#1684065 - 01/22/06 11:05 PM
should you notice the production?
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J.J. Blair
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I was sitting with a group of people the other night, and a couple of them had just been to see Jon Brion do his show. I got into my standard rap about how I think he's the most brilliant musician, but I don't care for him as a producer, because he makes the song too much about his production, etc. I was sitting next to Don Was and asked him for his thought on that and he said the most interesting thing. To paraphrase:
"If I'm reading a review of a record I did, I don't like them noticing the production. I like reviews that say, 'the singer's voice sounded the best it's ever sounded' or about the quality of the songs."
Now, I know some of us actually like to listen to the production, etc, like Beatles records. I don't think Don Was was trying to make a Steve Albini statement, that the producer shouldn't have any impact, but I was encouraged by his attitude.
Any thoughts from you guys?
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#1684066 - 01/23/06 08:45 AM
Re: should you notice the production?
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miroslav
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Depends on the song.
Some layout with lots of heart and soul...
...and there are those you have to really beat on to get them to groove.
I can easily let myself go with production...so I usually restrain myself until the song hits a dead end...and then anything goes towards getting it back up and running.
On my current project...I'm trying to limit heavier production to only 1/3 of the cuts...so that there's some contrast when the album is listened to as a whole.
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miroslav - miroslavmusic.com"Just because it happened to you, it doesn't mean it's important."
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#1684067 - 01/23/06 08:50 AM
Re: should you notice the production?
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Bill@Welcome Home Studios
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In writing there is a concept about 'willful suspension of disbelief'. The idea is that the reader ('listener', in our cases...) becomes immersed in the story. ANYTHING that pulls him out of that immersion... an extra cute turn of phrase, or anything else untoward... no matter how 'neat'.... is the wrong thing to do. Because at that moment, the reader is no longer thinking about the story, he is thinking about what has been written, or how it was written.
Same thing in audio recording... if the production intrudes into the thoughts of the listener, we have failed.
So the answer is not that a producer should have no impact, it is that the good producer makes the entire project sound better, without ever going too far. In a way I guess that it is similar to dressing a hollywood starlet of the 'red carpet'.
Side issue: In live audio, nobody notices good sound, they only notice bad sound.
Bill
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#1684068 - 01/23/06 10:57 AM
Re: should you notice the production?
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J.J. Blair
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Bill, I just noticed your Kinky Friedman T shirt! Why the hell not!
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#1684069 - 01/23/06 11:31 AM
Re: should you notice the production?
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Bill@Welcome Home Studios
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Originally posted by J.J. Blair:
Bill, I just noticed your Kinky Friedman T shirt! Why the hell not!
Yeah, that shot might be from the same evening we were hangin' in the street....
Bill
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#1684070 - 01/23/06 01:18 PM
Re: should you notice the production?
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PookyNMR
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JJ, I agree with the Don Was sentiment. The producer should be there to make the production highlight the best of the band and only interject where there is an obvious deficiency.
Productions that are obviously the producer bore me. Shania Twain <--> Def Leppard, who can tell the difference? It all sounds more like Mutt Lange to me than the individual artists. I'm sure that Mutt is a great guy and one heck of a producer, but I'm bored of his 'one sound' (the Zoolander of producers??) and would like to hear his artists speak for a change.
Pax.
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#1684071 - 01/23/06 01:27 PM
Re: should you notice the production?
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miroslav
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Besides...it's all subjective anyway.
One person might think..."Wow, that was some neat stuff in that tune!"...and another would say, "They killed the song with all that neat stuff."
You have to go with your gut...and not worry about trying to live up to someone's expectations...other then the artits you may be working with.
If everyone walks out of the studio happy...then it was all good! 
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miroslav - miroslavmusic.com"Just because it happened to you, it doesn't mean it's important."
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#1684074 - 01/23/06 09:08 PM
Re: should you notice the production?
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Bill@Welcome Home Studios
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Originally posted by miroslav:
Yeah...but the average (majority) listener...really doesn't spend even 2 seconds analyzing "the production" of any song.
They just listen to the whole thing.
And yes, there have been Phil Spectors, etc.... but the only reason that the public is even aware of them is because we tell them.
I remember when an artist would try to tie into a producer for sales value.... but the producer was usually someone like Todd Runtgren, who had value as a recording artist.
I also remember when David Crosby "produced" Joni Mitchells first release..... he was there in name only, so that Joni could do what she wanted to do and not have her record fucked around with by a label-assigned producer.
Mutt was mentioned and I happen to not be able to specifically 'hear' his work... like, in a blind listening test I'd not be able to pick out his work against any other meticulous producer. And I happen to like his work with Leopard and Twain, though I hate the fact that he has taken those same elements of perfection ( pro tools and time code)and shoved them into the live show, taking all of the life out of it.
In terms of knowing a producers sound: whos record is it, anyway? Obviously in the case of a Mutt or Phil Spector, the artist is so secondary as to almost be superfluous. I don't see so much in Lynne, because he is mostly still trying to copy the Beatles. Maybe nobody does it better, but that is still what he is doing. (shrug...) so? If I'm releasing a record of my music, I want you to be thinking of me and my music, not anything else. That is simply good business. Tieing your recording into a bigger name than your own isn't bad business either, ...
And I didn't say anything about being noble, but in my opinion the producer should be bringing the vision of the artist to the ear of the listener. In my opinion anyone who does this is a BETTER producer than anyone who can't or doesn't. The producers that I admire tend to be engineers, or come from a live sound background. And they tend to do what they do without a bunch of hoopla and they tend to be invisible. But that is only my opinion.
Don't forget that the world of fiction is littered with stylistic writers who are quite popular. James Elroy is my current favorite, but Dashell Hammett, Raymond Chandler,and others write in a style that constantly has the reader thinking about the phrasology. But other writers like Jack Higgens, Robert Crais, Martin Cruz Smith or Robert Ludlum will drag you through hundreds of pages without you realizing that you have been sitting there that long reading, as you are totally drawn into their stories.
That is my goal. Make great music that brings the visiomn of the artist to the ear of the listener. Not to use certain devices often enough that I become associated with their usage and my recordings become identifiable simply by that metric.
I know that this is an old school attitude and that modern music is all about the ego and LOOK AT ME ME ME!!!! But that is not what I was taught, and this is just possibly another reason that I have backed away from the industry in the past year, having only done a handful of projects since I left the studio and went into semi-retirement.
Bill
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#1684075 - 01/24/06 12:43 AM
Re: should you notice the production?
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miroslav
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I hear what your saying...
My own situation is such that a great deal of my time in the studio is spent working on my own projects.
So I never really think in terms of "musician", “songwriter”, “engineer”, “producer”...
...it's all a blur...
…and regardless of which hat(s) I'm wearing at any given moment...
...it's always about the song, for me.
And if that requires some "production"...that’s part of it.
For a different perspective...this weekend, at my studio, I'm going to basically just engineer for a quick 4-5 song demo.
I will make few, if any, comments about how it should sound or be arranged...though I may participate if the moment calls for it or if I'm asked.
These people are not studio vets...so I may have to do a little navigation just to get them heading in whatever direction they want to go.
I can pull back and just drive the bus when needed...or get right into it and control all aspects of the project.
Again...it's always about the song, for me...so whatever is required...that's OK...as long as it serves the music.
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miroslav - miroslavmusic.com"Just because it happened to you, it doesn't mean it's important."
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#1684076 - 01/24/06 06:03 AM
Re: should you notice the production?
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Bill@Welcome Home Studios
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" I never really think in terms of "musician", “songwriter”, “engineer”, “producer”..."
I do for a very simple reason... how many jobs are you supposed to DO for your ten cents an hour?
Like you, I did a lot of people who "are not studio vets..." and I spent my time playing or replaying or rewriting parts, gently trying to lead the band away from big mistakes, producing, singing, etc etc. And it used to piss me off that, no matter what I did, they werte still free to make stupid mistakes in spite of my best recommendations, and yet when the product hit the street, they always would blame it on the studio (because of course, the studio ALWAYS hoses the artits, right? Everyone knows that.)
And I must have wasted YEARS of my life listening to every opinion from every band member, boy/girlfriend, nephew, dog walker and other hand-holders that the acts saw fit to drag along to sessions.
So I developed a simple formula. You have a producer. He speaks fort the band. If you don't have a producer, I'M the producer. You have an opinion about what you want to hear. You have ONE opinion, one person who you trust to make the right decision and who speaks for the entire band, not 4, 10, or 20 people.
Why? Because it is MY LIFE that you are wasting, and there isn't enough money in the world to recompense me for that lost time as you guys argue about things that should have been settled before you came in my door, or endlessly discuss the number of echo repeats you each think should be on the kick drum and why. Thats just lame, but it happens all the time.
You talk about serving the music, and that is a noble goal, and I hope that we all feel the same way.... but if a band wants me to treat their music in that fashion, then they should have done so, also. They should have their ducks in a row when they get here and approach the work in a professional manner.
At some point I get back to the 'if I need to do all of this work to your half-assed presentation to make it listenable, what do I need YOU for?' I have plenty of my own songs that need work.
This is probably a typical problem for musician/recordists like us... it is easy to get caught up in the music and try to make it right. But eventually I came to realise that I should not care more than the artist. And by the same token, as I take pride in my work, I won't work with artists who care less than I do.
Bill
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#1684077 - 01/24/06 11:05 AM
Re: should you notice the production?
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miroslav
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Preach on brother Bill...can I get a witness?!
You are right about most of it.
But...I think you misunderstood my comment about "I never really think in terms of "musician", “songwriter”, “engineer”, “producer”..."
That was describing how I feel when I am working on MY projects! 
I get so wrapped up in it all...that there are few lines of distinction...and all of it goes toward serving "the song".
That's why I also mentioned that this weekend, where I'll actually be JUST the engineer...and I won't bother with other issues...except to toss out a solicited comment now and again.
And getting back to the producers stamping their “sound” on albums…
Some of the names you mentioned…again, how many of their big “produced” albums would have been as good…had the producer remained transparent?
I don’t have any specific one to mention…but what I’m getting at is that it’s OK to NOT like the production on a particular album…but I can’t agree that producers should never leave any “sign”…
…which is what some of the comments in this tread suggest.
You have to take it on an album-by-album (or song-by-song) basis…and if the production works…how can anyone be sure it would have been better…if it was done a different way…?
I think there IS a certain amount of artistic talent required in producing…and whatever brush strokes the producer uses…will be there.
You can’t paint without using any pigment…can you?
Now…I agree that if they always use “red”…to paint everything…it will get played out quick.
But, the artists bring their colors, and they do their part…and so the producer may add just a few strokes here and there, or he/she may be bold and really add some obvious elements.
Same for the engineer.
If the entire session/production team is happy with the final result…who cares how it came about?
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miroslav - miroslavmusic.com"Just because it happened to you, it doesn't mean it's important."
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#1684078 - 01/26/06 11:33 AM
Re: should you notice the production?
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Kendrix
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Lots of good comments here that I agree with.
Mainly that "it depends".
This seems to relate to the debate about whether the objective is to capture a sonic event OR to create one artificially.
Its a matter or style and philosophy.
With all due respect to Don Was... IMHO there is no one correct answer to this question that applies to all situations.
I'd never diss the groundbreaking Beatles and Pink Floyd production values. How about Spiritualized, How about Axis bold as love ( just take the dynamic panning for instance)
You certainly cant say they are transparent/organic productions.
OTOH James Taylor or Diane Krall should be captured as is - with no production overlays whatsoever.
It's all good- when its good.
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#1684079 - 01/26/06 12:05 PM
Re: should you notice the production?
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Bill@Welcome Home Studios
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Originally posted by Kendrix:
I'd never diss the groundbreaking Beatles and Pink Floyd production values. How about Spiritualized, How about Axis bold as love ( just take the dynamic panning for instance)
You certainly cant say they are transparent/organic productions.
Bill
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#1684080 - 01/26/06 12:49 PM
Re: should you notice the production?
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miroslav
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Originally posted by Bill@Welcome Home Studios:
When the average guy listens to Axis:Bold As Love he does not think about the producer. 
To 90% of the audience...it's either just good or bad music.
Now...a follow-up question/analysis might be to check on those times when the average listener thinks it WAS bad music...and consider if that correlates to the album being "over-produced"…or not...???
I actually believe that most of the current stuff is bordering on "over-produced" as the norm...and that's exactly the stuff that is selling big...the stuff that gets attention...
....where the more "natural-as-it-falls" material appeals to the "outer fringes" with more discriminate (“picky”?) taste buds.
So...what's it all mean when you are in the studio pondering production ideas/directions...???
In the "Axis" example...one person may be totally immersed in all that left/right panning....while another will notice it as a production effect.
So...who's right/wrong?
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miroslav - miroslavmusic.com"Just because it happened to you, it doesn't mean it's important."
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#1684081 - 01/28/06 01:40 PM
Re: should you notice the production?
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Kendrix
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Originally posted by miroslav:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Bill@Welcome
So...what's it all mean when you are in the studio pondering production ideas/directions...???
In the "Axis" example...one person may be totally immersed in all that left/right panning....while another will notice it as a production effect.
So...who's right/wrong?
Hell when I listen to James Taylor I marvel at the clarity and space. I wonder what mic as used. Yet these are about as transparent a production as can be imagined.
I did this when I was 8 years old.
Where do you draw the line between average listener and the sonic addicts that focus on these things. Cant be done.
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#1684082 - 01/28/06 01:41 PM
Re: should you notice the production?
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Kendrix
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Originally posted by miroslav:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Bill@Welcome
So...what's it all mean when you are in the studio pondering production ideas/directions...???
In the "Axis" example...one person may be totally immersed in all that left/right panning....while another will notice it as a production effect.
So...who's right/wrong?
Hell when I listen to James Taylor I marvel at the clarity and space. I wonder what mic was used. Yet this is about as transparent a production as can be imagined.
I did this when I was 8 years old.
Where do you draw the line between average listener and the sonic addicts that focus on these things. Cant be done.
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#1684083 - 02/03/06 01:05 AM
Re: should you notice the production?
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wwittman
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Some guys direct movies that are all about the actors and the script (like My Dinner With Andre), and some guys make movies with cgi up the bum and it's all about how the MOVIE is the story (like Star Wars), or perhaps it's even ALL cgi animation (like the Incredibles)
I like all three if they're GOOD.
and I like Star Wars records sometimes (like Pyromania) as much as I like audio verite records.
I don't mind noticing Mutt, for example, on his records because he's so GOOD.
On the other hand, there are some people whose hand I do not wish to detect.
It isn't Jon Brion's heavy-handed-ness that irks me, it's how it doesn;t seem to have anything to do with the artiste (to me).
No matter who it is, he does the Rutles.
Mutt doesn't make Shania sound like Def Leppard.
he GETS that it's different.
He just makes the best damned Shania record anyone could make.
or another example comes to mind.. Pierre Marchand has a similar set of influences on his sleeve in his records with Sarah MacLachlan, but they FIT better for me than Jon Brion's.
they don't SEEM as Rutles.
but I also love RTB's records.. and he's certainly quite "visible" on his productions.
and for that matter, I doubt there'd be baroque strings on Beatles records without the heavy hand of a producer with a quite distinctive arranging style.
but I love those records.
If they had made 12 albums of documents of the unadorned Beatles in the studio I don;t personally think that would have been better.
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#1684084 - 02/03/06 08:31 AM
Re: should you notice the production?
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BrianK
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Well, Jon Brion used to be my roommate, so I know him (and the process of his productions well.) I think he does things I could never do, but typically, it's more than I would ever do.
On two occasions, I was given records to finish that he had begun. In both cases, I felt it best to strip away many of the overdubs that had been added to the tracks. This made myself and the artists much happier, bringing out the root of the song, harmonically and structurally. This is personal taste, as I prefer simple pop, where people DO notice the song being good, but they couldn't tell you why.
In most cases, producers I know work with a single artist and not a band. In these situations, I REALLY want to hear stripped down arrangements that show the power of a great song and a great voice. I think a band situation is less open, and therefore harder to produce with style.
I think the most difficult production (now that you mention him) is Mutt Lange, circa "Highway to Hell". Perfection. There could not be LESS on the tracks, but they have more appeal and timeless nature than anything out nowadays. Subtlety is harder, but more effective.
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#1684085 - 02/03/06 11:34 AM
Re: should you notice the production?
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J.J. Blair
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Kehew lives! (Just like Schenker.)
As another former Brion co-habitator, I kind of agree with Brian and especially William. I have often felt that the production decisions seemed to ignore the song, and become more for the sake of doing that thing itself, rather than because it fit the song.
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#1684086 - 02/03/06 10:14 PM
Re: should you notice the production?
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wwittman
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Yes, perhaps I'm reading into it, but i get the FEELING that he wants people to notice.. to say "what a cool mellotron.." not just 'what a great record'
we all betray our influences and ,oves.. but I think it's good to be certain they are also (at least) the ARTISTE'S influences before they end up on HIS record.
I might add "Queen" vocals to the Outfield, but not to Dar Williams.
I don't really think it's different with single artistes than with bands.
The "production" is about making the record that communicates the most... not about being EITHER a purist or an egotist.
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#1684087 - 02/03/06 10:28 PM
Re: should you notice the production?
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J.J. Blair
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William, I hate to bag on the guy, but ... it's a kind of self indulgent thing that I think gets displayed both live and in recording. It goes like this:
"Check out how clever I am."
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#1684088 - 02/04/06 09:39 PM
Re: should you notice the production?
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kjcoral
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hi,
i have bothered brian with my crazy rants and devil's advocate questions(it was beatles-related, of course) before, so i am sure he will roll his eyes to see me on this forum now, but i have to DISAGREE with most of you on this.
it's funny, cuz i have just finshed my first 'producer reel(feel free to give me advice on those too, as i welcome it!)'and i was struck by how my fingerprints are on all 8 of the songs. BUT a lot of that has to do with the fact that i always had something to do with the arrangements. and to be as objective as i can be, adding more, as i always seem to do, always improved the songs.
the person who mentioned the 'hardboiled' writers like ellroy and hammett and chandler was really on to something because i adore them like i adore phil spector and orson welles. these people did BOTH and laughed cuz sure, you KNEW they were messing with the sounds or words or camera angles but they were so good that they could sell ya the 'story' AND the window dressing both and leave you beggin' for more. this is what i aspire to. and yes, i happen to love jon brion's work. but i think you guys are missing what i like so much about his work. i hear REAL emotion in his playing and parts. we forget how parts can carry emotion sometimes as well, as we are so hung up on the singer all the time.
ok, flame away!
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#1684089 - 02/05/06 02:53 PM
Re: should you notice the production?
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wwittman
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Ultimately, I think that the NON_music-biz listener should feel as though the ideas are the artiste's.
So ideally it sounds as though Jaco is playing just what Joni hears in her head.
If it sounds LIKE the producer's ideas, or any externally applied idea, to the average listener, I think that's a failure.
But that's way different for those of us who might KNOW what a particular producer adds ; we don;t count.
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#1684090 - 02/06/06 03:28 PM
Re: should you notice the production?
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miroslav
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Originally posted by wwittman:
If it sounds LIKE the producer's ideas, or any externally applied idea, to the average listener, I think that's a failure.
...how can anyone tell who's idea anything was, unless they were at the sessions?
Sure, some producers may have a "sound stamp" that they impart on anything they work on...
...but, it is also possible that the artists KNEW that going in, and they collaborated with the producer to end up with THAT finished product.
No one on the "outside" will ever really know who made what calls during the sessions.
I'm sure some producers command a certain amount of attention, especially when working with new, young artists who may be in awe of said producer...
...but this notion that most artists are just told what their album is going to sound like, without them providing any substantial input during the sessions...
...well, if that is the case, then they deserve the finished product they get!
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#1684091 - 02/12/06 05:54 PM
Re: should you notice the production?
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wwittman
Senior Member
Registered: 12/07/01
Posts: 120
Loc: peekskill, NY, USA
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I didn't say that.
what i said is that to the average non-biz listener, the final product SHOULD sound as though it's all the artiste's ideas.
sometimes it seems CLEAR that he is only a voice or whatever...
this can happen with the artiste's approval and complicity.
that doesn't change anything.
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#1684092 - 02/13/06 01:05 AM
Re: should you notice the production?
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J.J. Blair
Senior Member
Registered: 07/22/05
Posts: 326
Loc: Hollywood, CA
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It's weird, though. You listen to those old Dionne Warwick records, and Burt Bacharach is clearly the artist and she's the singer. Same with much of the Phil Spector stuff. I'd even say the same for a lot of David Foster produced singers.
_________________________
Friends don't let friends act like rockstars.
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#1684093 - 02/15/06 05:11 AM
Re: should you notice the production?
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BrianK
Senior Member
Registered: 12/17/00
Posts: 228
Loc: Los Angeles,CA,UNITED STATES
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I like some people that have a style - as WW says. But my preference is those who do not have an audio imprint - no one would know WHO produced it. Beatles example - look at the first three albums, VERY different than the middle three, or the last three (how many did they do?)
My own records are SO varied - total electronic, totally organic, Sloppy sometimes, polished sometimes. Loud and raucous, or quiet anbd refined. I love all of it and work best within a world that stretches, IN as well as out.
_________________________
Relax and float downstream...
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#1684094 - 02/16/06 06:13 PM
Re: should you notice the production?
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Tedster
MP Hall of Fame Member
Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 5933
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Originally posted by J.J. Blair:
Now, I know some of us actually like to listen to the production, etc, like Beatles records. I don't think Don Was was trying to make a Steve Albini statement, that the producer shouldn't have any impact, but I was encouraged by his attitude.
By the same token, in some cases it has enhanced it.
I think it boils down to what you're trying to highlight, and for what purpose you're trying to highlight that given element. If you're trying to highlight the singer, then if you're losing the impact of the performance in lush production, you need to back off...in varying degrees. But, as you pointed out, sometimes the production itself can be the focal point. Ultimately, I'd say, let the song itself dictate what is appropriate.
_________________________
"Cisco Kid, was a friend of mine...(WAH WAH WAH WAHHH!)"
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