.com"Just because it happened to you, it doesn't mean it's important."
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#1684198 - 04/12/06 11:28 AM
Re: So, I finally gave in and bought a...
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Mike P
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Miroslav,
The use of multiple amps is very common, especially in the heavier, modern rock vein. One producer that I know blends Bogner & Marshall amps for almost every release (using a Radial splitter). Another, on a more rootsy record found the producer blending an old Marshall and my 1970 Silver faced Bassman 50.
The only reason I hadn't tried this up to the this point is that I'd have to purchase another cab, mic, etc. I can try blending my Marshall 1977 JMP50 with the Mesa setup. Unfortunately, I loaned the Fender head (which was really, really cool sounding, especially with a old TS8 in front of it) and it was never returned.
I guess we all learn those lessons the hard way...
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#1684200 - 04/12/06 12:07 PM
Re: So, I finally gave in and bought a...
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Mike P
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Miroslav,
My basic tracking process is two tracks panned right and left through the Vintech 273, and two tracks through the BAE 312. If I'm going for a Brit-Pop sound or need something percussive, I'll record two tracks with the Les Paul and two tracks with either a Strat or Tele. It's a great way to "texturize" a song, especially distorted guitars.
But as I alluded to earlier (and after all the testing I've done with single & multiple mics, ribbons, dynamics and condensers), I think the added dimension that I feel I'm missing is not coming from a specific microphone, but from the use of only one amp.
Thanks for the added input!
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#1684201 - 04/12/06 12:44 PM
Re: So, I finally gave in and bought a...
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Chuck Zwicky
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I agree with William Wittman, If you have a nice EQ you can get all the top end you can stand from a ribbon, but because of the ribbon's rectangular capsule the response is less peaky or 'zingy' than a round diaphragm mic. I love my 121 on acoustic guitar, too.
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#1684202 - 04/12/06 01:00 PM
Re: So, I finally gave in and bought a...
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miroslav
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Originally posted by Mike Plas:
I think the added dimension that I feel I'm missing is not coming from a specific microphone, but from the use of only one amp.
But you can also try messing with the wet/dry ratio of the two different guitars...and then you can also take one guitar track...do a split....and then sending the split to a delay (or just nudge it in your DAW)...or…processing that split a little differently, and then adding it back in to the "untouched" split.
I often take a single guitar track…and with my Aux, I’ll send it to a delay (something on the short side, depending on the song’s tempo)…then I’ll pan the original hard to one side, and the delay hard to the other.
The single guitar just gets huge like that…but then you have to watch out how it masks the other instruments.
In other words...you can achieve a "multi-amp" split setup WITHOUT using multiple amps.
Record one amp...and then just split that single track into whatever you want.
Heck, with a DAW...you can split it a dozen times if you like...and you can apply any kind of processing/texture to each of those splits and then mix them all back into a single our multiple guitar tracks.
Then there's the whole re-amp thing...though I find it rather awkward to record a guitar direct/clean...and then shape it's tone afterwards.
Yeah...I know you can split it, and still have an amp going in the studio while you only track the direct sound...but, as a guitar player...I kinda' want to track exactly what I am hearing in the room coming out of the amp.
One guitar...one amp...one mic.
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miroslav - miroslavmusic.com"Just because it happened to you, it doesn't mean it's important."
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#1684203 - 04/12/06 05:57 PM
Re: So, I finally gave in and bought a...
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J.J. Blair
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Originally posted by Chuck Zwicky:
...because of the ribbon's rectangular capsule the response is less peaky or 'zingy' than a round diaphragm mic.
As well, I'm not sure the shape matters as much as the fact that on a ribbon, you have two edges which never move. You simply have a piece of corrogated foil which essentially vibrates sympathetically with the compression and rarefaction of the sound waves. On the other hand, a moving coil has a diaphragm that is not tethered to any stationary position and moves entirely with the compression and rarefaction. I think the physical differences in the mechanism play a bigger role than the geometric shapes, IMO.
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Friends don't let friends act like rockstars.
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#1684204 - 04/13/06 09:27 PM
Re: So, I finally gave in and bought a...
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audiofreek
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Try turning the mic off axis,this a ribbon trick that achieves a beautifull top end.Also 180 degree turn yeilds a toppier result on the Royer,I surprised any lit. you recieved with this mic doesn't disclose this.Also watch out for proximity effect on any figure of 8 mic,especially ribbons when you are using them on axis,I would keep it back a few inches at least.You can adjust the distace/Bass to your taste.
A word of caution.If your room sound sucks,your going to have to invest some acoustic treatment( see Ethans' forum),because ribbon mics need a decent room.
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#1684205 - 04/14/06 12:12 AM
Re: So, I finally gave in and bought a...
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J.J. Blair
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I don;t know about the Royer, but unless the grill or the housing is designed differently, like on the AEA R84 which gives less low end on the backside, there is no reason that one side should sound brighter than the other. I'll have to ask about this, but considering that it is using a single ribbon, I fail to understand how one side could be brighter than the other side.
Also, moving mics off axis generally loses high freqs first. Since ribbons have almost absolute 90˚ off axis rejection, I'm trying to understand how off axis placement will give you better high end response.
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#1684206 - 04/14/06 05:49 PM
Re: So, I finally gave in and bought a...
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Mike P
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Hey J.J. -
The backside is indeed brighter due to the design. From the Royer Website:
The reason for the different response on the two sides of the mic is our Offset Ribbon design (patent pending), found only on our R-series ribbon mics. This design positions the ribbon element slightly forward of the center of the mic and enables the R-121 and R-122 to handle louder sound sources than conventional ribbon mics. The back side sonic difference was actually a happy accident - it was pointed out to us by an engineer friend. Being offset, the ribbon element is in a different position relative to the chamber of the microphone. When the mic is turned around, the difference in the ribbon position creates an acoustical dissimilarity that is quite useful. Sound sources that are further than three feet from the R-121 will record exactly the same on the back side as on the front side.
I've heard this phenomenon described at 90% Ribbon, 10% condenser, and I'd say that sounds about right.
I apologize for not posting samples just yet but this week has proven to be far more hectic that I had anticipated. I do have the mic placed where I'm getting a great sound from both the Marshall and Boogie rig and it's just a matter of tweaking the amp EQ and I'm set. Hopefully, I'll have something up before the end of the weekend.
FWIW, I'm using the front-side, not the backside.
Mike
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