#1682813 - 07/07/05 02:05 PM
recording bass guitar DI problem
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alcohol_
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I've tried recording a Rickenbacker bass through the DI of a Trace Elliot amp and also with a Avalon U5 Direct Box / Instrument Preamplifier.
I get the same problem with both boxes. The signal sounds thin and when looking at it in Pro Tools Edit window, the signal is skewed to one side of the zero axis
Anyone know how to fix this? Is the problem with the guitar or pickup output, or pickups themselves? Out of phase pickups?
Recording the guitar through the amp with a mic sounds ok and the signal in Pro Tools looks balanced on both sides of the zero axis.
Also, any suggestions for a good mic for miding a bass amp?
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#1682814 - 07/07/05 02:17 PM
Re: recording bass guitar DI problem
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Funkwave
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First of all, do you have the Rick stereo bass? 4001 I believe?
If so, try sending 1 output through DI and the other to an amp with mic. Use a blend of whatever sounds the best.
I don't see any reason why a U5 can't pump some bass juice into your sound card. Could be a pickup problem.
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#1682815 - 07/07/05 04:02 PM
Re: recording bass guitar DI problem
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Philip O'Keefe
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I'm a bit stumped too... My first suggestion would be to make sure you're using the proper output on that Ric, as Funkwave mentioned.
As for bass amp mics, the "usual suspects" for that task would include the Neumann U47 FET, the E/V RE20, Soundelux U195 or iFET7 (in "I" mode)... I've also gotten good results with a Rode NTK on bass.
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#1682816 - 07/07/05 07:47 PM
Re: recording bass guitar DI problem
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where02190
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Try removing the DC offset on the track in Protools.
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Hope this is helpful. NP Recording Studios Analog approach to digital recording.
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#1682817 - 07/08/05 04:52 AM
Re: recording bass guitar DI problem
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Bill@Welcome Home Studios
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Originally posted by where02190:
Try removing the DC offset on the track in Protools.
Bill
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#1682818 - 07/08/05 08:21 AM
Re: recording bass guitar DI problem
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miroslav
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Record to tape. 
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#1682819 - 07/08/05 08:57 AM
Re: recording bass guitar DI problem
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Philip O'Keefe
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Yes, the "offset waveforms" do sound like a DC offset issue... but I don't think I've ever had a problem with DC offset in PT... that's partially what's stumping me.
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#1682820 - 07/08/05 10:49 AM
Re: recording bass guitar DI problem
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alcohol_
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I got to wait until tonight when he comes back with his guitar and check it out. I don't think it's DC offset. I'll do some tests tonight.
Thanks all.
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#1682821 - 07/08/05 10:49 AM
Re: recording bass guitar DI problem
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alcohol_
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I got to wait until tonight when he comes back with his guitar and check it out. I don't think it's DC offset. I'll do some tests tonight.
Thanks all.
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#1682822 - 07/08/05 11:18 AM
Re: recording bass guitar DI problem
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RicBassGuy
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On a 4003 (successor to the 4001), there are two outputs from the bass:
(1) mono, w/bridge, neck, or both pups selectable, or
(2) Ric-o-sound stereo.
Rickenbacker warns that using a standard stereo-to-mono Y cable won't work nearly as well as using a Rickenbacker cable.  I don't know, I only have a Y cable.
I think I recorded one album through the mono output to a Countryman DI. That gave the best signal to a standalone recorder. (Someone else's 16-track; I can't remember which one.) I tried going through the DI of my Hartke 3500 amp and that didn't pan out.
Lately -- because I borrowed the DI -- I've been using the stereo output with a mono cable to a Zoom BFX 708 pedal, then either mono or stereo to GarageBand. It's not ideal, I wouldn't recommend it, but it works well enough for me for now. (Just trying to get some ideas down.)
GarageBand allows me to record a track in stereo, so it works. The standalone had to use two mono tracks; it didn't work so well. When fed identical signals they canceled each other out. (Yeah, not good, but we were "experimenting" with "stereo", got that far and gave up and went mono instead.)
IMO, the Ric-o-sound output sounds better -- even with a mono cable -- than the mono output does through an amp. If you just want the simplest solution, use the mono output on the bass and go through a DI. It is a usable sound. If you want to go all out, get the Ric stereo cable and two DIs. You could mic the cab instead, but I think stereo DIs should be better (as long as there are no phase issues).
Do they make a stereo DI?
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#1682823 - 07/10/05 08:26 AM
Re: recording bass guitar DI problem
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alcohol_
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Did some bass recording last night with the Ric. I didn't notice the waveform being skewed to a side. The DI sounded better than before, though not good enough on its own. I tried Nick's suggestion of using an AKG C4000 to mic the amp and blending the DI. Thanks for the tip, the result was the best result I've had so far.
I'm going to pick up an Empirical Lab Lil Frequency and use that as a second DI with the Avalon U5. I'll try that combo later this week.
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#1682824 - 07/11/05 07:06 AM
Re: recording bass guitar DI problem
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where02190
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Make sure to nugde the mic's track back a ms or 2 until it's in time aligment with the DI.
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Hope this is helpful. NP Recording Studios Analog approach to digital recording.
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#1682825 - 07/11/05 09:34 AM
Re: recording bass guitar DI problem
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miroslav
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Or you can also leave the two tracks "un-aligned"...it will "fatten/soften" the combined sound.
You really have to listen to it both ways, and see which sounds better.
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#1682826 - 07/11/05 05:16 PM
Re: recording bass guitar DI problem
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where02190
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Originally posted by miroslav:
Or you can also leave the two tracks "un-aligned"...it will "fatten/soften" the combined sound.
You really have to listen to it both ways, and see which sounds better.
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#1682827 - 07/11/05 08:13 PM
Re: recording bass guitar DI problem
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miroslav
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Well...I think it would depend on the placement of the mic.
If it is right up against the cab...it will be different than if it is 1 foot away...or if it is 4 feet away...
...when combined with the DI track.
That's why I suggest listening first.
But then...I'm mostly a DI guy for Bass guitar. And if I want to fatten it up more...I'll just split the DI track and do something with that...so I don't deal with the phase issues all that much.
I have another Bass guitar question...
Do you guys like to leave it bone dry, regardless of what you do for the other tracks...or do you give it some wetness, relative to the rest of the mix...?
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#1682828 - 07/11/05 09:04 PM
Re: recording bass guitar DI problem
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Philip O'Keefe
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It depends. For rock stuff, I'm usually for "leaving it dry", but for jazz, or simulating / capturing it in a room environment, a bit of ambience might be appropriate. As always it depends on the context and what you're going for... at least that's my POV. 
Ditto that for kick drums. I tend to lean towards dry on the LF instruments, but I've been known to capture (or add) ambience or ER to kick drums too.
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#1682829 - 07/11/05 09:05 PM
Re: recording bass guitar DI problem
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alcohol_
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I phase align the signals.
I tried the Empirical Labs Lil Freq EA and the Great River EQ-1NV. I preferred the Great River and got a satisfactory result with that EQ.
I've been using a small Trace Elliot amp with a 12" speaker. I think that amp is the present cause of my dissatisfaction. I'm going to get an Ampeg with a 15" in here and see if that improves the situation.
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#1682830 - 07/12/05 12:04 AM
Re: recording bass guitar DI problem
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where02190
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Phase and time alignment are not the same. Since there is latency involved, (the time it takes for the signal to pass from bass to di to converters to hdd vs the time takes for the bass signal to pass from bass to di to amp to speaker to mic to mic pre to converter to hdd) the mic will always, even if it's touching the speaker, be behind the direct. Aligning the mic and DI in time will allow the listener to hear them simultainiously, and create a clearer, more precise tone, free of phase anomolies that are created by the out of time alignment. These are not to be confused with the anomolies that are created by the DI and mix being out of phase alignment.
It is important to correct both if necessary, however my experience is that the time alignment is the more critical. I do this correction with multiple kick mics, and multiple guitar amp mics as well. It works miracles. It's amazing what a single ms of shift does to tonalities.
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