#1683824 - 09/19/05 04:01 AM
Mastering?!
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BrianK
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Loc: Los Angeles,CA,UNITED STATES
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This is a sore subject for some - for me especially. I really HATE people who try to do everything themselves, BUT I am going to ry to become a mastering engineer, to an extent. Likely just for my own projects, but in some ways, it seems you can keep your vision all the way through something instead of...
Like today - I have spent months on and off recording a VERY traditional hard rock album (Faces, Who, Stones, AC/DC styles). My main mastering guy is unavailable for the month and the band need to get it done NOW. So - on referral, we found a guy who was reasonable on short notice. LONG list of credits.
Overall, the EQ is decent, but I think the raw mixes had a bit more extension. However, dynamically, it came out limited to death. I know the band wanted "loud", but the L2 certainly got it's way with this record. To most people, it now sounds "fine" and pro. To me, it sounds like it has no life - no character, no punch, no reality. Argh... I may be able to convince them to redo it with the limiter set only to "stun", not "kill"...
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#1683825 - 09/19/05 11:25 AM
Re: Mastering?!
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PBBPaul
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You should really look up Bill Roberts from these forums. He has great ears and is a hell of a decent guy to work with. I can't recommend him highly enough.
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#1683826 - 09/21/05 01:40 AM
Re: Mastering?!
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J.J. Blair
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Registered: 07/22/05
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Loc: Hollywood, CA
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Brian, I'm e-meiling you.
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#1683827 - 09/23/05 07:05 PM
Re: Mastering?!
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J.J. Blair
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Registered: 07/22/05
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Loc: Hollywood, CA
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BTW, didn't Bill Roberts just die?
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#1683828 - 09/24/05 01:30 PM
Re: Mastering?!
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mixfix
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Loc: Hollywood/Burbank
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Will you be mastering only your own work? or will you be open for bizness?
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#1683829 - 10/14/05 07:18 AM
Re: Mastering?!
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BrianK
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ARRRGH. Happened again (twice this week actually), someone mastered something I mixed and stretched it all wrong. Not compressed to death (well, only one was, what a relief) but added significant top end to bring out cymbals and stuff, making the vocals too thin and sibilant.
Geez, some of us mixing don't put everything equally flat for a reason. If you stretch it to fill in holes and gaps, it can actually *uck up the normal mix levels. WOW the cymbals are equal now, too bad the vocal and guitar tones suck now...
I AM GONNA LEARN TO MASTER AND DO IT MYSELF. Why let someone reinterpret what you want? Pro photographers don't send their film to Photomat, fashion designers don't let someone else pick the model and what shoes go with the clothes, professional cooks don't let someone else finish off their creation either. No need for recording people to let someone else mess with things...
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Relax and float downstream...
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#1683830 - 10/14/05 07:21 AM
Re: Mastering?!
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BrianK
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>>Will you be mastering only your own work? or will you be open for bizness?<<
My own only. While I THINK I could do a better job than some of these people, that's my opinion, and I'm sure all these masteing guys think that their way is best too.
My style is a VERY unusual approach that I have; a very traditional one that says NOT to change too much what's there. I ignore volume levels and don't care if the highs and lows match modern movie soundtracks.
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#1683831 - 10/25/05 07:31 AM
Re: Mastering?!
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Bill@Welcome Home Studios
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There are so many realy good guys out there... I'm not trying to discourage you from learning a new skill-set, but would not your client be better served by you passing the work off to an experienced pro, while you learn the process?
I could suggest a bunch... David Glasser at Airshow just did a project for a friend of mine, Brad Blackwood is always an option, Alan Silverman, Bob Katz, perhaps Glenn Meadows (I don't know if, under his current label deal, he takes any outside work or not)... I mean, it is not hard to find quality people.
Bill
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"...it's easier than hitting the kids, and almost as much fun..."
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#1683832 - 10/25/05 07:04 PM
Re: Mastering?!
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Gruupi
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Registered: 06/09/03
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Loc: Dallas
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At what point in time did separate mastering experts come into play in major studio releases. I would think that the skill set for a mixer and masterer shouldn't be much difference at all. Sure having a second set of ears to run through the final product is always nice, but is it really essential. Shouldn't a good mixer or producer be pretty good at mastering anyway?
It just seems so many people are involved in the record business these days that the musicians almost get lost in the equation. I am not discounting the fact that the team of people that help create records isn't valueable. A good engineer and producer can help a band or artist sound as good as they should (sometimes better hehe). But does every record have to go through all that.
The recordings of the last century somehow managed to have the essense of the artist down. These days the musicians seem to have very little input into what the final product is. Maybe I don't have firm grasp of what a mastering engineer does. After all, it still comes down to good performances, and then a good set of ears to make sure everything sounds balanced.
I've read about several artists over the years being unhappy with the final product, usually more when it was vinyl that didn't get mastered right, but that just sounds like someone didn't verify the final product before it was distributed. I am sure you can mess up a mix after its done, but can you really make all that much a difference other than not f...ing it up?
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#1683833 - 10/26/05 06:23 AM
Re: Mastering?!
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BrianK
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>>>There are so many realy good guys out there... <<<
Here's the propblem. I NEVER get a budget that allows for mastering to be done twice. So, in finding out who is good, you can RUIN a whole project. And it has happened. Not good.
As the above post said - WHY is it a separate skill set to master than to mix? It is not and should not be. Especially if you are close to the project and know it well. Your ears are what counts, more than the gear.
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#1683834 - 10/26/05 09:18 AM
Re: Mastering?!
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miroslav
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I agree, that if you are able to mix properly...you should be able to master it too.
However, there are some things that come into play when you master.
The equipment can be a bit more specialized and more accurate, including the room.
Also, when mastering, you listen to the whole mix a little differently than when you are mixing it…IMO.
While mixing, you are more focused on controlling the individual elements to build the final mix. With mastering…you are just refining the final mix…not the individual elements.
Though I guess there is some overlap…like when the mastering process attempts to re-mix…either because of necessity…or because of mastering ego.
I think if you can cover the equipment issues…and give yourself a good break between the mixing and the mastering…you can wear both hats…at different times.
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miroslav - miroslavmusic.com"Just because it happened to you, it doesn't mean it's important."
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#1683835 - 10/26/05 11:51 AM
Re: Mastering?!
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doug osborne
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Mastering in the vinyl era was done by people who had gear that you couldn't possibly have at home (record cutting lathe, for example). There were guys who had better gear and better ears than the average engineer, but the ME's job was pretty cut 'n dried.
Now, there is so much mystical mumbo jumbo about mastering that people forget that mastering firstly must serve the music - the function of mastering is to conform the mix so it can be delivered to replication. Among the golden ears, $40k speakers, and pixie dust is a lot of salesmanship.
I'm at the point of mastering an EP of songs I collaborated on and mixed. After considering and consulting with the cream of the crop of L. A. MEs, we have chosen the guy - someone who is well known around here. I plan to master them myself, and then compare them to the premium service the artist will be paying for.
Your analogies about photographers, fashion designers, and chefs are sometimes true. The old saying that mastering your own mix is like giving yourself a haircut (or like pulling your own teeth) is also sometimes true.
I'll let you know how my adventure ends.
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#1683836 - 10/27/05 06:17 PM
Re: Mastering?!
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Jeff Klopmeyer
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Originally posted by BrianK:
As the above post said - WHY is it a separate skill set to master than to mix? It is not and should not be. Especially if you are close to the project and know it well. Your ears are what counts, more than the gear.
I even have someone else master my own shit. Especially my own shit.
- Jeff
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#1683837 - 10/28/05 12:44 AM
Re: Mastering?!
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Mark Horne
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Registered: 10/27/05
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It seems unfortunate to me that some modern day ME's feel like they are the final link in the creative chain. Their role is to have the high-end gear, an ideal listening environment, and well-trained ears in order to add consistency and a final "polish" to the finished product. It's certainly not their role to slam the hell out of the tracks unless the client specifically asks for that.
I'm afraid that the popular "sonic vocabulary" has shifted in recent years to "louder is better" due to all the low-bandwith listening habits (Ipod, mp3's on computer speakers) of the average music consumer. I predict that down the road, as bandwidth improves, just like analog gear, dynamics will be cool again and music will sound a lot more musical.
Keep fighting the good fight because once they squeeze the life out of your tracks you can't get it back!
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#1683838 - 10/28/05 01:26 AM
Re: Mastering?!
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Bill@Welcome Home Studios
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Originally posted by Mark Horne:
It seems unfortunate to me that some modern day ME's feel like they are the final link in the creative chain. ... It's certainly not their role to slam the hell out of the tracks unless the client specifically asks for that.
Bill
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"...it's easier than hitting the kids, and almost as much fun..."
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#1683839 - 10/28/05 07:21 AM
Re: Mastering?!
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BrianK
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Registered: 12/17/00
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Yes, Bill!! That's why I never use 2-bus compression. I save it for the boys with the GOOD gear and when you know how much it will need.
>>> The equipment can be a bit more specialized and more accurate, including the room. Also, when mastering, you listen to the whole mix a little differently than when you are mixing it…IMO.>>>
Agreed, as tracking is quite different than mixing, yet many of us are GOOD at both, and knowing one helps you with the other!
Gearwise - I'm starting to think that whatever I can get/use, it's better in MY hands than better gear in the hands of someone who doesn't "get it". And with the situation on my time and in my arena, I can try something and come back and redo it without the huge cost! How it sounds is The Real World is far more important than the process by which it is done.
I have been doing this for about 20 years now, and RARELY have I heard mastering I liked. I almost always end up telling the guy how to set the gear, and it DOES come out well - they often use it for their demo reels etc. I DO know what I'm doing. Most of us are really serious about this stuff, right?
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#1683840 - 10/31/05 03:55 PM
Re: Mastering?!
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Bill Roberts
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Registered: 01/18/03
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BTW, didn't Bill Roberts just die?
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#1683841 - 10/31/05 04:07 PM
Re: Mastering?!
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J.J. Blair
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Glad that what I heard was not true ... unless Bill has joined the ranks of the undead!
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#1683842 - 10/31/05 07:23 PM
Re: Mastering?!
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Bill Roberts
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Registered: 01/18/03
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Hi JJ, I did look into it somewhat. I think I know what happened. My Dad had a near fatal heart attack Aug 10th and someone (unknown) miscontrued it to be me. I did have a health issue a little while back but not fatal of course!
I am happy to say my Dad is doing much better now after a 5 way bypass and hopefully his health will continue to improve. He is 82 now..and it caught us all by surprise, because he maintains an active lifestyle. Nothing you can do is compensation for a bad diet though.
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Bill Roberts Precision Mastering
-----------Since 1975-----------
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