#1682400 - 06/24/05 07:16 PM
Pre-Production - Who Does It and How Do You Do It?
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gaotu
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Registered: 01/10/04
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Loc: Indianapolis
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I've been fortunate enough to land the business of a very good and highly popular local indie rock band. They're superb arrangers/writers and can play very well too! I'm excited about this, as this is my first big break since opening my studio and I think that this could really help put my studio on the map in my town (Indianapolis).
Since this is my first big break, I'm wanting to go all out to make this the best recording I can possibly do at this point in time. I'm going to be doing some pre-production for this album, which is something I've never done before. I"m going to record them playing live for starters (which is how they've recorded before anyway).
I was hoping to get some pointers from the experienced on this matter. I'd like to know:
How much does a preproduction recording help when it comes to time to do the real tracking?
What should I be trying to figure out from the pre-recording?
Is a pre-recording ever a useless venture for a good band?
What might I be overlooking in the preproduction process? Is there more to it than just going over the pre-recording?
As for now, my plans are to do the live recording and get together with the band to go over it, so that (1) they can see what their songs sound like recorded, and (2) so that I know what I'm going to be recording before I get them in the studio so that I can have a better prepared plan for recording this band and each of the songs. I'm hoping to get production ideas for each of the songs, so that they don't all come out sounding the same. I'd like to give each song, or atleast some of the songs, a character of their own.
Thus far with my studio, I've had some difficulty getting the information I want out of bands about their songs, arrangement, and style. It seems like it would be a lot easier for me if I had recordings of their material beforehand. Instead of using a detailed plan for recording bands, I've just had to record on the fly, using the techniques I think would be the best for them, rather than what I KNOW would be the best... sometimes covering my ass along the way to make sure I had enough takes, types of mics, etc. that I would have some choices during mixdown.
Now it's time to get busy!
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#1682401 - 06/24/05 07:27 PM
Re: Pre-Production - Who Does It and How Do You Do It?
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Sean Eldon
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Registered: 04/19/04
Posts: 462
Loc: Long Island
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Pre-production is the most fun and experimental part of recording. It's where you get to decide which mics to use, which guitars to use, fix arrangements or off-sounding parts, and really get the songs and the RECORDINGS to be the strongest when they are "put onto tape".
Many bands get worried that pre-production will cause them to go over budget, but it is your duty to convince them that it's going to make the recording of the actual album a lot smoother. Rather than fooling with techniques and equipment that isn't going to work out when the clock is REALLY ticking, get it right in practice. I usually give discounted rates for pre-production, and include something like a free expert drum tuning or something of that nature so that the band doesn't feel uncomfortable with the whole situation.
Best of luck. Have fun. Post it when you're done.
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#1682402 - 06/24/05 08:09 PM
Re: Pre-Production - Who Does It and How Do You Do It?
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Philip O'Keefe
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Loc: Riverside,CA,UNITED STATES
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I just started pre-production on a new album. I normally start by getting rough recordings of ALL of the band's songs first, and start listening, and we start talking about which songs work well together for the album. I then like to attend some rehersals, and listen for any "rough spots" insofar as the individual parts, the arrangement, etc. I also check out their gear and consider what else (if anything) we may need to purchase or rent for the actual sessions. I take notes, and I start thinking about parts that might be superfluous or that we might want to add... we work out budgets and time schedules, etc. etc.
Probably THE single most important element of pre-production IMO, is knowing exactly what you want to accomplish in advance and making sure everyone knows what they need to do and what is expected of them, and that they have ALL THEIR PARTS DOWN COLD before you ever walk into the studio. 
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#1682403 - 06/24/05 08:24 PM
Re: Pre-Production - Who Does It and How Do You Do It?
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gaotu
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Loc: Indianapolis
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Phil, are you saying that that is what you should accomplish with pre-production phase, or that is what should be accomplished before even going into the pre-production phase?
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#1682404 - 06/24/05 08:38 PM
Re: Pre-Production - Who Does It and How Do You Do It?
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Philip O'Keefe
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I consider everything that I listed as being part of the pre-production phase. 
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#1682405 - 06/24/05 10:38 PM
Re: Pre-Production - Who Does It and How Do You Do It?
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miroslav
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For me...
...pre-production is everything that comes before a song starts to gel.
If I am working with someone else, it will involve some jamming, talking about styles, listening to finished cuts, discussing arrangements, ideas, goals and desires.
I honestly don’t get too deep into any discussions about equipment…what to use and/or how to use it. I only think about that on-the-fly as the tracking takes place. I just don’t want to spend time on that, because it can kill the mood of the music…discussing gear and techniques.
Besides…I think anything goes…you use what you have…what you grab…and then adjust with it. It’s not supposed to be a laboratory procedure!!! 
Then...when it gets to the tracking phase...unless some serious and specific decisions were already made...the first few tracks might still be considered pre-production too. Because it is during those first few tracks when things usually become more defined…so I may try a few things…erase…start over…switch directions…whatever.
Then, once that happens...once the gelling begins…pre-production ends...
.,.and we are now in full production mode.
When I work alone...it's similar, except I don't do any discussing, though sometimes I may think out loud.
Also, I move slower when I work alone...because I'm usually trying to give the song all the room and time it needs to find it's groove...it's direction.
That usually happens when I get going on the rhythm tracks...after the drums and bass are done, and I start to lay down the rhythm guitars and maybe some keys.
That is when I usually find the groove of the song.
After that...the leads and “sweeteners” tend to come easily.
Sometimes I can spend weeks on pre-production shit...but it's usually while I'm already tracking one song...and maybe working up a mix for another...
...and during that time, I will also be doing pre-production for the next one in line.
I seem to have started this new working habit, where I have 3-4 songs, all at different phases of development.
In the past...I use to just work one from start to finish, before I started anything else.
I am enjoying this new way of working...several songs at the same time, in different phases of development…though it probably takes more time doing it this way...but I don't mind...it's more enjoyable this way.
Oh...and I'm not ever really looking at the clock...which may not be something you can do, if you are getting paid by the clock…in which case you need to move quicker through the productions.
_________________________
miroslav - miroslavmusic.com"Just because it happened to you, it doesn't mean it's important."
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#1682406 - 06/24/05 10:44 PM
Re: Pre-Production - Who Does It and How Do You Do It?
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miroslav
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I guess I can simplify what I just said in the last post, by telling you that until you sense the vibe of the song/session...
...you should consider yourself still in the pre-production phase.
And...if you are asking yourself if you feel any vibe...
...then you probably don't...
...so keep kicking things around until you do...otherwise, you will start tracking and it will go flat on you.
(Though there have been some cases where a song finally came to life...at the last minute,the last phase...but that's a gamble.)
_________________________
miroslav - miroslavmusic.com"Just because it happened to you, it doesn't mean it's important."
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#1682407 - 06/24/05 10:47 PM
Re: Pre-Production - Who Does It and How Do You Do It?
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gaotu
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Loc: Indianapolis
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Yea, unfortunately I am charging by the hour... generally, however with this group I have more of a project cost instead, but in the future I don't see that happening too often.. Thanks for the tips thus far.
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#1682408 - 06/24/05 10:57 PM
Re: Pre-Production - Who Does It and How Do You Do It?
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where02190
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Registered: 11/06/01
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Loc: Weymouth, Ma. USA
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I'm pretty much with Phil's mindset, using preproduction time to discuss and experiement with arrangements, work on weak points in both musicianship and material, and choose amonst the available material the best for CD content. Also, like Phil, I get to see what gear the band is currently using, make suggestions for studio substitutes or additions, and in general get to know and build trust with the aritsts.
The trust foundation building is IMHO the most important part of preproduction as an engineer/producer.
_________________________
Hope this is helpful. NP Recording Studios Analog approach to digital recording.
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#1682409 - 06/24/05 11:12 PM
Re: Pre-Production - Who Does It and How Do You Do It?
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miroslav
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Well, the artists are responsible for doing their share of pre-production before they ever get to you.
If they come to you prepared...then as soon as you hear them play, and go over some ideas/goals...
...you should be ready to fly.
THEY should already have a handle on the vibe! 
For me it's a bit different, because I don't get into just engineering these days. I'm always involved with many aspects of any recording session...so I really need to also feel/find the vibe before I can proceed...
...even if it takes awhile.
I'm sure I would work differently if I was working "for hire" and by the clock.
Tomorrow afternoon, I’m going to be recording drums for a couple of songs I have going at different phases of production.
I've already done pre-production on one song...and have the final bass, rhythm guitars and keys, already recorded.
The other song...I have yet to do all the pre-production.
But, my drummer has only about 2-3 hours to give me tomorrow...so...I'm going to do some basic pre-production on the second song in the morning.
I'll just work out the structure, and lay down a couple of scratch tracks.
When my drummer comes over...first I'll get him to do the drums for the almost-finished song...
…then, we'll do the second one. That way...I'll have the drums done and I can continue with some more pre-production it before I decide how to record the rest of the tracks.
If I decide to go in some totally different direction on that second song...then we'll just redo the drums at another time...
...but I can usually get the structure of a song pretty quickly.
And with that set, and a couple of scratch tracks...the drums can be recorded.
Then I can still take some time to experiment with the other instruments before I commit to the production phase.
In the mean time…on the first song for tomorrow…once I get his drums for it…the song only needs the final vocals, and it will be ready for mixing.
_________________________
miroslav - miroslavmusic.com"Just because it happened to you, it doesn't mean it's important."
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#1682410 - 06/30/05 03:32 PM
Re: Pre-Production - Who Does It and How Do You Do It?
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Lee Knight
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Registered: 10/19/01
Posts: 1077
Loc: Encinitas,CA,UNITED STATES
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Nice thread... and timely for me as I've just ventured into the world of producing. I asked for a CD of a rehearsal that included all the tune prospects. Then I listened, and listened, and listened again.
Then I attended a rehearsal to address the things I needed to. Then we tracked the basics a couple of days later.
I'll watch their live show again this weekend and take notes. We meet and discuss...
...then track overdubs.
That's the way it's gone for me and SCARAMANGA!
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#1682411 - 06/30/05 04:58 PM
Re: Pre-Production - Who Does It and How Do You Do It?
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offramp
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Registered: 10/31/00
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Loc: Golden, CO.
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Hey, gaotu...who's the band?
_________________________
I've upped my standards; now, up yours.
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#1682412 - 06/30/05 09:58 PM
Re: Pre-Production - Who Does It and How Do You Do It?
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gaotu
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Registered: 01/10/04
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Loc: Indianapolis
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Offramp: America Owns The Moon... why? Think you might of heard of them. Here's there site:
America Owns The Moon
There's old music on there.
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#1682413 - 06/30/05 11:31 PM
Re: Pre-Production - Who Does It and How Do You Do It?
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offramp
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WARNING: Temporary thread hijack.
1) The Melody Inn has no business having live bands. At least, not 'the Mel' I knew and sautee'd myself in in college. That's one of those places best left in the trad dive bar style.
God help us if the Red Key ever falls like that.
2) I can't even imagine what the Patio looks like these days. Last time I was in it--oh, 9 years ago?--it was a shadow of its former self. I did, however, find my all-time favorite RNR grafitti there, in the "dressing room" (read: closet)...
"My cock is your sisters' program".
3) Their website is excrutiatingly slow to load; their front page took about four minutes, and that's with a 49333 dialup. They need a better web designer.
4) One of their reviewers--Jim Kuzckowski--is a former employee of mine form the old Cafe' Espresso on Broad Ripple Avenue (it is--or was--some dumb sports bar, now)...right next door (sorta) from the Alley Cat (hopefully still in bidness. God, that place was a lifesaver to so many without lives). He used the term "post-punk" in earnest. Depressing.
What's weird is, he--and a couple of other employees--crossed my mind about a week ago; sort of one of those "Whatever happened to...?" things.
5) Where is the "Secret Location"?
6) I don't recognize the photo location. ? downtown is it?
Looks like a fun band. Weird to think they were probably all in grade school while I was at Butler.
What kind of gigs are they doing, and where? Crowds good? Seems like it's been a loooonnnnggg time since Indy had a band that really caused a buzz around town.
And btw: What side of town are you on?
_________________________
I've upped my standards; now, up yours.
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#1682414 - 06/30/05 11:59 PM
Re: Pre-Production - Who Does It and How Do You Do It?
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d gauss
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Registered: 02/15/01
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Loc: Somewhere in the Swamps of Jer...
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i think pre-production varies from band to band, style to style, etc.
first and foremost are YOU producing the band or just recording them? if yer not the producer, it's a moot point.
rather than a rehearsal, the simplest and often best thing to do is see the band at a gig. at least you'll have an idea of what they're about, in their element.
-d. gauss
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#1682415 - 07/01/05 12:47 AM
Re: Pre-Production - Who Does It and How Do You Do It?
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gaotu
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Registered: 01/10/04
Posts: 211
Loc: Indianapolis
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Offramp: You're from Indy or you went to school here?
Let me comment on your comments:
The Melody Inn is actually a very cool place now. It was bought by new owners about 3 years ago I think and they have the most eclectic shows in town. I really dig the place. Sure, it's small and the space isn't the best for live bands, but if its packed, which is often is (and is quant because of it), it does sound pretty decent.
The Patio is okay, but it doesn't support the local scene too much. There's a handful of decent mid-sized acts (signed bands with some airplay) that play there while on tour.
The Espresso Bar is long gone I'm afraid, but the Alley Cat is happening as ever.
The photo shot is in the parking lot of the "Orange Building" where they, and many others, practice (SW downtown).
The "Secret Location" is a huge historic house (Broadway and 25th) where a lot of shows are done... actually something started by my wife when she lived there about 8 years ago! The tradition has lived on although the place has changed hands many times.
I live in Fountain Square (ugh...) but only for 2 more weeks. We just bought a house in Beech Grove where my studio will be.
Yea. There's been a few bands that have caused a buzz, but not many really. America Owns the Moon has, but because of a lack of a real CD, they're really hurting themselves. Shadeland is a newer band really getting some attention, mostly because of the their fairly good new CD. There's Seven Degrees from Center, who I believe have been signed and are moving to Cali soon (last year's Battle of the BAnd's winners). Other than that, there's not much hope here... Some good punk bands, and emo bands. Also some good hardcore bands, but they never make it anyway.
The band is a fav at the Mel and with the Mel's crowd, where ever they may be. They do draw pretty decently, and most of the drinking-age scenesters know and like them.
As for their site... I have cable and it loads quickly for me, as quick as any other site.
How old are you? When did you move away?
Gauss: I hope to be more of a co-producer with the band and/or the main songwriter. We're going to put our heads together on this one, and I'll lead them with the technical know-how.
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