#1683911 - 10/05/05 12:07 AM
moved: Who's the ****ing producer?
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J.J. Blair
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Registered: 07/22/05
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(I somehow accidentally posted this in the bass forum! Oops. I've moved it here where it was supposed to be.)
I don't know if I've said it, but I'm a believer in making a production decision and moving on. Brian had a thread about this a while back. One of the things I don't like about ProTools is the ability to have limitless tracks and endless options. In theory, endless options would be a good thing, but when you give a creative person too many options, you are generally giving them enough rope with which to hang themselves. I don't know how many times I've seen somebody take something that sounds like Back In Black and turn it into Pet Sounds and ruin it.
Anyway, this beast has risen his head again. I'm tracking an artist tomorrow to be mixed by another engineer of some hit making repute, and he requested that I track a clean DI guitar in addition to whatever guitars I track, obviously so he can either re-amp it or use amp farm. Now, as the producer, isn't it MY job to determine what the guitar sounds are? I have a serious problem with this. Am I just being territorial or is somebody actually stepping on my dick by redoing my guitar sounds for a hard rock track? If he is going to determine the guitar sounds, why doesn't HE track the fucking song? I find this aggravating. Any thoughts?
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Friends don't let friends act like rockstars.
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#1683912 - 10/05/05 01:17 AM
Re: moved: Who's the ****ing producer?
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robmix
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F*ck that, tell 'em you don't have a DI. Better yet, tell him you won't tell him how to mix as long as he doesn't tell you how to produce. . .
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#1683913 - 10/05/05 09:19 AM
Re: moved: Who's the ****ing producer?
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Kendrix
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Since he wants to produce perhaps you should do the guitar playing and the guitarist can just practice his poses for the live show.
On the serious side - Who is paying the engineer?
Who is paying you? To do what? Might there be a future price to pay if you piss off the engineer?
Depending on the answers you may want to proceed differently.
OTOH what the fuck do I know?
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#1683914 - 10/06/05 04:07 AM
Re: moved: Who's the ****ing producer?
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BrianK
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My newest approach is to:
Go along with what they want, then talk about OTHER sessions and people; complaining how they never made decisions, can't limit their track use, "all good records never needed that nonsense", cite examples of people we all hate that can't make decisions, etc.
You are working with them, but at some point they have to agree with you, then see what they are doing is the same...
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Relax and float downstream...
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#1683915 - 10/06/05 11:44 AM
Re: moved: Who's the ****ing producer?
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Chris Finster
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I suuppose i see both points of view here.
On your side of the coin, your assembling a set of (real) tones that will impart your sonic imprint onto the album.
And thats certainly something important to you as an engineer.
Especially seeing as how its for a major ( i assume ).
I mean, if it were me? I wouldnt want anyone screwing with my hard earned guit tones.
Nowm on his side of the coin?
I personally always route off a split to have a di clean track available. Never know when itll be nice for layering, remixing, quick mood changes, whatever.
And its not that much differnt than say Ross putting up 3 bass rigs and 10 mics.
Its all gonna sound different, but at least he has the tone options when mix time comes.
Who's right and whos wrong.
neither.
You simply both have requirements that dont meet in the middle.
-Finster
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#1683916 - 10/06/05 03:10 PM
Re: moved: Who's the ****ing producer?
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RicBassGuy
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This is by no means an authoritive answer, but from what I've read there are legit reasons for wanting a DI track in addition to a processed track.
At a basic level, it is a CYA effort in case the processed track is unusable. Much easier to go back to the DI than to ask the artist to re-record, no?
Ok, so you know what you're doing and you're not going to do something weird like put so much reverb on the track that it can't be placed anywhere in the mix but somewhere "way back there". You're going to cut some great tracks. They're going to sound great by themselves. Still, they may not mix well, right? How do you adjust the flange from a track so it doesn't clash with the chorus on another track? Can you shave off a little distortion to free up a little more sonic space? Hard to do if they're already printed in the tracks.
I guess what I'm getting at is comparable to live music, where "bedroom" tone sounds great when you're home alone but sounds like crap on stage with the rest of the band. It just doesn't mix well.
Or the answer may be simpler still: some people like to mix a little clean DI with the processed track.
As the producer you should have the right to make any decisions during the mixing. You should be there when he's mixing. If he's going to drastically change something (like reamping a DI to replace your processed track), he should at least let you A/B the tracks to decide for yourself which sounds better in the mix.
Or, put another way, as the producer can you really know how much processing (distortion, for example) to apply during tracking that will make for the best mix later on? I mean, that'd be great, because then mixers would just have to pan and adjust levels and their life would be so much easier. Heck, if you could track the levels, too, he'd just have to pan. But is that realistic?
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#1683917 - 10/07/05 02:19 AM
Re: moved: Who's the ****ing producer?
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robmix
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To me, the mixer dude is stepping on your toes. As the producer and engineer it's your gig to come up with the guitar sounds. You and the guitar player are setting the overall tone and vibe of the record - not waiting for some mix dude to find it later on. Would you ask Eddie Van Halen to track an extra DI in case you want to reamp later ? How about Slash, Jimmy Page, etc. They'd all tell you to go F*ck yourself. For most guitar players the relationship between the guitar, the amp, and their fingers defines the sound. And that sound can often define the sound of the whole band. Do you want to risk some mixer screwing that up ? Not to mention, you're probably going to be able to spend a lot more time getting guitar sounds than Mr. Mixer.
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#1683918 - 10/07/05 04:35 AM
Re: moved: Who's the ****ing producer?
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Bill@Welcome Home Studios
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Originally posted by J.J. Blair:
.... Now, as the producer, isn't it MY job to determine what the guitar sounds are? ....
Bill
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"...it's easier than hitting the kids, and almost as much fun..."
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#1683919 - 10/07/05 05:32 AM
Re: moved: Who's the ****ing producer?
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BrianK
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DECISIONS. People are SO AFRAID to commit to anything nowadays. I'm relieved to NOT be part of that world.
This week we're doing mixes for a band - we'll do a ref. mix and everyone agrees it's good. I say "Do you guys want a vocal-up, or bass-down, or anything?" "No" they said, "it sounds fine."
Thank God...
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Relax and float downstream...
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#1683920 - 10/07/05 01:03 PM
Re: moved: Who's the ****ing producer?
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J.J. Blair
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What this is about is the guys mixed the new System of a Down record, and the artist wants his shit to sound like that. Why is he even listening to that band? That's the mystery to me.
The situation seems to be that the mixer is unfamiliar with me and I with him, so these are 'just in case your guitar sounds suck' tracks, I think. I'm going to e-mail the guy before I track the final guitars and assue him that he doesn't need DI and my guitar sounds don't suck. In fact, Page Hamilton from Helmet told me, "That's the first time I've been in the control room and it sounded like what my amp sounds like in the live room." And I didn't use a DI either!
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Friends don't let friends act like rockstars.
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#1683921 - 10/07/05 01:48 PM
Re: moved: Who's the ****ing producer?
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Tedster
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Originally posted by BrianK:
DECISIONS. People are SO AFRAID to commit to anything nowadays. I'm relieved to NOT be part of that world.
I think what he's after is the ol'
Track:
1. Light rock mix
2. Dance mix
3. Easy mix
4. Blow your face out mix
5. Lawrence Welk polka mix
6. Buddhist Temple monks chanting mix
etc. etc. Just compiling different shit in different ways to make pablum for the masses...(whiny geek voice) "Oh, I don't like anything TOO heavy"..(shoves "easy mix" into face)
God, I hate it. I've always hated overproduction.
I don't know what to say.
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#1683922 - 10/11/05 12:38 PM
Re: moved: Who's the ****ing producer?
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tripit
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Serious breech of producer to mixer protocol. I'd tell him that you don't have a DI track because you don't use amp plugs. I'd also say, "excuse me, I wasn't aware that you were producing this record" or "If my guitar sound sucks, it's because I want it that way"
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What the hell is that thing?
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#1683923 - 10/13/05 11:02 AM
Re: moved: Who's the ****ing producer?
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C J Hoffman
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Just tell the guy politely that you won't need to track clean guitar, because you already know what sound you are going for on the guitar track. And just and leave it at that. Or better yet, say nothing and just send the tracks. No need to react or become offended. Take the high road.
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#1683924 - 10/13/05 04:21 PM
Re: moved: Who's the ****ing producer?
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BrianK
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Or MY classic reply:
"The Beatles, Stones, Bowie, The Who, Steely Dan, Rush, Bob Marley, Mama's and the Papa's, Abba, Thin Lizzy, Zappa, Ramones, the Doors and Nirvana never needed a DI guitar track. Why do YOU?"
I use this reply for all manner of terrible modern studio practices.
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Relax and float downstream...
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#1683925 - 10/13/05 04:50 PM
Re: moved: Who's the ****ing producer?
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miroslav
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In my own little world of recording...I've never had the "pleasure" (or displeasure)...of being JUST the tracking engineer...or "JUST" the mixing engineer...etc…
So...when I'm working on something...I have pretty vest interest in the whole god damn thing...from beginning to end!!!
I don't what I would tell the mixing engineer if I was in your shoes...
..."fuck off" comes to mind...
...but discretion being the better part...yada, yada, yada...
...I would probably just tell him to focus on doing his part (mixing) and let me do my part.
Of course...if the "artist" is already jaded by who's going to mix his shit...
...you may have a tough sell. 
But then...if you are the producer...won't you be telling the mixing engineer how YOU want the mix to sound...???
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miroslav - miroslavmusic.com"Just because it happened to you, it doesn't mean it's important."
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#1683926 - 10/17/05 01:21 PM
Re: moved: Who's the ****ing producer?
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FIBES
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Tell him to get his hand out of your pants or you'll send him stems.
Nah, just send him stems.
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FIBES
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#1683927 - 10/18/05 02:21 AM
Re: moved: Who's the ****ing producer?
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robmix
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So I thought about this some more and you should record the DI for one reason - you don't want the band to complain about something in the mix and have mister mix dude blame it on your lack of cooperation. I've seen it before:
band: The chorus doesn't have enough impact
mixer: well if JJ had given me that DI track I could reamp it and get a heavier tone for the chorus, but I'm kind stuck without it.
Suddenly everything that could go wrong in the mix could land on your shoulders.
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#1683928 - 10/18/05 05:39 AM
Re: moved: Who's the ****ing producer?
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BrianK
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Nah, tell the band you don't want him messing about with "creating" new tones for the mix. They'll get that. You got sounds for them while they were present - they played TO the sound. Simple deal...
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#1683929 - 10/19/05 01:32 AM
Re: moved: Who's the ****ing producer?
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Gruupi
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I must be missing something here. The guitar player has spent his whole life learning to play and has his own sound. Isn't the producers role to capture the artist's music. The engineer should be concerned with getting the sound bieng played in the room recorded.
Have we really been reduced to finding a bunch of pretty boys playing air guitar while the record companies make backing tracks for them to jump around to. A producers role is supposed to be one of encouragement and support of the band, getting into a pissing match with the engineer seems counter productive.
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#1683930 - 10/27/05 10:44 AM
Re: moved: Who's the ****ing producer?
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ECBRules
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Why don't you just record all the tracks with a DI only and when he's like WTF? just tell him you must have misunderstood him.
LOL
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#1683931 - 10/27/05 12:31 PM
Re: moved: Who's the ****ing producer?
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Bill@Welcome Home Studios
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another thought... send him the entire package, unmixed. Include a list of what you, as the producer, expects to hear on each track.
Bill
_________________________
"...it's easier than hitting the kids, and almost as much fun..."
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#1683934 - 10/30/05 08:44 AM
Re: moved: Who's the ****ing producer?
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Alaskanblue
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Ahhhhh, isn't that a shame?! Ha ha-great decision!! I thought that request was really stepping on your toes, you ARE the producer dammit!
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