#1683608 - 08/04/05 05:45 PM
Hardware EQ after Tracking?
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C J Hoffman
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Registered: 07/04/05
Posts: 97
Loc: Las Vegas
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First time posting on this forum though I've been reading it for a year or so. Thank you all for your wealth of insight and information
I'm running DP 3.11, with AD8000 and Minime converters, and a True Sytems pre-8. Mics I use are AT 4050 and 4060, 3X421's, 2XKm184's and others(57's, SP-1's etc)
I'm wanting to get some mic pres with some character, possibly DAKING, MILLENIA STT1, OR VINTECH, but I'm not sure how they would fit in to the "tracking with no EQ" philosophy toward digital recording.
Would I bus tracks to these units during mixdown, after cutting flat through my straight-wire rig? Should I go through a mic pre a second time for eq? what about the gain structure in tha scenario?
In other words, how can I get the benefit of these sweet EQ's without backing myself into a corner by tracking with EQ?
Thanks in advance
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#1683609 - 08/05/05 03:34 AM
Re: Hardware EQ after Tracking?
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BrianK
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Registered: 12/17/00
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Loc: Los Angeles,CA,UNITED STATES
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WOW (and welcome)! - dangerous question - especially given the caveats JJ posted up front in this section. How about we sideline you with some theory instead. You can then decide, possibly with new perspective.
As you like to track with no EQ, I'd say "right on". EQ up front induces phase shift (most cases) and you are only GUESSING how the sound might need to be during the mix. Let's say you add +2 dB at 10k on a vocal. Then, when mixing, you might need to cut back 1dB, or maybe add even more. With the same EQ - or especially any other EQ - this smears the sound even more. EQ it once, and get it right - when? In the mix.
Before the mix, you can choose mics, positions and preamps to your available limitations. Your idea of pre's can be very useful here, as well as in the mix.
_______________________________________________
So... preamps.
It sounds like you might benefit from a variety, if you want the variety of tones they can introduce sans EQ. I bet 3 or 4 choices would work better for you (and me) than one KILLER preamp.
A mic pre with EQ allows you to later route through for some EQ. But I always like "seperates" for the options and quality you get. Most things come in distinct packages if you like... EQs or Pres.
Why no get it ALL seperate though - the best of each in it's own box (API, Chandler, Neve, Universal Audio, Daking, Avalon, Quad Eight, Trident, etc....) The combinations can get interesting too.
_________________________
Relax and float downstream...
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#1683610 - 08/05/05 05:34 AM
Re: Hardware EQ after Tracking?
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C J Hoffman
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Sounds good, and plays perfectly into my ever growing lust for shiny new things in my studio!
BTW, For EQ-ing during mix, I'm wondering if I don't really need the gain again from a mic pre? So should some hardware eq's be budgeted into the scenario? I've read alot about plugins vs hardware processing, but not much specifically about hardware vs plug-in EQ. Is there a benefit/downside to using hardware eq at mixdown besides the obvious processing power saved?
Thanks again
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#1683611 - 08/05/05 06:26 AM
Re: Hardware EQ after Tracking?
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C J Hoffman
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In other words, should I earmark the dough for great pres without EQ (then I could get more of 'em!) and then eq in "the box" or bus to outboard EQs at mixdown?
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#1683612 - 08/05/05 06:02 PM
Re: Hardware EQ after Tracking?
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J.J. Blair
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Registered: 07/22/05
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Loc: Hollywood, CA
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Personally, I think you are better EQing before the box than EQing in the box. I have yet to hear a digital EQ that sounds or behaves like an anlog EQ. I tended to not EQ to tape, but ever since working in PT, I have acquired the habit of EQing certain things, where if it's going to be mixed in the box, it might need to be EQ'd later. Most of my gear is old, so I can't really vouch formuch new mic pre/EQs, however I am in love with the Daking 52270. A bargain at the price and I'd pick it any day over the Vintech gear. My friend Ross speaks highly of the Chandler EMI stuff. I would tend to trust him.
If you want to EQ in the box, the only EQs I will use are the URS Neve and API emulations. The A-1o is pretty dead on to the API 560B, and the Neve type and API 550A type are pretty close to a point. they are definitely superior in terms of sounding analog to anny other plug-in EQ I have used. They are very affordable in the RTAS verion, too. However, as I said, I prefer the real thing.
On a "more of them" tip, check out the Daking 4 channel unit.
My friend Alain, who co-produced and engineered the Chris Cornell record Euphoria Morning, is a mix it in the box guy. He will run a track through an analog EQ and then record it as a new track, rather than use a plug-in in some cases. That is always a possibility to consider if you only have a couple of good EQs and you can't use them on the aux busses. Having a mic pre with EQ built in is handy in this case, so that you can use the line in and get two functions out of a single piece of gear.
_________________________
Friends don't let friends act like rockstars.
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#1683613 - 08/06/05 03:02 AM
Re: Hardware EQ after Tracking?
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C J Hoffman
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Nicely juxtaposed veiwpoints, Brian and JJ. Thank you both. Very helpful.
I am, in fact, looking hard at the Daking 4 channel as well as the API four channel. And I haven't ruled out the Vintech 473, Although I appreciate your comments regarding Vintech.
I find myself being called upon periodically to record horns, drums, and I hope soon, strings. So I really do need multiple hi-end pre channels to accomodate all the inputs. My true systems pre 8 was a giant step up for me and to me, even vocals sound awesome through the 4060 and the pre 8.
But my pediatric recording ears are easily impressed. I've been a live keyboard player my whole life, only jumping into recording in the last 3 or four years.
The reality is, I don't yet have the confidence to EQ to track much, save adding some air to a vocal or high-passing something that has no business existing below 125.
But, I can totally see myself recording an existing track through an outboard eq to a new track or "take" and benefitting from some analog "love". Maybe utilizing EQ in that way will eventually lead the way to more confidence in EQing while tracking.
Thank you both and I welcome further comments from everyone.
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#1683614 - 08/06/05 04:19 AM
Re: Hardware EQ after Tracking?
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BrianK
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Registered: 12/17/00
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Maybe look for older EQ's - good quality, but not too expensive. Quad Eight, or Spectra Sonics, or Cadac or ? Thiking outside the norm - some things can get you quality - trust your ears, not mine or anyone though.
I've found there a REAL shortage of good EQs for cheap. We have tons of good mic pres and mics, but an analog hardware EQ is either junk or it's very expensive... I've been hinting at people to make a solid=state Pultec copy - it wouldn't sound as good as the real tube/transformer deal, but the design is good and it would sound GREAT; theoretically, it could be sold for about $299 easily.
_________________________
Relax and float downstream...
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#1683615 - 08/06/05 01:09 PM
Re: Hardware EQ after Tracking?
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C J Hoffman
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I did a quick search on Ebay for those EQ's, but nothing turned up. Any current mid-priced high quality eq's I should look at?
"But, I can totally see myself recording an existing track through an outboard eq to a new track or "take" and benefitting from some analog "love". Maybe utilizing EQ in that way will eventually lead the way to more confidence in EQing while tracking."
Can I use a mike pre/eq this way if it has a line in? Or could there be a build up of unwanted frequencies as a result of hitting the pre twice?
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#1683616 - 08/06/05 01:29 PM
Re: Hardware EQ after Tracking?
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BrianK
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It's unusual to send a mic signal into a Preamp at all - that's for signals much smaller than a Line-Level. It would often distort to run into the pre - although some can do it - depending on your signal. It will all colouration for sure - as ANY piece of gear would. However, I think if you're EQing tracks a decent amount, the EQ would help you a lot! Pre's for recording, mainly - some good "tone options" when tracking. Then Eq's for afterward.
I can't really recommend any midline EQ's - maybe one of the Neve copies by Wunder or something? Trying a "classic design" at least will get you some good sound. There are optional EQs that won't behave like modern EQ's, but that sound great: White and Urei graphic EQs, Krohn-Hite filters, Urei Little Dipper - some interesting sounds with very little investment...
_________________________
Relax and float downstream...
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#1683617 - 08/11/05 11:56 AM
Re: Hardware EQ after Tracking?
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C J Hoffman
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What about an avalon AD 2022 or some other mastering eq, to bus tracks out and back in? Overkill? Or just really good? Then I could use it at the mastering stage as well. HMMMM?
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#1683618 - 08/11/05 04:09 PM
Re: Hardware EQ after Tracking?
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J.J. Blair
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Registered: 07/22/05
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When I mix in the box, I run the mix out of the box through an NTI EQ3 and then through whichever compressor I feel like that day, and then back in the box. I do that on console mixes to tape, anyway. I'm not familiar with the 2022, but I'm not crazy about the Avalon stuff I've used. If you are going to mastering, and he has analog EQ and compression and knows what he's doing, you're probably better off letting him do it.
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