#1682513 - 06/27/05 01:38 PM
1st time I've used ORTF for OH 's
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Lee Knight
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Drum OH's. I've gone the spaced pair route. I've gone XY. I like the spaced, but it doesn't sound real. I like XY for the lack of phase issues, it sounds real, but maybe too real. So...
I tried ORTF. THIS is my favorite so far. At least with this band, this drummer, this weekend, etc.
The close mics really come into play better. There seems to be a natural spot they slide right into while still favoring the OH's for the kit sound.
I placed the pair, using a stereo bar, less than 1 foot from behind and above the drummer's head. Great.
Does anyone else have experience, good or bad with this technique? Also, variations on the placement I used?
How about Baffled Omni Pair with the disc?
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#1682514 - 06/27/05 01:51 PM
Re: 1st time I've used ORTF for OH 's
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offramp
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In my other thread, I mentioned I'd been messing around with some mic techniques this weekend; I hadn't gotten around to ORTF in my drum room...thanks for reminding me.
What mics did you use?
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#1682515 - 06/27/05 02:01 PM
Re: 1st time I've used ORTF for OH 's
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Lee Knight
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I used the Octava 012's into a RNP. I'd like to get the omni capsules and try some more techniques...
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#1682516 - 06/27/05 02:26 PM
Re: 1st time I've used ORTF for OH 's
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MASSIVE Mastering
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I like ORTF a lot on overheads... More "natural" sounding than anything else (IMHO, YMMV, etc.).
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#1682517 - 06/27/05 04:17 PM
Re: 1st time I've used ORTF for OH 's
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AudioMaverick
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For venues where you don't have the walls, try an inverse of ORTF. I position about 60 degrees left and right of center, pointing at the drummer's elbows. (It is really the crotch, but don't let them see you looking there!) I get a similar phase relationship with the mics, but with a direct sound that is a little less "thin".
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#1682518 - 06/27/05 04:21 PM
Re: 1st time I've used ORTF for OH 's
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Philip O'Keefe
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Well, as long as you're experimenting, have you tried a Blumlein pair?
Take a pair of figure 8 mics, physically invert one relative to the other (IOW, one mic right side up, the other upside down), set them so that the capsules are as close together as possible (the inverted mic on top of the other mic) and so that the pickup patterns are at right angles to each other... if you were to imagine the 8's crossed at right angles, so that they form a right angled "X" you've got the idea...  For placement, you can also feel free to experiment. I like just behind and above the drummer's head, but other locations might work for you too. The advantage to the placement right behind and above the drummer is that it gives you a "drummer's seat persepective" of the kit sound.
Because it uses a pair of crossed figure 8 mics, Blumlein pairs will definitely pick up a lot of the "room", so this technique might not be for you if you're recording the drums in a less than great sounding room, but if the room is decent, you might dig the results... but hey, either way, it never hurts to experiment, right? 
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#1682519 - 06/27/05 05:23 PM
Re: 1st time I've used ORTF for OH 's
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Lee Knight
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I want to try the Blumlein but it's a question of mics. I guess a pair of Nadys would solve that for a reasonable outlay...
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#1682521 - 06/28/05 11:10 AM
Re: 1st time I've used ORTF for OH 's
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Lee Knight
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Deleted for clarity.
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#1682522 - 06/28/05 05:30 PM
Re: 1st time I've used ORTF for OH 's
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Philip O'Keefe
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You're right Lee... I probably should have made that a little clearer.  I fixed my original post so hopefully it will be clearer for the next person who reads it.
Glad you liked the link. I could draw stuff like that in myself and post a link, but hey, why reinvent the wheel?  Besides, I'm not known for my drawing / drafting skills.
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#1682524 - 06/29/05 09:55 AM
Re: 1st time I've used ORTF for OH 's
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Lee Knight
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Thanks Dan for the pics. I have to try it out in front of the kit next time.
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#1682525 - 06/29/05 11:11 AM
Re: 1st time I've used ORTF for OH 's
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gaotu
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I checked out that link Phil. Now I'm wondering what the difference is between ORTF and NOS. Not to mention, why I've never learned about the ORTF before. Could someone possibly take a second to explain that one better.
As for my overhead micing. I'm using something I didn't see mentioned. I've tried various things, but I really like the results of this technique (which I think I picked up on this forum). I just position 2 SD Condensers behind the kit and aimed directly at the snare center. One mic on the right and the other on the left - both EXACTLY the same distance from the snare (you'll need to measure). Maybe it's my dead room, but this really seems to get the best sound of the drums for me. I just got my 2 PPA Ribbon mics (like Nady's) yesterday so I'll be experimenting with them soon. I just got drumagog though too... so I'll be cheating some too (LOL)!
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#1682526 - 06/29/05 11:13 AM
Re: 1st time I've used ORTF for OH 's
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gaotu
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Does ORTF give a really wide stereo image?
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#1682527 - 06/29/05 11:33 AM
Re: 1st time I've used ORTF for OH 's
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Lee Knight
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Really wide? It's wider than an XY. Not as wide as a spaced pair. It's a great trade off between the 2. Nice wide image, but very realistic sounding without phase issues.
What I dig about ORTF is it emulates the distance and placement of our ears. Brilliant, simple, effective.
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#1682528 - 06/29/05 12:00 PM
Re: 1st time I've used ORTF for OH 's
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Wooden
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It amazes me that you use studio projects having all those mics, but i am hearing the mp3 and you clearly know what you are doing! 
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#1682529 - 07/01/05 07:31 AM
Re: 1st time I've used ORTF for OH 's
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Wooden
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In the ORTF documents i have read they say "7 inches apart". Apparently you measure it from the capsules right? I think i did this question before i dont remember, but thanks to all.
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#1682531 - 07/01/05 10:50 AM
Re: 1st time I've used ORTF for OH 's
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RaGe
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I drew a triangle that's "ORTF compliant" on a piece of cardboard and cut it. Instant ORTF placement without the guess work.
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#1682533 - 07/01/05 11:33 AM
Re: 1st time I've used ORTF for OH 's
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RaGe
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Great minds think alike!
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#1682534 - 07/01/05 02:18 PM
Re: 1st time I've used ORTF for OH 's
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Philip O'Keefe
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The ORTF spec calls for two identical cardioid mics, angled outwards at 110 degrees (IOW, each 55 degrees off the centerline) and spaced 17cm (approximately 6.7") apart. And yes, the distance is measured from capsule to capsule. You can mark the angles and distance on a sheet of cardboard, or use a protractor with a built in ruler (which is what I use)... you can also put marks for the appropriate angles on to your stereo bar if you'd like, which can also help a bit with the angles, but doesn't help with the distance aspect.
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#1682535 - 07/01/05 06:34 PM
Re: 1st time I've used ORTF for OH 's
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gaotu
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Phil: 17 cm apart? Does that mean, if this configuration were made into a triangle, that one side would be 17cm long? (Is that what you are saying?) And do you meausre from the edge of the capsule or the center of it?
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#1682536 - 07/01/05 06:35 PM
Re: 1st time I've used ORTF for OH 's
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gaotu
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Which reminds me... a little off topic, but not so much and it seems like a good time to ask. Is there an absolute and standard distance mic manufacturers use for the distance between the diaphragm of a mic and the grill/cover? If not... wouldn't that be nice... a standard like that.
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#1682537 - 07/01/05 07:18 PM
Re: 1st time I've used ORTF for OH 's
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Philip O'Keefe
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Phil: 17 cm apart? Does that mean, if this configuration were made into a triangle, that one side would be 17cm long?
Yes, that is correct - the "side" of the triangle that is between the two capsules (the empty space) should measure 17cm.
Center of capsule to center of capsule should equal 17cm. The other "sides" of the triangle would be the microphone bodies... it's definitely NOT an equal length per side (equilateral) triangle... the "side" that is represented by the space between the two capsules will wind up being the longest of the three.
\|/ is about the best I can do with text... but those two "slashes" would be angled outwards (away from that centerline) further... if you use a protractor to measure, that imaginary centerline ("|") to mic angle should be 55 degrees on each side. As long as the angles are at 55 degrees each way off of the imaginary centerline, and the capsules are spaced 17cm apart, you have an ORTF stereo array. You point the "wide" end (IOW, the capsules) towards the sound source... again, thinking of the imaginary centerline might help you with that.
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#1682538 - 07/01/05 07:39 PM
Re: 1st time I've used ORTF for OH 's
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AudioMaverick
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Originally posted by Philip O'Keefe: The ORTF spec calls for two identical cardioid mics, angled outwards at 110 degrees (IOW, each 55 degrees off the centerline) and spaced 17cm (approximately 6.7") apart. And yes, the distance is measured from capsule to capsule. ...
When I recorded a piano recital, I put ORTF int he back of the auditorium, 3 mics on stage, and then the piano. THe ORTFs became the main maics, the 3 stage mics up to support, and the piano just behind for perspective to the ORTFs. I ORTF'd a pair of NT1000s and really liked the result.
YMMV
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#1682539 - 07/01/05 07:41 PM
Re: 1st time I've used ORTF for OH 's
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Sean Eldon
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ive been doing BLUE Kiwis in ORTF through a UA 2-610. the results are that it makes me sound like the best engineer on the planet without even trying. i recorded a jazz trio recently who were really ambient and spacy, and that overhead configuration was all that i used for the drums. i had the other stuff mic'd up, but it sounded so perfect with just the overheads.
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#1682540 - 07/05/05 04:26 PM
Re: 1st time I've used ORTF for OH 's
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RaGe
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#1682541 - 07/06/05 12:57 AM
Re: 1st time I've used ORTF for OH 's
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gaotu
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What's the result if someone plays with the angles a little bit. Is it a god-awful mistake to do that? What science... or bit of scientific information states that 110 degress is "where it's at"?
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#1682542 - 07/06/05 04:44 AM
Re: 1st time I've used ORTF for OH 's
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Philip O'Keefe
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ORTF stands for Office de Raidodiffusion-Television Francaise, which is the French National Broadcasting Corporation. They're the ones who developed the technique. The theory behind it is that the spacing between the mics and the angle (110 degrees) closely simulates the distance and directionality of the human ears.
There is also NOS stereo (NOS stands for Nederlandse Omroep Stichting, the Dutch Broadcasting Organization) mic technique, which is somewhat similar to ORTF, except the mics are angled 90 degrees off center and spaced about 30cm (11.8") apart from capsule to capsule.
Faulkner arrays use a pair of bi-directional mics, facing dead ahead but spaced at 20cm (7.87") from capsule to capsule. I've never been as big a fan of that one, and generally I prefer Blumlein over Faulkner. But anyway, the point is, there are a bunch of different stereo mic techniques, and there are no rules that say you "have to" do anything or follow them to the letter... But if you run the mics at 6.7" apart and angle them at 45 degrees, then it's technically not a "ORTF pair" anymore. But by all means, feel free to experiment, and if you find something you like, please let us know.
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I think you might be confusing M-S with Blumlein... with Blumlein, you do not invert polarity. 
Human head, the mics will be about 5.75 inches apart and angled at 55 degrees off center (110 degrees between them).
