#1682450 - 06/26/05 01:25 PM
I PROMISE that this is my last post asking about SDC microphones. . .
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umkcprof
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Hi all. . .
I have spent a LOT of time (time I should have been writing on some more scholarly papers, I'm afraid) over the past couple of weeks reading everything on the web about the various SDC mics on the market. As far as I can tell it seems as if there are six worthy "medium to high end" contenders still in production:
Neumann KM-184
AKG C480B
Gefell M300
AT 4051
Schoeps M221B
DPA 4011
Restricted to ONLY this set of mics (no need to muddy my brain further with additional recommendations!), I'd love input comparing these mics to each other in terms of things like transparency, brightness, and suitability for acoustic guitar and piano or in comparison with my only known quantity. . . my pair of SM-81s.
Money isn't an issue with any of these mics for me (I'll be buying a pair), but, obviously I don't want to pay more than I have to (I could be buying more gear!).
Despite my great luck with ebay, I have decided that I'm going to go new this time around (warranty, no fears of drop kicking, etc), so that rules out vintage things like KM-84s, but I am very interested in hearing what you folks have to say about these six mics.
And I shall not post anything asking such things again. Nope, I'm reformed. Next time, I'll be asking about ribbon mics. :-)
Thanks in advance for all the advice.
Steve
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#1682451 - 06/26/05 02:49 PM
Re: I PROMISE that this is my last post asking about SDC microphones. . .
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Philip O'Keefe
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Steve, "never say never". Besides, you're always welcome to ask for more information. 
Now let's look at your mic options:
Neumann KM-184
AKG C480B
Gefell M300
AT 4051
Schoeps M221B
DPA 4011
First of all, let's drop the KM-184 from consideration. Okay, that's just MHO (my humble opinion), but I personally would rather have any of the other mics you listed over the 184's, which I'm personally not that fond of. You might as well keep the SM-81's... The KM-184's, as I've mentioned before, are pretty darned bright and harsh to my ears, and are definitely a step down from the earlier KM-84's... but since 84's are "out", let's discuss your other options.
AKG C480B
Nice mics. AKG small diaphragm condensers also lean towards "bright", and back in the analog days, they were some of my personal favorites. However, they are bright in a different (less harsh) way than the 184's IMO, and would still be a worthy / useful set of mics. However, I think you have some better choices on your list.
Gefell M300
I have not used them, so I can't comment here... but in general, every Gefell mic I've ever used or heard in action was a good sounding / high quality product.
AT 4051
One of the best "budget" sm. dia. condensers on the market. Great bang for the bucks, although the 4041's can get you "most of the way there" for even less. I didn't own either of those two models, but I've used them a lot over the years, and since we started discussing them, I decided to go out and get a pair of 4041's - just to have them around.  And for just under $200 each (SCREAMIN' deal), I think they're a great mic. Expect to pay a bit more for the 4051's - about $500 each, IIRC. Not the most sonically "neutral" mics on the market, but not overly bright either... even though they do have a bit of HF boost up around the 12 kHz range.
Schoeps M221B
DPA 4011
Now we're in a whole 'nuther country.... either of these mics would be a "step above" everything else on the list for the tasks you mentioned. Personally I find the Schoeps to be my favorite between the two, but both of these mics are glorious sounding. One more thing about the Schoeps - the M221 isn't available "new", but the M222 (a modern version) is. One other thing: It's a tube mic... a pretty quiet tube mic, but self noise is going to be a bit more than with the DPA's. Now please note that I'm talking about the M221, and I have NOT used a M222, so I can't make any direct comparisons there. But again, please be seated while I tell you that a M222 is probably going to cost you about $2,000 or so for EACH mic. The DPA's are in a similar price range, maybe a couple of hundred dollars less expensive than the M222, but still close to a couple grand per mic. But IMO, either one of these mics - budget permitting - would be the way to go, with the Schoeps getting the nod for a bit more silky midrange tone, and the DPA's if pure, unadulterated sonic neutrality is the sound you're after.
Considering the moolah you've been dropping lately, and the mics you're now considering, maybe I should have listened to my mother and become a lawyer... or economist.
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#1682452 - 06/26/05 03:16 PM
Re: I PROMISE that this is my last post asking about SDC microphones. . .
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umkcprof
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Well, I've had a good year, Phil. . . I "deserve" it, right?
(Hardly.)
So, the M222 or the DPA 4011 it is. . .
Do you know of anyone would could tell me if the new M222 is comparable to the old M221? I'd hate for them to pull a "Sennheiser/Neumann" on me.
:-)
Oh, and I forgot. . . there is Gefell M200 which has replaceable capsules. . . is that a gimmick or a plus?
Thanks so much, Phil. . . as always.
Steve
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#1682453 - 06/26/05 03:39 PM
Re: I PROMISE that this is my last post asking about SDC microphones. . .
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Philip O'Keefe
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I personally don't know of anyone who has used the M222... you might want to ask Gearmike - maybe he has tried them, but I don't know that he has or not. Next time I talk to him or see him online, I will steer him towards this thread.
As far as extra / exchangeable capsules, that can be nice to have, and I certainly don't consider it to be a "gimmick", but it really depends on your needs. In your situation, I'd be less inclined to consider that a "must have"... a good pair of cardioid condensers is what you'll be using most of, if not all of the time... I can't imagine you'd be using the omni capsules a lot in a small room.
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#1682454 - 06/26/05 04:11 PM
Re: I PROMISE that this is my last post asking about SDC microphones. . .
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umkcprof
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Thanks much, Phil. . .
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#1682455 - 06/26/05 09:37 PM
Re: I PROMISE that this is my last post asking about SDC microphones. . .
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where02190
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I pretty much agree with Phils logic. However I have used both the M222 or the DPA, and yes they are great mics. I have also used the 4051, another great mic. However IMHO the 4041 is the winner of them all. I LOVE the sound of these mics, and given the choices you've given and add them to the picture, they would be my hands down choice for almost any application.
If I had to stay with your choices only, I'd take the DPA. the 4041 has IMHo a more natural sounding low mid range than the 4011, but it is a great mic.
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#1682456 - 06/26/05 11:05 PM
Re: I PROMISE that this is my last post asking about SDC microphones. . .
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(RhythmInMind)
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i picked the 4041's for the price i couldnt get better... http://8thstreet.com has a great pair deal going..
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#1682457 - 06/26/05 11:41 PM
Re: I PROMISE that this is my last post asking about SDC microphones. . .
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umkcprof
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What is this??? I suggest my willingness to TRADE UP. . . and you guys are trying to keep my feet on the ground??? How dare a "cheap" mike sound that good?!?!
You realize that you are going to force me into buying BOTH a pair of DPAs AND a set of the 4041s, don't you?
But you really think that the 4041s are better than the 4051s???
Since when does something cost LESS and sound BETTER?
:-)
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#1682458 - 06/27/05 12:29 AM
Re: I PROMISE that this is my last post asking about SDC microphones. . .
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Philip O'Keefe
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Personally, I'd probably give a slight sonic edge to the 4051's, but for the money, the 4041's are a better deal. You do give up the ability to use interchangeable capsules with the 4041's (alternate capsules are available for the 4051's, while the 4041's are cardioid only), but I don't see that as a major sacrifice in your case. For a bit under four bones, I don't see why you shouldn't get a pair... and maybe the M222's or DPA's too of course.
Yes Steve, you DO deserve it. You can tell your wife I said so... but if she gets ticked off at you, remember... I don't even KNOW you!  
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#1682459 - 06/27/05 05:46 AM
Re: I PROMISE that this is my last post asking about SDC microphones. . .
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where02190
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The 4041's IMHO sound as good as the 4051's, and the 4041's have more output gain.
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#1682460 - 06/27/05 08:24 AM
Re: I PROMISE that this is my last post asking about SDC microphones. . .
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Chris Cavell
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I would actually place a pretty high importance on the interchangeable capsules given the two instruments you've stated you'll most likely be recording with them. The option of omni is hugely important for me.
And honestly, it's SO important to me with B&K/DPA mics that I wouldn't even consider them as a purchase option unless they were omni's, which these aren't.
The schoeps are damn fine mics...and will be 100% true to the source: zero coloration...nothing flattering or detracting done to the sound. Typically these mics require both a good instrument and impeccably good acoustics to capture flattering sounds.
The rest of the mics on the list have their own character, which you may find beneficial or not. I'd leave the neumann out of the list b/c the 184's character is unbelievably unusable imo.
That leaves you with:
AKG C480B
Gefell M300
AT 4051
All of which would do wonderfully. If you insist on cardioid only, I'd go with the gefell...but for those listed instruments, I'd strongly consider options for omni.
B/W the AKG and the AT, I'd lean toward the AKG. I've never been much of an AT fan, although I have been surprisingly impressed with that line of their mics (the 40xx line of small di's).
I know you didn't ask for any more suggestions, but I'd really think about the possibility of the AKG blue line for the additional small di figure 8. If you're involved in classical recording with that piano and guitar, the fig 8 cap could really open up a world of techniques.
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#1682461 - 06/27/05 09:31 AM
Re: I PROMISE that this is my last post asking about SDC microphones. . .
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umkcprof
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Whatever happened to the "good old days" when people just said "I'll take a Neumann"?
And why on earth can't Neumann make the OLD KM-84 like they used to, since everyone seems to dislike the new KM-184? That makes absolutely no sense to me at all. . . unless, of course, they are sitting upon mountains of all KM-84s in a warehouse and are trying to drive up the price on those!
I find the whole thing very interesting, to say the least. And coming from the center of the country (and not the center of the world), I'm forced to pick all of your brains rather than use my own ears.
Thanks all!
Steve
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#1682462 - 06/27/05 09:50 AM
Re: I PROMISE that this is my last post asking about SDC microphones. . .
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Chris Cavell
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Steve, it's the same reason AKG can't make(and won't even try, heck, they won't even service the original) a recreation of the original C12 cap.
Capsule design and manufacturing is a dying art, and as plants attempt to automate the production process, much of the old sound that resulted from the craft, is lost in an effort to keep up with increasing demand and the "bottom line". Not to mention that most of the original craftsman that contributed to such gems are now pushing up daisies...before they ever had a chance to pass on their art to another generation.
Many today "in the know" don't consider Neumann the real Neumann anymore. That title belongs to Gefell. They still make capsules by hand...heck, they still make the original PVC cap used in the 47's that have given Neumann the legendary status they enjoy today. (AAMOF, the only REAL way to refurb a dead capsule in a 47 and retain the true sonic character is to purchase and cannibalize a new Gefell that uses the same capsule.)
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#1682463 - 06/27/05 01:19 PM
Re: I PROMISE that this is my last post asking about SDC microphones. . .
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umkcprof
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Yes. . . mass production has its sad sides, as well. (On the other hand, that 36" TV for $400 is a real benefit.)
I've heard more than one person tell me now that the Gefell's are the REAL Neumanns. . . but why does Gefell get all the credit? :-)
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#1682464 - 06/27/05 03:50 PM
Re: I PROMISE that this is my last post asking about SDC microphones. . .
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Chris Cavell
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In 1943 (iirc), Georg Neumann moved most of the manufacturing and development of the Neumann line to a little town called Gefell under a new business whose sole existance was for the R&D and production of Neumann microphones (this was a smart idea at the time given the economic and political turbulence in the original location, Berlin). A few years later, the original business in Berlin was shut down, followed by the factory. Another few years later, it was reopened. The two companies worked in tandem, and for the most part nearly all the production, development, inventing, and manufacturing took place in the Gefell plant. The Berlin plant became little more than a service center. A few decades later, the berlin wall went up, and the two companies had to split. This pretty much marks the end of Neumann Berlin's legendary quality and manufacturing processes. The Gefell factory never changed...continued the tradition and manufacturing they had been doing when the two companies were joined at the hip.
The berlin wall fell. The Berlin company went kaput, and Sennheiser gobbled them up...but the little plant in Gefell kept on doing what they'd always done.
A few years later, Georg Neumann's survivors reclaimed (repurchased) the company located in Gefell. Currently, Gefell is owned (in part) by the Neumann family, run and operated in the same tradition as it was in the 40's when it was created by Georg Neumann himself.
So, "why do people give Gefell all the credit?", b/c when they do, they're giving the old Neumann the credit. The Gefell plant never deviated from their original practices wrt microphone design and construction put in place by Georg and his head engineers when the plant was founded.
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#1682465 - 06/27/05 04:59 PM
Re: I PROMISE that this is my last post asking about SDC microphones. . .
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Philip O'Keefe
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I would actually place a pretty high importance on the interchangeable capsules given the two instruments you've stated you'll most likely be recording with them. The option of omni is hugely important for me.
I like interchangeable capsules, and generally I might be inclined to agree with you on this, but Steve has the room from Hades; a 10' cube... in a room like that, even though it's been treated acoustically about as well as you could hope for, omnis are not really a great idea IMO.
Also, let's remember he's also got a Manley Gold Reference multipattern and a Soundelux iFET7... that opens up M-S mic techniques, and with a good set of cardioid sm. dia. condensers, he can also do XY, ORTF and spaced pair stereo mic'ing. The only thing he gives up is spaced omni and Blumlein pairs, and IMO, neither one of those is really going to be that useful in a cube shaped room, due to the fact that both of those techniques are going to capture a lot of the room sound, which IMO, Steve should try to avoid.
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#1682466 - 06/27/05 05:02 PM
Re: I PROMISE that this is my last post asking about SDC microphones. . .
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Philip O'Keefe
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BTW, excellent job on the Neumann / Gefell history report Chris. 
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#1682467 - 06/27/05 05:26 PM
Re: I PROMISE that this is my last post asking about SDC microphones. . .
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Philip O'Keefe
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And why on earth can't Neumann make the OLD KM-84 like they used to, since everyone seems to dislike the new KM-184? That makes absolutely no sense to me at all. . .
I really don't know to be honest with you Steve. The 184 uses the exact same capsule as the old KM84, so that's not it. The KM84 is a transformer balanced mic, while the newer KM184 is a transformerless mic, and that means they don't have the cost of the transformers added to the bottom line production cost... so I imagine that factored into the equation. Heck, you're the economist...
The 184 also "specs out better on paper," with lower self noise, better maximum SPL handling capability (of no use to you on the sources you mentioned) and better dynamic range. The frequency response is also somewhat different, with the KM184 having a presence peak in the highs (centered at around 9 kHz) that the KM84 didn't have... it seems that a lot of people today tend to favor brighter mics, for whatever reason... personally, I am less inclined to like that, but YMMV... anyway, just because something LOOKS better on paper doesn't mean that it always sounds better in actual use, and the KM84 vs KM184 comparison is, IMO, a excellent example of that. But other than the tranny, I don't see any financial reason why they couldn't still be building the KM84 at a price point that wasn't that much higher than the price of the KM184's. I think the "on paper specs" and the marketing probably have something to do with the decision, but as I said, you're the economist, and you could probably teach me a thing or three about what goes into those sorts of decisions.
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#1682468 - 06/27/05 06:01 PM
Re: I PROMISE that this is my last post asking about SDC microphones. . .
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Rob Campbell
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I know you asked for comments on the mics in your list only, but I feel I would be remiss if I didn't throw this into the "mix", as it were... I recently purchased the Peluso CEMCS stereo matched pair with all of the available capsules. They have proven to be WONDERFULL! I believe they are loosely based on the Shoeps mics. I payed $1300.00 and change for everything,
http://www.pelusomicrophonelab.com/CEMC6SK.html
Well worth looking into!
Rob
PS, you can hear them prominetly on a collaboration I did recently with a couple friends. Click on the little speaker icon at the top of the page to stream.
Moderator Edit: Here's the link:
Click me
The acoustic guitar.
PPS Vocals are the Soundelux ifet7
Moderator note: Edited to fix page width / formatting )
(Sorry Phil, and thank you!)
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#1682469 - 06/27/05 07:15 PM
Re: I PROMISE that this is my last post asking about SDC microphones. . .
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Chris Cavell
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Ahhh...I see now...
Sorry, wasn't quite familiar with Steve's room issues...and in that case, both the schoeps and DPA's would most definitely be out of the question for me. They'd be almost too true and possibly overemphasize what little room sound they managed to pick up in cardioid.
I still hate the 184's (which in addition to the lack of transformer, have a fet impedance converter with really poor headroom by today's standards).
I think any of the others would be fantastic choices. The peluso's Rob mentioned I can't comment on directly, but I've heard nothing but great things about them from people who's opinion I find often parallels mine.
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#1682470 - 06/28/05 05:07 PM
Re: I PROMISE that this is my last post asking about SDC microphones. . .
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Sir Basil
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Hrm... I've been poking around and I don't see the AT 4041s for sale. Are any 4040 series good for a multitude of purposes, from micing acoustics to vocals? And what about guitar amps or Leslies?
I'm going to try the dreaded Search again because I've just been handed a check to buy some studio gear and need to get some serious advice on budget mics myself. So no Geffels for a year or two.
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#1682471 - 06/28/05 05:43 PM
Re: I PROMISE that this is my last post asking about SDC microphones. . .
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Philip O'Keefe
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Hey Basil, check out this thread for info on the screamin' 4041 deal.
As far as the 4040's go, I have not really used those LD condensers, so I can't comment... but IIRC, Lynn Fuston likes them a lot - especially as drum overheads.
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#1682472 - 06/28/05 06:02 PM
Re: I PROMISE that this is my last post asking about SDC microphones. . .
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Sir Basil
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Phil, I must appologize, home sick today and window shopping can make the brain turn to Jello Instant.
Small Diaphragm Condensers... so of course I look at the lists of large diaphragm vocal condensers! ;P
By the way, did I mention that I really HATE Search? Still poking...
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#1682473 - 06/28/05 11:06 PM
Re: I PROMISE that this is my last post asking about SDC microphones. . .
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umkcprof
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Great comments, gentlemen!
For those of you who are interested, I think I'm going to try a "carpet bombing" strategy on the SDCs. It looks at THIS POINT (but, be forewarned, like electronics specifications, all my decisions are subject to change on a whim and without prior notice) like I'm going this way:
1. A pair of Gefell M300s.
2. A pair of DPA 4006s (SDC omnis in case I want to move my rig to a great sounding room and/or stage and use a 9 foot grand)
3. One Schoeps M222 (unfortunately not until Christmas) for individual spot work on my acoustic or. . . who knows?
My arm can still be twisted, but that's the story for the time being. . . unfortunately, two M222s with two capsules (one each) will run about $6000, and that is some serious cash for this guy.
Again, thanks for all of your help!!!
BTW, that Manley Gold REALLY sounds great. . . and, on vocals, I am really loving the Soundelux ifet7 (on "V," of course).
Steve. . .
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#1682474 - 07/01/05 09:45 AM
Re: I PROMISE that this is my last post asking about SDC microphones. . .
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jnorman
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i have owned all of the mics listed, except i had schoeps cmc64s instead of the 221s. a friend tried a pair of the 221s from tracy korby, but wasnt overly impressed with them. i never liked the km184s very much, though they were useable off axis. they were good close mics for acoustic guitar where you want a bit of brightness. the gefell m300s were a tad better than the 184s IMO, with a bit more oomph in the lower mids. the schoeps cmc64s were a wonderful main pair for diffuse field stereo recordings in a nice venue, but were too boomy for me as close mics in the studio. the AT4051s are pretty nice, though with a bit of upper mid lift, and work well on lots of pianos and acoutic guitars - a little smoother than the km184s. the DPA 4011s are very neutral and can be used on literally anything, and owrk nearly as well in the diffuse field as in near filed applications. i just recorded a 7'4" bosendorfer grand with them. the AKG c480/ck61s are pretty much my favorite mics at this point, and are nearly interchangebale with the DPA 4011s - very neutral, and can be used on anything. BTW, i also quite like the little DPA 4061s for lots of things, and they are very affordable.
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jnorman
sunridge studios
salem, oregon
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