#1684152 - 03/19/06 07:43 PM
bass mic shootout
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J.J. Blair
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Registered: 07/22/05
Posts: 326
Loc: Hollywood, CA
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I decided to do the bass mic shootout that I’ve been intending on doing for quite some time. I went with two different bass sounds, and here’s how it worked:
I played a 1960’s Ampeg AUB-1 fretless with flatwounds, and my 1968 Gibson Thunderbird II with Rotosound 66s direct through my Inward Connections Vac Rac pre, through my Apogee AD16X at 88.2 kHz. I rebroadcast the signal through a Jensen transformer bassed DI into a ‘60s Ampeg B15 for the Ampeg bass, and a ‘60s Selmer Treble and Bass 50 into an Ampeg SVT 8X10 cabinet for the Thunderbird.
For the B15, all mics were put a couple inches outside the speaker pointed about an inch below the speaker diaphragm. The SVT cab had the mics right against the grill cloth, pointed at where the diaphragm edge meets the cone. I used aVac Rac mic pre straight into the Apogee. Everything was recorded at about –6dB and then all the files were gain adjusted to peak at -.5 dB.
The mics used were :
AKG D12 and C414-BULS-II (w/ -10dB pad), Sennheiser MD421-II, MD409-U3 and e609 black, Manley/Langevin CR3A (w/ -10dB pad), Shure SM57, EV RE-27, Audio Technica ATM-25, Neumann U87, Soundelux iFet7 retrofitted w/ Neumann K47 capsule.
Here’s the files, with my apologies to Willy Weeks and John Entwistle:
http://homepage.mac.com/jjblair/.cv/jjblair/Sites/.Public/B15_test.aif-zip.zip
http://homepage.mac.com/jjblair/.cv/jjblair/Sites/.Public/SVT_test.aif-zip.zip
Here’s the suspects:
the basses:
And if you don’t want the answers ahead of time, don’t look at this until you’ve listened:
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#1684153 - 03/20/06 12:58 PM
Re: bass mic shootout
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PookyNMR
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Registered: 01/01/04
Posts: 43
Loc: Edmonton, AB, Canada
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From the SVT rig:
Preferences: CR3A, iFet7, MD409, ATM25
Dislikes: D12, SM57, 414,
OK: e609, 421, RE27, U87
From the B15 rig:
Preferences: MD409, iFet7, CR3A, 414
Dislikes: RE27, SM57, D12, ATM25, RE27
OK: U87, 421, e609
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Nathan Rousu
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#1684154 - 03/20/06 03:42 PM
Re: bass mic shootout
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J.J. Blair
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Posts: 326
Loc: Hollywood, CA
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Yeah, I oddly didn't care for the D12, which so many people are fond of for that situation. I tried both my D12s with the same result, so it wasn't just that mic. Maybe it needs to be further off the speaker? I dunno. I'm a MD409 guy, personally. I'm liking the iFet7 that I just got, too.
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#1684155 - 03/20/06 05:41 PM
Re: bass mic shootout
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Mike P
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Registered: 02/02/06
Posts: 27
Loc: Hollywood, CA
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Hey J.J. -
Great job! Here are my first impression notes on the SVT, FWIW:
1 Me likey
2 too much mid, not enough bottom
3 scooped mid, kinda cool
4 Pretty cool, present, not too much bottom
5 My favorite. Nice mid punch
6 scooped, similar to 3
7 similar to 6
8 mid rangey, 70's
9 Not enough bottom, kinda honkey
10 different mid, cleaner
11 muffled, no punch
The MD409 was my favorite, with the Langevin a clear second. I could definitely make something happen with mics 1-7, but I'd probably pass on using any of the 8-12 mics. At least I know I don't have to rush out to buy an U87 or an old 414 for bass tracks!
In addition, this is a very timely shootout for me because I'm in the process of tracking 30 of my catalog songs for Film/TV use. My drums and vocals are all dialed in and ready to go, and I finally got my guitar sound to translate (After trying everything from an AT4040 & 4050, MXL V67G & V6, SM57/421 combo, I took a chance on a Sennheiser e906 and I couldn't be happier with the way it's capturing my guitar tone). So now, off to bass!
My situation is definitely different because I'm using a Randall Iso cab (loaded with a 500 Eminence Kappa speaker) as opposed to an 8x10 cab in a room. So far, I've tried the 421 & the AT4040, with decent results. Nothing horrible, nothing amazing. Tomorrow, I'm going to try the e906 and I'm hoping it translates similarly to the 409.
Thanks again for the info! It's really helpful.
Mike
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#1684156 - 03/21/06 04:16 PM
Re: bass mic shootout
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PookyNMR
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Registered: 01/01/04
Posts: 43
Loc: Edmonton, AB, Canada
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Originally posted by J.J. Blair:
Yeah, I oddly didn't care for the D12, which so many people are fond of for that situation. I tried both my D12s with the same result, so it wasn't just that mic. Maybe it needs to be further off the speaker? I dunno. I'm a MD409 guy, personally. I'm liking the iFet7 that I just got, too.
I was quite impressed with the CR3A. Oh Lord, I feel the money leaving my wallet....
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Nathan Rousu
HV Studio
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#1684157 - 03/21/06 11:46 PM
Re: bass mic shootout
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J.J. Blair
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Posts: 326
Loc: Hollywood, CA
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Nathan, well back in the day, I got those CR3As for $400 each. I've got four of them for less than the price of a U87. The new version, the CR2001, is a little pricier. Same guts with a different and sturdier body. But I always tell people to grab CR3As if they ever see them on eBay or whatever. They literally are great on EVERYTHING.
As far as the D12 goes, it's still my favorite kick mic. And that's what they'll get used for on every session.
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#1684158 - 03/23/06 11:00 AM
Re: bass mic shootout
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getz76
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Registered: 05/30/03
Posts: 6540
Loc: Hoboken, NJ
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Thanks for sharing this. I found it very interesting.
I usually fall back on my ElectroVoice PL-20. I'm always willing to experiment, though.
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#1684159 - 03/23/06 11:02 AM
Re: bass mic shootout
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Sean Ingoldsby
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Registered: 03/23/06
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Loc: Ojai, CA
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Thanks for doing that shootout JJ, it confirms some of my of what I thought I knew already;
I don't like the nasally sound of the D12. I love the richness of the 409.
My favs are:
on SVT 409, Ifet and CR3a, I like them all, for different reasons.
on the B15 I like the 409, CR3A and 421.
thanks again! Sean
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#1684160 - 03/23/06 12:58 PM
Re: bass mic shootout
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J.J. Blair
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Registered: 07/22/05
Posts: 326
Loc: Hollywood, CA
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BTW, for you guys that like the 409, I've been saying this over and over: 409 are the shit on guitar amps. Too bad Sennheiser says they can't / won't make them anymore. Mike Plas is going to bring his e906 over, though and maybe we'll shoot those out for you.
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#1684161 - 03/23/06 01:04 PM
Re: bass mic shootout
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getz76
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Funny, I was going to mention... my go-to mic on guitar amps is the MD421-II... placement and rolloff settings vary. Usually sounds good to me, but I'm a hack. 
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#1684162 - 03/23/06 02:00 PM
Re: bass mic shootout
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PookyNMR
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Registered: 01/01/04
Posts: 43
Loc: Edmonton, AB, Canada
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Originally posted by J.J. Blair:
Nathan, well back in the day, I got those CR3As for $400 each. I've got four of them for less than the price of a U87. The new version, the CR2001, is a little pricier. Same guts with a different and sturdier body. But I always tell people to grab CR3As if they ever see them on eBay or whatever. They literally are great on EVERYTHING.
So the body shape on the new ones is the same as well, just has more beef? (I'm thinking along the lines of whether or not the 2 models are sonically identical.)
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Nathan Rousu
HV Studio
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#1684164 - 03/23/06 02:16 PM
Re: bass mic shootout
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J.J. Blair
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Posts: 326
Loc: Hollywood, CA
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Originally posted by getz76: Funny, I was going to mention... my go-to mic on guitar amps is the MD421-II... placement and rolloff settings vary. Usually sounds good to me, but I'm a hack.
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#1684165 - 03/27/06 06:45 PM
Re: bass mic shootout
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getz76
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J.J. Blair,
A couple of requests from some of the Low Down Lowdown folks regarding samples of the Tech 21 NYC SansAmp Bass Driver DI and this shootout have inspired me to do something.
What is that something?
Great question! Glad you asked.
The plan is as follows:
In the end, we will end up with the following audio for comparison:
1) Clean DI (Countryman Type 85)
2) Effected DI (SansAmp BDDI)
3) Microphone
a) EV PL-20
b) Sennheiser MD421mkII
c) Shure SM57
d) CAD e100
I may also reamp a couple of different settings of the SansAmp BDDI.
Same idea as this thread in a different flavor.
Hopefully I will get this done in the next month. I will either bump this thread or start a new one.
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#1684166 - 03/27/06 11:16 PM
Re: bass mic shootout
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J.J. Blair
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Registered: 07/22/05
Posts: 326
Loc: Hollywood, CA
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Getz, I look forward to it!
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#1684167 - 03/28/06 12:46 AM
Re: bass mic shootout
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wwittman
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Registered: 12/07/01
Posts: 120
Loc: peekskill, NY, USA
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Jesus was that supposed to be 5:15???
John must be spinning in his grave; and it's not from residual cocaine in his bloodstream. (and i say that with LOVE, trust me)
I listened blind and then decoded in order, so...
anyway:
on the B-15 (wee JJ weeks):
Re27 full
U87 tubby, lows stick out
Sm57 clicky, lackluster
Md421 clicky, flat
Md409 smaller
Ifet47 full but smoothed out
E609 punchy, bottom light
D12 boomy, middly
Atm25 full but smaller than re27
Cr3a full
C414 round, but full
on the SVT (JJ eau de cologning):
Cr3a full
D12 tubby,
E609 small but focused
Ifet47 tubby
Md409 full bottom not much attack
421 cloudy
RE27 full but bottom seems disconnected
SM57 boomy, middly, rounds off distortion too much
U87 dull, lackluster
ATm25 clean but a bit tame
C414 dark but full ranged
so in both cases I'd lean to the RE27 which is oddly consistent with my use of an RE20 or SM7 (maybe I just LIKE that sound and am used to it)
I really liked the AT on the B-15 but much less on the SVT
the 609 sounds acceptable but not stellar to me in BOTH cases.
and in both cases the 414 sounds high class but perhaps too dark for my tastes.. i COULD however happily add top at the amp as I liked it's overall character and fullness.
I should add that you ARE using weird ass bass guitars (by most standards) and reamping to boot.
But still...
did you at LEAST use a 1.14mm tortex plectrum for the Entwistle clip?
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#1684168 - 03/28/06 10:27 AM
Re: bass mic shootout
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J.J. Blair
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Loc: Hollywood, CA
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Comedy! I'll get a real bass player next time. Promise.
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#1684169 - 03/28/06 03:20 PM
Re: bass mic shootout
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wwittman
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Registered: 12/07/01
Posts: 120
Loc: peekskill, NY, USA
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Well I suppose if I KNEW it was (sort of)(almost)(approaching) 5:15....
my wife says that all the time (in an annoyed tone)
First she says: "hey, who does that guy look like?"
and then when I look and say "he looks really NOTHING like Winston Churchill"
she replies "well then how did you KNOW that's who I MEANT?!! hhhmmph."
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