#1682432 - 06/26/05 12:38 PM
Miking a guitar cab... with only a dynamic mic???
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gaotu
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Registered: 01/10/04
Posts: 211
Loc: Indianapolis
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I constantly read about sessions where the guitar cabs are miked with a dynamic mic only. Although I don't necessarily remember listening to any of these specific ones as finished products (although I'm sure I have listened to recordings such as this many times), I must say that I haven't been able to achieve a satisfactory sound with only a dynamic.
As of right now, the bands I'm getting in my studio are mostly metal or of a similar style of music, which means a lot of heavy and soaring distortion (you know what I mean). I just don't feel like I can get a good distortion sound with a dynamic alone. I do plan on recording bands of other styles (esp. since metal is not my favorite - I'm more into the lighter side of things), so I'm wondering about all of your experiences with guitar cab micing. What works when? I know the sound that is to be achieved and the idea of how the arrangement/mix will go play into this, so please respond with that in mind too.
What I've been using:
I genereally record with a LD Cond, a SD Cond and a Dynamic all at the same time. I find that this works for me because I can mix any amount of the 3 mics in to get a pretty drastic change in the sound and timbre of the guitar and almost without ever using any EQ. What I've noticed is that the LD gives a very cutting upper edge to the guitar with some very deep lows that aren't as obvious, but has no meat in the middle (kind of scooped sounding). The SD creates what I would describe as the most realistic playback sound - it sounds the most like what the guitar cab actually sounds like when listening to it in person. The SD is punchy, warm, and the most powerful in the average playing range of the guitar. The Dynamic, although similar to the SD, seems a little weaker - perhaps I should say, more dynamic of a sound and not as compressed-seeming. It also seems to accentuate the distortion of the guitar a bit too... more fuzzy.
My normal mic placement is:
LD and Dynamic as close as possible. The LD usually on the cone, the Dynamic usually on the center direct or angled. The SD, usually a bit back, applying the 3:1 rule. (I don't believe phase is ever a problem with my setup, I'm careful to avoid that.)
Mic types:
I have only one type of SD (Oktava 012). For dynamics I have a SM57, Sennheiser 421, and a e609. My 2 LD's sound pretty much the same on guitar(one's a 4033 and the other a Manley/Langevine).
Two other questions: What's the biggest distance you'd mic a cab with using a dynamic?
Do you ever use a ribbon on a distorted guitar?
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#1682433 - 06/26/05 06:17 PM
Re: Miking a guitar cab... with only a dynamic mic???
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where02190
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For rock guitar I'll typically use either a combination of 57/609 with both mics as close to the same vertical alignment as possible and at the edge of the cone, usually one on top of the other, or a 609/NTK combo, using the same positioning. In post, I will time align the two tracks, which I find to make a massive difference in tonal quality, even if it is only a ms.
_________________________
Hope this is helpful. NP Recording Studios Analog approach to digital recording.
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#1682434 - 06/27/05 03:25 PM
Re: Miking a guitar cab... with only a dynamic mic???
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Lee Knight
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Registered: 10/19/01
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Loc: Encinitas,CA,UNITED STATES
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I know what you mean about "only" a dynamic. If I do it, I always seem to add something post to compensate.
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#1682435 - 06/27/05 06:24 PM
Re: Miking a guitar cab... with only a dynamic mic???
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Philip O'Keefe
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Wow, guitar amp mic technique... the possibilities are infinite...  
I use a wide variety of different techniques on guitar amps. A single cardioid dynamic placed close in is one fairly common technique, with the Shure SM57 being frequently used in that application, but I also use other dynamics - including the Audix i5 and D2, the E/V RE20, the Sennheiser e609.
Placement matters.  Placing the mic so that it is aimed directly at the center of the speaker's center dust cap will result in a brighter tone, and moving it outwards, towards the "edge" of the speaker will result in a tone with less brightness. Closer in will result in a bassier tone (due to proximity effect bass boosting), while moving it back to about a 12" distance will eliminate any proxmity boost. Sometimes I'll move the mic out towards the edge of the speaker, but angle in inwards towards the center dust cap... this frequently will give a more balanced tone, and the angle of sound wave incidence is less likely to be blasting into the mic capsule directly on axis, which can also be beneficial IMO.
Okay, that's one technique... and occasionally I'll substitute a AKG C414EB in place of the dynamic, or in addition to the dynamic, but with a similar "close in" placement. If the amp is loud, you might need to use the pad switch on the 414.
Sometimes I'll use the dynamic as described above, but with a condenser "out front" at a bit greater distance - depending on the room, it might be a few feet, or it might be several feet. I might aim that distant condenser towards the amp, or I might even aim it at a reflective surface away from the amp. I might time align the two mics (nudging to compensate for the speed of sound vs mic position distance), but then again, I might not... if that distant mic is being used to get a bit more room flavor, the distant placement and the resulting delay can be thought of as a built in "reverb predelay"... of course, you have to watch for phase issues and either reposition the distant mic or hit the phase invert switch as needed. I would normally track each mic to a seperate track, so that I could adjust the relative balance of close vs distant mics at mixdown, as well as having the option to time align or not, depending on what I was going for and how it worked in context.
I also am a big fan of ribbon mics on guitar cabinets. A Royer, Beyer or AEA ribbon placed as described for the dynamic mic (see above) can sometimes be TOO heavy on the bass... especially if the ribbon mic is a bi-directional model... figure 8 mics have the largest amount of proximity effect boost, and so you have to be aware of that when placing them in really close. Also, ribbons can be pretty fragile, so you have to take wind blast from the amp into consideration and use caution with your placement and acoustical sound levels when using a ribbon mic up close on a guitar cabinet. For those reasons, I tend to move my ribbon mics out a bit sometimes - about a foot or so... although if I'm using a fairly robust cardioid or hypercardioid ribbon mic (such as the Beyer M160), I might move in closer.
I've mic'ed guitar amps with all sorts of wacky mics, techniques and combinations of approaches... sticking mics into cardboard tubes and aiming those towards the amp, putting a PZM on the control room glass, sticking a large diaphragm dynamic on the back side of an open backed combo amp, with a small diaphragm dynamic up in front and a distant condenser out in the room... IOW, IMO, anything goes. As long as you dig how it sounds and it's appropriate for the song of course.
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#1682436 - 06/27/05 08:49 PM
Re: Miking a guitar cab... with only a dynamic mic???
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Lz12ax7
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Registered: 04/13/05
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My thing for a heavy metal sound is a combo of a Royer R-122 placed just on the outer edge on the speakers dust cap and in very close.
I'll use a 57 exactly as Philip mentioned. On the outside edge of the speaker pointing up at the cone. I'll use a mic back about three feet pointing at the cab, Usually a large diaphram Condenser. I've used AKG 414's for this too.
If You are going to be doing primarily Heavy Metal/Hard Rock bands do yourself a favor and get a Royer R-121 or better yet the active version R-122. You'll love this microphone. For metal work it shines. Check out Royers website. There are sound bites as well as placement techniques there.
peace-ONE
Lz:)
_________________________
If it sounds good, it is good!
Gear is cool but,the player,the source, the room and the microphone placement are the magic!
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#1682437 - 06/28/05 01:27 AM
Re: Miking a guitar cab... with only a dynamic mic???
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gaotu
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Registered: 01/10/04
Posts: 211
Loc: Indianapolis
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Yea... I hear you on the Royer...my pocket book says no right now though. I did order some Nady ribbons and I do have a beyerdynamic m260 (although its in repair now...or disrepair should I say).
Thanks for the tips. These will help a lot.
So, no one uses a SD on the guitar cab?
Where, I no what you mean about the nudging. I've tried that and will continue to. It's amazing how much of a tonal difference a few ms's can make.
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#1682438 - 06/28/05 02:19 AM
Re: Miking a guitar cab... with only a dynamic mic???
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d gauss
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i didn't read through all the above so forgive me if i step on what's already been mentioned....
there's pages and pages, and years and years of different ways to mic a guitar amp. but... few will argue that a sm57 and a good player will give usable results...
-d. gauss
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#1682439 - 06/28/05 03:21 AM
Re: Miking a guitar cab... with only a dynamic mic???
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MarkD
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Registered: 03/03/04
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Loc: Australia
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This is the tried and true method for legendary Australian engineer/producer Mark Opitz. (AC/DC, INXS, Angles etc. etc.) http://hem.passagen.se/honga/database/o/opitzmark.html
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#1682440 - 06/28/05 10:57 AM
Re: Miking a guitar cab... with only a dynamic mic???
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gaotu
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Loc: Indianapolis
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Hmm... that's interesting. XY with a LD and a sm57. Why that mic formation? It's not even a stereo amp (right?).
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#1682441 - 06/28/05 01:20 PM
Re: Miking a guitar cab... with only a dynamic mic???
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Sean Eldon
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Registered: 04/19/04
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Loc: Long Island
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it doesn't matter if the amp only has one speaker. you can still use two mics, and lots of people do. i use 2 mics on acoustic guitars, which aren't stereo, and then i use a room mic. there's only one guitar, but i used three mics to get a better blended sound
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#1682442 - 06/28/05 05:22 PM
Re: Miking a guitar cab... with only a dynamic mic???
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Philip O'Keefe
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Registered: 12/17/00
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Look closer folks...
Here's a hint....
Take a really close look at that C414EB...
It's not even plugged in! 
Maybe the 414 is for show?
Seriously, I am sure that was just the way it was for the photo... and that if he was going to use it, he'd obviously have it plugged in. But yes, two mics on a single speaker is not uncommon. Two of my three personal guitar amps are single speaker combos, and I mic them with multiple mics as often as not.
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#1682443 - 06/28/05 05:24 PM
Re: Miking a guitar cab... with only a dynamic mic???
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Philip O'Keefe
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BTW Mark - cool picture. Thanks for posting it. 
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#1682444 - 06/28/05 05:29 PM
Re: Miking a guitar cab... with only a dynamic mic???
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MarkD
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No probs Phil.
If I can sweet-talk the wife into typing up the article, I'll post it........ it's quite interesting.
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#1682445 - 06/28/05 05:35 PM
Re: Miking a guitar cab... with only a dynamic mic???
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Philip O'Keefe
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Maybe have her type up only the "interesting bits" - I'd be very cautious about reproducing and posting the entire article without permission of the publisher - copyright concerns and all of that...
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#1682446 - 06/28/05 08:16 PM
Re: Miking a guitar cab... with only a dynamic mic???
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MarkD
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LOL yeah.... I was intending to give the Mag and author due credit.... I'll see what sort of mood the wife is in
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#1682447 - 06/28/05 09:10 PM
Re: Miking a guitar cab... with only a dynamic mic???
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miroslav
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I've never gotten exactly the sound I'm hearing, when I use only a 57 or a 609...
...but, I've been able to "adjust" better to the 57 than the 609.
The 609 just comes off too "dark" if I set the guitar/amp the way I like it in the room...
...but I have used the 609 with success if the guitar/amp was a bit to harsh/edgy.
Anyway...for a really good guitar sound...a 57 up close and just about any condenser set back from about 1' to 10'...depending on how much room/depth you want...will get you there.
The combination of the dynamic and condenser will give you all kands of guitar sounds...just move 'em around a bit.
If you record each mic to a seprate track...you can have even more possibilities for the guitar sound when you mix.
_________________________
miroslav - miroslavmusic.com"Just because it happened to you, it doesn't mean it's important."
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#1682448 - 06/28/05 09:46 PM
Re: Miking a guitar cab... with only a dynamic mic???
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Sir Basil
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Experimenting is really a lot of fun. George Martin showed us where the door is, and the results can be eye opening and satisfying.
I recall that an engineer recording - I hope I have the band right - Aerosmith had the drummer set up in a large space, maybe even a warehouse, and put a pair of mics in trash cans set some distance away. It ended up on the album.
Experimenting like that also gives you some mystique too. "How did you get that sound?" When your friends have some time, why not play mad scientist and see what results you get?
When I get some time in the fall, and when I get the studio situation ironed out, I intend to spend a lot more time in here picking brains.
_________________________
This keyboard solo has obviously been tampered with!
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#1682449 - 07/02/05 03:46 PM
Re: Miking a guitar cab... with only a dynamic mic???
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Philip O'Keefe
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Experimenting like that also gives you some mystique too. "How did you get that sound?" When your friends have some time, why not play mad scientist and see what results you get?
True... and I'm all for experimenting and getting wacky / different / cool tones... but there isn't much mystique to it when anyone can drop in here and ask me what I did and (usually) get a response.
When I get some time in the fall, and when I get the studio situation ironed out, I intend to spend a lot more time in here picking brains.
Any time Basil... it's good to have you joining us over here. 
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