#1682859 - 07/08/05 01:31 PM
Is this limiter adding low end? !
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alanfc
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hi, I've been using the Kjaerhus classic limiter alot, and I want to see if I'm imagining this or not...
On the full stereo mix, when I use it after my regular compressor:
1)Setting the limiter at -0.2 and getting volume from the output of the compressor vs.
2)bringing down the output on the compressor and cranking the Limiter down to -2.0 to get some volume.
when I crank down the limiter to -2.0 instead of 0.2, the lows seem to get really fat and boomy. But my freq. analyzer doesn't show it.
My ears do- I know thats what matters but I was just curious about the tech science behind that.
thanks
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#1682860 - 07/08/05 02:28 PM
Re: Is this limiter adding low end? !
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miroslav
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That's the thing about using compressors on a full mix...
...they always end up screwing with your balance...
...and that is what you are hearing.
Also....what do you mean "-2.0" and "0.2"...???
If you are talking about the Threshold...it goes form -20 on up to 0.
If you are turning the Threshold down to -20...then yeah...EVERTHING that hits the limiter is going to be affected....VS. you setting the Threshold at -2...which would only affect the peaks that hit it.
Also...
How are you setting the compressor that is before the limiter...???
You have a lot of variables going on there, and you have not told us everything.
My advice...
...remove the compressor from the stereo mix altogether...and if your really MUST do a little limiting to control clipping...then set the Threshold on the limiter a bit higher (-4, -2).
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#1682861 - 07/08/05 04:11 PM
Re: Is this limiter adding low end? !
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alanfc
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Originally posted by miroslav:
That's the thing about using compressors on a full mix...
...they always end up screwing with your balance...
...and that is what you are hearing.
Also....what do you mean "-2.0" and "0.2"...???
If you are talking about the Threshold...it goes form -20 on up to 0.
If you are turning the Threshold down to -20...then yeah...EVERTHING that hits the limiter is going to be affected....VS. you setting the Threshold at -2...which would only affect the peaks that hit it.
Also...
How are you setting the compressor that is before the limiter...???
You have a lot of variables going on there, and you have not told us everything.
My advice...
...remove the compressor from the stereo mix altogether...and if your really MUST do a little limiting to control clipping...then set the Threshold on the limiter a bit higher (-4, -2).
OK
I played around with this and came to a solution anyway just a few minutes ago.
But I'll clarify my rookie language.
the 2 choices
a. the last in line, the Limiter set at -0.2,
and compressor right before it, set for +2.0 makeup gain.(ratio 1.5, slow attack, long release) I found this to be the cleanest way, that is, clean power without messing with the mix.
OR
b. limiter set at -2.0
and the out gain on the compressor at 0.0
option a. was cleaner and truer.
sorry about the confusion 
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#1682862 - 07/08/05 07:16 PM
Re: Is this limiter adding low end? !
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philbo_Tangent
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It is possible (likely, even) that the things being limited are mids & highs, thus those peaks are removed. This could easily be the source of the extra bass you are hearing.
BUT - - the only way to be sure is to use an SPL meter make sure the measured loudness is the same when comparing the limited vs. unlimited mixes. Otherwise, the difference in volume will affect your perception of bass content (due to Fletcher-Munson effect).
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#1682863 - 07/09/05 12:00 AM
Re: Is this limiter adding low end? !
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alanfc
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OK thanks
the funny sick thing about this is that I finally brought my meter into the car where I give things the ultimate test, (since I know what good pro cd's sound like in there)
and I found that when I test stuff in the car I really push it, to see if it gets harsh or boomy when I crank it.....anyway I found that this "cranked" volume in the car was 90-92 db !
I immediately then went upstairs to my mixing spot and found that my version of 'loud' up there was only 72-75 db !! I'm messed up, I can't get it any louder up here where I mix. I'm in an apartment. I think this is royally messing me up.
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#1682864 - 07/09/05 08:47 AM
Re: Is this limiter adding low end? !
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miroslav
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What is it exactly that you are looking for...?
Don't get too upset that your "version of loud" when you measure in the apartment, is only 75 dB SPL and in the car it is 90 dB SPL.
That is all relative to how far you turn the volume knob...the space you are in…the playback system you are using…and only a smaller percentage to your mix.
Honestly...I'm not clear about what it is that you think you are "testing" in this manner...?
You were first talking about your comp/limiter setup...and know you are comparing what you consider is loud in the car VS. your apartment...
...so I'm a bit confused...???
If your mix sounds good to you at home...and you then check it in the car and it also sounds good...
...don't get too hung up on the 70 vs 90 dB thing.
You have to realize, that monitors and car speakers are not going to sound quite the same.
So...in the car...you may find yourself using a different level to get that same perceived loudness...but then you look at the meter....and…it is not the same as in your apartment.
That's OK.
I think you may be thinking about too many things at the same time.
Not trying to pick at you...but can you maybe describe in more detail what you think you are trying to test...or what is it that you think is right or wrong…?
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#1682865 - 07/09/05 10:51 AM
Re: Is this limiter adding low end? !
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kylen
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Sometimes if you clone the track you're working with (all effects included except the limiter), phase invert the new track - there should be no sound now as the 2 streams cancel out, add the limiter to your original track. The sounds you hear now should be whatever the limiter adds to the picture - if you look at the spectrum in SPAN, or listen to it you should see or hear if it is hyped in the bass or not. That MAY help.
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#1682866 - 07/09/05 11:47 AM
Re: Is this limiter adding low end? !
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alanfc
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Originally posted by miroslav:
What is it exactly that you are looking for...?
Don't get too upset that your "version of loud" when you measure in the apartment, is only 75 dB SPL and in the car it is 90 dB SPL.
That is all relative to how far you turn the volume knob...the space you are in…the playback system you are using…and only a smaller percentage to your mix.
Honestly...I'm not clear about what it is that you think you are "testing" in this manner...?
You were first talking about your comp/limiter setup...and know you are comparing what you consider is loud in the car VS. your apartment...
...so I'm a bit confused...???
If your mix sounds good to you at home...and you then check it in the car and it also sounds good...
...don't get too hung up on the 70 vs 90 dB thing.
You have to realize, that monitors and car speakers are not going to sound quite the same.
So...in the car...you may find yourself using a different level to get that same perceived loudness...but then you look at the meter....and…it is not the same as in your apartment.
That's OK.
I think you may be thinking about too many things at the same time.
Not trying to pick at you...but can you maybe describe in more detail what you think you are trying to test...or what is it that you think is right or wrong…? 
basically I've been doing this because when I first started mixing I never tested stuff anywhere. When I tried a mix in my car for the first time (about a year ago) I was totally crushed at how awful it sounded. (boomy&harsh) .And I can't get that out of my head. So really its just my rookie way of testing for out of control low end and nasty harshness. I know, and the band knows - its just amateur work, but I'm nitpicky on =myself=.
I always think there must be a way. I'm much closer to being satisfied these days but its just ain't good enough for me :rolleyes:
/edit/
I mean I'm just trying to expose the bad stuff. I know if I get it louder ( I don't mean loudness wars 'louder') I can hear the worst
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#1682867 - 07/09/05 11:50 AM
Re: Is this limiter adding low end? !
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alanfc
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Originally posted by kylen:
Sometimes if you clone the track you're working with (all effects included except the limiter), phase invert the new track - there should be no sound now as the 2 streams cancel out, add the limiter to your original track. The sounds you hear now should be whatever the limiter adds to the picture - if you look at the spectrum in SPAN, or listen to it you should see or hear if it is hyped in the bass or not. That MAY help.
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#1682868 - 07/09/05 03:35 PM
Re: Is this limiter adding low end? !
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gaotu
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The decibel level of your playback system shouldn't affect things too much. As you may have noticed, a good professional CD that hasn't been smashed too much will sound pretty darn good at just about any level (that your system can properly handle). I adjust my playback levels all the time during mixing and now in mastering (since I've begun doing that). Things should really sound good at all levels, and this should also open your ears up a bit - that if something sounds wacky at a low level but not at a high level (or vice versa) then you're mix/master is off somewhere. Sure, some frequencies - mostly bass - diminish at lower levels, but your hearing should compensate for that because that's just how it is with everything you listen to all the time (save for some genre's of music with artificially enhanced bass... but even then there is some attenuation of bass at lower levels).
I also have the same limiter (my only limiter), and I must say I've never experienced that, but then again, I may just know what a squashed sound sounds like and have attributed the alteration in the sound to the squashing and not thought of it as increasing the bass!
While we are talking about this. Does anyone know of a spectrum analyzer that can show me the spectrum of another song/track up against the one I'm working with so that I can do visual comparisons?
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#1682869 - 07/09/05 07:25 PM
Re: Is this limiter adding low end? !
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kylen
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Originally posted by gaotu:
While we are talking about this. Does anyone know of a spectrum analyzer that can show me the spectrum of another song/track up against the one I'm working with so that I can do visual comparisons?
Ozone3 - snapshot overlays
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#1682870 - 07/10/05 02:36 AM
Re: Is this limiter adding low end? !
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alanfc
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Originally posted by gaotu:
The decibel level of your playback system shouldn't affect things too much. As you may have noticed, a good professional CD that hasn't been smashed too much will sound pretty darn good at just about any level (that your system can properly handle). I adjust my playback levels all the time during mixing and now in mastering (since I've begun doing that). Things should really sound good at all levels, and this should also open your ears up a bit - that if something sounds wacky at a low level but not at a high level (or vice versa) then you're mix/master is off somewhere. Sure, some frequencies - mostly bass - diminish at lower levels, but your hearing should compensate for that because that's just how it is with everything you listen to all the time (save for some genre's of music with artificially enhanced bass... but even then there is some attenuation of bass at lower levels).
I also have the same limiter (my only limiter), and I must say I've never experienced that, but then again, I may just know what a squashed sound sounds like and have attributed the alteration in the sound to the squashing and not thought of it as increasing the bass!
While we are talking about this. Does anyone know of a spectrum analyzer that can show me the spectrum of another song/track up against the one I'm working with so that I can do visual comparisons?
I use the Voxengo SPAN analyzer for avg RMS checking and frequency analyzing. I used to use Elemental Audio's Inspector but came across SPAN and found it easier to follow.
EA Inspector
http://www.elementalaudio.com/products/inspector/
SPAN
http://www.voxengo.com/product/SPAN/
I import pro songs into Sonar and see how they fall. Its only taken a few times of this and I was able to make a huge change in how I do things with steep cuts at the super high and super low like they do. All the other stuff in between I take note of but haven't chased around too much.
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#1682871 - 07/10/05 09:56 AM
Re: Is this limiter adding low end? !
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miroslav
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So...what kind of monitor setup do you have?
There is nothing wrong with checking mixes in the car...on a boom-box...home stereo...etc..
...but, you really don't want to be using THOSE things to make major decisions on what to cut/boost in your mix.
Also...measuring tools are a nice thing to have...and, they can provide you with some great info.
But...the main tool to use, is your ears. Watch out you don't get too caught up lining up and adjusting waveforms based mostly on visual cues.
Or...trying to copy (ex.) guitar waveform characteristics that sounded great in one song...and then just applying them to other songs.
Again...not being critical here...
...but I get the feeling that you may be getting a bit lost in the whole process...messing with too many variables all at the same time, and maybe not quite understanding how they all interact with each other…?
Here's a simple thing to do...
Find a few of your favorite CD's...stuff that you REALLY think is well mixed...and play them through your monitor setup.
(I would get 3-4 that have some variety...rock, classical...electronica...etc.)
Play them back a few times and get a good handle on how they sound on your monitors.
Now...take them out to your car, and play them.
Compare the differences and similarities between the two playback systems.
Also...set both systems relatively flat...don't crank the bass in the car, if you didn't do it on your monitor system.
What you want to accomplish with this...is to learn what the differences are between the two systems (or any other system you might use for checking playback).
By listening to material that was recorded in a pro manner...you will have less doubt about the mix...and then be able to concentrate more on the playback systems themselvs.
When you hear the differences between the two playback systems...make note of what is different, and then use THAT as a reference point, when you are mixing on your monitor system.
But…your really should mix for the monitor system...not for the car, or the boom-box, or the home stereo...because those things are usually hyped in their playback quality. A car, in most cases…is really a shit system to mix with!!! 
You have to try and get your mixes to sound as right as possible on the monitor system...and then just use the others to check the mix, overall.
If you can't do that...can’t find a good mix on your monitors…you may have a poor monitor setup.
I know some will disagree...but, I feel that if you do a mix on a proper monitor setup...and it sounds really good...you don't need to check it (second guess yourself) on anything else.
It's usually when you are not happy/convinced with what you have, that you start chasing ghosts by checking the mix on a half-dozen other systems...and then constantly tweaking things back and forth...possibly NEVER quite being happy with things...
I have three playback systems in my studio.
Two sets of true monitors, and one really nice "hi-fi" system.
I rarely turn on the second pair of monitors...and only when I am finished with the mix...do I bother listening to it on the "hi-fi" system.
I can’t remember the last time I walked out to my car to check a mix. 
I trust my main monitors...and having gotten to know them...the mixes usually translate quite well to everything else.
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#1682872 - 07/10/05 10:48 AM
Re: Is this limiter adding low end? !
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Bill@Welcome Home Studios
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Okay, here's the real deal.
You should monitor and make all of your mix decisions with a calibrated repeateable monitoring setup. There is nothing wrong with monitoring at 72dB, or whatever is comfortable for you, so long as you can do the job acurately.
If you go to Bob Katz's site (digido.com http://www.digido.com/portal/pmodule_id=11/pmdmode=fullscreen/pageadder_page_id=59 )
you will find some real nice info on the subject. Bob has long recommended that audio guys adopt the SMPTE RP200 standard. I find that the recomended level (83dB) to be fatiquing for any length of time. So I go a few clicks below that on my monitor level control, then click back up to that standard for final check.
I would get -very- hung up in a 20 dB discrepency in listening levels between the car and the house, as the frequency response of human hearing is not linear. And I would guess that you are making listening decisions based upon pressure, not sound, in the car. I played with a bass player like that once, and it was a problem.
Side issue... you should know what music sounds like on your monitors. Get the room right, and forgo the trip to the car.
Bill
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#1682873 - 07/10/05 11:30 AM
Re: Is this limiter adding low end? !
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alanfc
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thanks Miroslav and Bill
a)I used the analyzer for a short time and saw the hi-low end cuts the pro's use, thats all I needed to see. Chasing down the shapes in between to sound like them, thats not my goal.
b)yes I agree my room is a huge factor, I've been through this here..
http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?/ubb/get_topic/f/1/t/025296.html#000000
on our next CD either going to re arrange and treat the room or we'll hire a pro.
thanks again
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#1682874 - 07/12/05 03:19 PM
Re: Is this limiter adding low end? !
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Lee Knight
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Originally posted by philbo_Tangent:
It is possible (likely, even) that the things being limited are mids & highs, thus those peaks are removed. This could easily be the source of the extra bass you are hearing.
I like to use the MB comp, making sure I've retained my spectral balance, then mildly limit with an L2.
That's usually pretty transparent.
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