#1683758 - 08/22/05 06:55 PM
The great American mic hunt-you pointed at the soundhole???
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Kendrix
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JJ
Tx for a most excellent article on the mics this month.
It was a good mix of history, technical info and observations from someone who seems to use their ears.
I was going along just fine. I was duly impressed with all your knowledge and apparenet history with these legendary microphones.
Then...I got to this...
"I recorded a Martin D35 from about five inches pointing directly into the sound hole"
Say what? Are you goofing on us or is it really something you do?
Every one I speak to and everything Ive read about micing acoustic gtrs speaks about absolutely not pointing at the soundhole or else you are faced with allot of "boom" to deal with.
This would be especially true on this particular guitar.
So, are you just a contrarian?
Is this really a killer micing tehnique that has somehow been kept hidden from the masses?
I know this approach doenst work for me- and thats on my smaller bodied maple taylor- which is hardly the boom generator that the Martin is.
Wazzup with that?
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#1683759 - 08/22/05 11:07 PM
Re: The great American mic hunt-you pointed at the soundhole???
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J.J. Blair
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You've never read about Jimmy Page's acoustic recordings? A Martin D35 (which I used in the article), with an LDC pointed at the soundhole. Page used a U67, and practically had the thing INSIDE the soundhole, almost. They are not boomy guitars at all. In fact, my Taylor has much more bottom than the Martin (which has more midrange). But even so, I have done many acoustic based records like that on my Taylor, on Martins, on old Gibsons, you name it.
What mics are you using? That might be part of your problem.
This is not a hidden technique. I've seen guys use a second mic somewhere, but I've rarely seen somebody NOT mic the sound hole.
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#1683760 - 08/23/05 08:19 AM
Re: The great American mic hunt-you pointed at the soundhole???
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Kendrix
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No kidding. News to me.
So, did Page's recordings turn out OK??? 
I may be losing it - but I do recall reading about NOT doing this in a number of articles on the subject.
I used to use an AT4033 on my Taylor 612CE(Maple) and mix in some DI to taste.
When doing this I usually ended up with the mic orientated at an angle to the instrument pointing either towards the bridge or somewhere around upper part of the guitar body.
If pointed around the soundhole things got a bit "tubby", less crisp and random dynamics seemed more objectionable
Now, as a result of some of Bruces S's posts in these forums, Ive switched to a XY configuration of AKG C460's SDC's for tracking acoustic gtr. One points towards the base of the body the other towards the top of the body.
Very nice.
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#1683761 - 08/23/05 12:14 PM
Re: The great American mic hunt-you pointed at the soundhole???
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J.J. Blair
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I have not used the AT4033, so I can't really garner an educated guess about what's going on there. I'm not a fan of recording with the DI. They usually make the picking sound kind of plastic.
I own C460s, but never use them on acoustic. However, I have a Neumann SM69 that I use in XY sometimes on acoustic. XY is a cool thing sometimes.
I don't know what that particular guitar sounds like. If something is too tubby, the first thing I will do is use a lighter pick for strumming. I keep several gauges around just for that reason.
If you ever get around to buying an open and airy LDC, like a C12, a Manley Gold Reference or a ELA M251 type clone, try those on the soundhole. That's the type of mic I tend to use. You get more of the strings and less of the body. It really sounds magical.
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#1683762 - 08/23/05 01:13 PM
Re: The great American mic hunt-you pointed at the soundhole???
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Kendrix
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Tx for the pointers
I could try my Soundelux u195 on the soundhole.
It got a wide peak at 12K.
On the body of the guitar I didnt like it - it was a bit too "tweaked".
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#1683763 - 08/23/05 01:26 PM
Re: The great American mic hunt-you pointed at the soundhole???
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ToddP
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I never recorded my D35 with the mic straight at the sound hole.... until I used the Brauner. Pointing it straight at the sound hole, I got as close to the real sound of my guitar as I ever have.
Some mics have enough detail to do it. It is a great sound with the right mic. After all, it is where most of the sound is coming from, so getting that sound off axis doesn't do it justice IMO.
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#1683764 - 08/23/05 01:47 PM
Re: The great American mic hunt-you pointed at the soundhole???
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Cojonesonasteek
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I have used a Soundelux U95S in cardioid about 18" from the soundhole with excellent results. Sometimes I add a 460 or KM84 on the neck at the 12th fret and adjust the phase with an IPB to bring out a little more top end.
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#1683765 - 08/24/05 03:49 AM
Re: The great American mic hunt-you pointed at the soundhole???
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J.J. Blair
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BTW, it's mic hunt. Of course you point it at the hole. (nyuk nyuk nyuk)
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#1683766 - 08/24/05 09:02 AM
Re: The great American mic hunt-you pointed at the soundhole???
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Kendrix
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Originally posted by J.J. Blair:
BTW, it's mic hunt. Of course you point it at the hole. (nyuk nyuk nyuk)
That is such a sick and disgusting pun.
I love it.
Usually I collect the groans for those.
I cant believe I didnt think of it first.
So its "great"? Says who?
I still think that pointing at the body can be fun. It makes it mo woody.
Also, don't forget to use your ears.
Nyuk nyuk nyuk
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#1683767 - 08/24/05 11:56 AM
Re: The great American mic hunt-you pointed at the soundhole???
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miroslav
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Isn't that hole (pun intented) "mic hunt" thing originally from the 1982 movie, "Porky's"...?
In the movie...the waitress at the local burger joint gets a phone call, and she walks around announcing:
"Phone call for Mike Hunt."..."Phone call for Mike Hunt."..."Has anyone seen Mike Hunt?"
:p
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#1683768 - 08/24/05 05:51 PM
Re: The great American mic hunt-you pointed at the soundhole???
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J.J. Blair
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Mike Hunt is an old joke, way before Porky's. BTW, I didn't name the article that. It was the editor's brilliant idea. With that sense of humor, no wonder he asked me to run a forum!
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#1683769 - 08/25/05 05:26 AM
Re: The great American mic hunt-you pointed at the soundhole???
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BrianK
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I almost never use the soundhole - as he said - too much boom, which is why people often tape triangles of paper over it when tracking. The neck/body joint is by far, the most common spot I see/have used. But the bridge itself - as mentioned - gives that woody tone. For acoustics though, every one is different - and I usually end up listening and moving, listening and moving, over and over...
BTW - When I met Jimmy Page, he went on and on about how he mainly used old 1970's Yamaha acoustics in the studio. He said they record better than anything - and it is true, the early ones are fantastic.
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#1683771 - 08/25/05 04:26 PM
Re: The great American mic hunt-you pointed at the soundhole???
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J.J. Blair
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Well, when the powers that be get around to it, you will understand why we are naming this forum "Use Your Ears". It's never the same and what works for us might not work for you or be a sound that you are after. I do stuff all the time that people suspect would sound like crap if they looked at the setup, but have never once had a criticism of those sounds.
Here's a track on my mp3 page with three acoustics all mic'd on the sound hole:
http://homepage.mac.com/jjblair/.cv/jjbl...dan.m4a-zip.zip
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#1683772 - 08/25/05 06:58 PM
Re: The great American mic hunt-you pointed at the soundhole???
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Kendrix
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No need to post MP3's to convince me.
But thanks anyway for taking the time to do so.
I totally agree with the ears comment.
The specific conditions involved can yield unexpected results.
I've experienced that myself.
This just ran counter to what I recall reading, hearng about and seeing many times before.
It just goes to show you the danger of thinking too much, developing limiting habits and foreclosing opportunities in the process.
Its this uniqueness of each situation that helps make this recording/production process so magical.
The trick is to be able to flexibly "sense and respond" so as to make this variability work for you rather than against you.
In theory that's what the big boys are getting paid the big buck$ for.
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#1683773 - 08/26/05 06:48 AM
Re: The great American mic hunt-you pointed at the soundhole???
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miroslav
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Originally posted by J.J. Blair:
...you will understand why we are naming this forum "Use Your Ears".
EQ's Use Your Ears
It should probably be written as:
EQ's - Use Your Ears
But I think you should change it to:
EQ's Your Ears 
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#1683774 - 08/26/05 09:32 AM
Re: The great American mic hunt-you pointed at the soundhole???
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BrianK
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I don't think it's going to have EQ in the title... we'll see.
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#1683776 - 08/26/05 04:46 PM
Re: The great American mic hunt-you pointed at the soundhole???
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tripit
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Originally posted by BrianK:
I almost never use the soundhole - as he said - too much boom, which is why people often tape triangles of paper over it when tracking. The neck/body joint is by far, the most common spot I see/have used. But the bridge itself - as mentioned - gives that woody tone. For acoustics though, every one is different - and I usually end up listening and moving, listening and moving, over and over...
BTW - When I met Jimmy Page, he went on and on about how he mainly used old 1970's Yamaha acoustics in the studio. He said they record better than anything - and it is true, the early ones are fantastic.
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What the hell is that thing?
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#1683777 - 08/26/05 08:08 PM
Re: The great American mic hunt-you pointed at the soundhole???
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J.J. Blair
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My source on the Page thing is an interview from last year. Also, it's odd he says that, because I all the pics I have seen are with a Martin. Definitely a head scratcher.
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#1683778 - 08/27/05 02:13 PM
Re: The great American mic hunt-you pointed at the soundhole???
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Philip O'Keefe
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JJ, just out of curiousity, what type of Taylor do you have? I've got a pristine 1995 510 that was a wedding present from my wife.... gotta love women who buy you guitars. 
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#1683779 - 08/27/05 09:25 PM
Re: The great American mic hunt-you pointed at the soundhole???
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J.J. Blair
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It's either a 410 or a 610 from 1992-ish. Whichever one has the lacquer finish with mahogany back, spruce top, ebony fret board and bridge. Got it for grand in Rhinelander, WI. It's such a great strummer. My now wife took it out of my hands while I was playing it, leaned it against the desk, stradled me and proceeded to knock it over and break the neck off on our third date. Good thing I wound up marrying her!
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#1683780 - 08/27/05 10:18 PM
Re: The great American mic hunt-you pointed at the soundhole???
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Kendrix
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Wow-
So, did Taylor fix the neck for you?
Its amazing how different the different taylors can sound- Between the sizes and the woods.
Ive got a 612 quilted maple/spruce.
Its very crisp and not too deep.
Its a bit compressed - not too loud.
That's all good for recording when mixing in with other sounds.
I just fell in love with a Rosewood/Cedar beauty at my local GC.
It sounds gorgeous. Best of many, many that I played.
$3000+- No way Jose. Not today.
Why do i always like the expensive ones?
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#1683781 - 08/28/05 12:11 AM
Re: The great American mic hunt-you pointed at the soundhole???
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J.J. Blair
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A local luthier named Mark Fuqua, who builds those funny looking guitars that QOTSA plays, did a fantastic job fixing it.
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#1683782 - 08/29/05 02:41 PM
Re: The great American mic hunt-you pointed at the soundhole???
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FIBES
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I love my new balls!
I just tried out my new Bova Balls on acoustic guitar and must say I'm very impressed. They are kinda Omni and although i use omni on acoustic quite a bit these things have a magic attached to them. They claim that the ball shaped housing (like the DPA) captures the higher frequencies in a more directional way. I was skeptical but now realize that those things do unique things on a psychoacoustic level.
We tried X/Y, ORTF, near coincident and a few other random placements and ALL of them had the bass frequencies tightly up the middle, the low mids almost scooped and spread in a cool way and the highs dancing around the edges like magic dust. These mics are bright but not harsh, natural but also supernatural and they will be staying with me for a host of uses I'm sure.
The next trial will be on drums whenever i get a shot at tracking in between my mix month of August.
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#1683783 - 08/30/05 12:31 AM
Re: The great American mic hunt-you pointed at the soundhole???
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J.J. Blair
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Oddly enough, Eugene asked me to write a review on Benwah Balls when he was editor at Honcho. I encountered some difficulty using the ORTF mounts, however. Very painful.
Maybe I can review the balls for the Sonic Bukakke Issue?
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#1683784 - 08/30/05 10:48 AM
Re: The great American mic hunt-you pointed at the soundhole???
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FIBES
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You can review them if you can get a pair. Snicker.
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#1683785 - 09/10/05 12:54 PM
Re: The great American mic hunt-you pointed at the soundhole???
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archtop
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how come the guitars sound like they were pointed at the sound hole ?
you whip out an mp3 that's got Johnny Cash singin'
and were supposed to focus on the guitar.
hey where's the dang smilies
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#1683787 - 09/30/05 12:39 PM
Re: The great American mic hunt-you pointed at the soundhole???
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J.J. Blair
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Hey, Lz. Well, as far as this soundhole thing goes, a bass' f-hole works a little differently and you are trying to get that deep woody sound out of a bass, which you might not want from a guitar. But I think it really depends on the mic. Some mics do not like the hole, and make them sound all boxy. I tend to use mics, like a C12, that do. However, I'm not going to deprive a mic that wants to be a U47 of the opportunity to recording the bottom end of a guitar, so it definitely gets the hole!
There's a mic I really wanted to review, but there were none available to shoot out. However, I've heard the mic on its own and loved it. It's called the Perlman TM1, and uses a Peluso (who used to work for Neumann) made K47 capsule, a real EF14 tube and a Cinemag transformer. I heard it next to the Peluso 2247 and preferred the Pearlman. I think you can buy them direct from Dave Pearlman at rotundrascal.com for like $1,400. I'd ask for a demo period to make sure you like it. But that is the route I've been recommending to people looking for a cheaper option to a U47 these days.
Let me know what you do and how anything turns out.
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