#1682348 - 06/23/05 11:34 AM
Re: Peak Control on the full mix
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kylen
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Originally posted by alanfc:
hi,
I was wondering how you all manipulate your peaks on the stereo full mix file?
how they do it - I'm just guessing...I usually use compressors and limiters for that in my home studio - - with intelligent settings.
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#1682349 - 06/23/05 12:00 PM
Re: Peak Control on the full mix
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alanfc
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Originally posted by kylen: Originally posted by alanfc:
hi,
I was wondering how you all manipulate your peaks on the stereo full mix file?
how they do it - I'm just guessing...I usually use compressors and limiters for that in my home studio - - with intelligent settings.
maybe I'm looking at this too small. Indeed my peaks are all hitting in my loud passages only. I keep track of the level of the soft parts like verses then the big chorus hits, (before any sort of manipulation),
and the db difference is significant. Then I set my compressor and limiter to work safely in those loud sections. Almost like the soft sections go untouched. I think thats whats setting off the squeezing the most. Hmm.
I'm going to mess with envelopes a bit in a larger way I think. This could explain why I can't get away from this beginner amateur sound I have. Smooth, consistent, thats what I think I'm missing.
I'm really glad you mentioned this 
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#1682350 - 06/23/05 12:48 PM
Re: Peak Control on the full mix
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Lee Knight
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Limiters get a bad rap because they're so misused. It's when you start shaving off the peaks of all your sounds that things get crappy.
Put a good limiter in line and take off ONLY the peaks that won't effect the sound of the thing. Make up the gain... and you're rocking.
I will sometimes lower the volume of a rogue peak manually but that's the same as using a good limiter.
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#1682351 - 06/23/05 12:54 PM
Re: Peak Control on the full mix
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Lee Knight
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Originally posted by alanfc:
I'm going to mess with envelopes a bit in a larger way I think. This could explain why I can't get away from this beginner amateur sound I have. Smooth, consistent, thats what I think I'm missing.
McCartney's bass didn't sound great because of the compression he used. You could have lost that and it still would have had a controlled dynamic due to his careful attention to performance. Then, they added some cool compression and it sounded tits!
Maybe look into the dynamics of your individual tracks and see if you might retrack first.
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#1682352 - 06/23/05 01:39 PM
Re: Peak Control on the full mix
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alanfc
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thanks Lee
Well we've been almost done with this CD for so long, that re-tracking is not desirable. I'm going to chalk this up to a learning experience and do better on our next one, since I've been learning over the months how important the tracking stage is. There's a =million= things I'm going to do differently. We're sort of want to just get this over with. We still love it, but its taken =so = long.
Anyway I do have mostly good performances and individual tracks' dynamics are not too bad. I've used compression on individual tracks for sure. But when they all converge in stereo sometimes its a train wreck ,especially cymbal crashes. (I like lively hot drum overhead's sounds).
In my rookie home mastering chain I just use my Sonar Sonitus compressor at about 1.5 ratio, attack between 3 and 6 ms depending on the song, GR roughly 1.5-2.0. The releases are long-ish at about 600-1000. I find that any ratio higher than 1.5 make everything sound too small real quick.
My compressor is FIRST. Then I have an EQ. I tested alot with switching the order of these and I much prefer the livelieness I get from the EQ after the compressor. This is alot of the reason why peak taming is important to me. The compressor gets the raw stuff first. I like the compressor for its gluey cohesiveness properties and the way it seems to reveal details very nicely. Not relying on it for peaks necessarily. As a matter of fact, I've played around alot with the threshold and found that when I pull it down to a really sick low level (high negative number), the detail is fantastic ! But thin. I don't have that going on now. Then I go into the Kjaerhus free Mastering limiter.
thanks again
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#1682353 - 06/24/05 03:41 PM
Re: Peak Control on the full mix
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Philip O'Keefe
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Levels don't normally present a big problem for me. First of all, I track at conservative levels. I find that by tracking things at about -18 / -15 dBFS, I have plenty of headroom for the louder passages, things never "peak" and give me "overs", and I have more room to play with things at mixdown time. The other benefit is that I don't overload that mix bus. 
When it comes to mixing, I use a control surface and my keyboard / mouse. For me, mixing with hardware faders is far more musical and intuitive... possibly because that approach is what I've used for years (starting with my analog days in the 1970's), and partially because I like thinking of a mix as a "engineer's performance", and having hardware faders that I can "play" makes it more musical to me. I pretty much ignore the screen (close your eyes or shut off the monitor if you can't resist the temptation to look at it  ) and then adjust the faders and record the automation data as the song plays back at me. I undo and try again if I don't like what I did, or if I got it "close" but it needs some fine tuning and precision editing, I'll use the mouse for that.
I tend to use compression for two purposes when mixing - for slightly taming overall level fluctuations when players have really poor dynamics control, and for "tonal shaping" and manipulation - IOW, as an "effect". Overall, I prefer using fader moves for most dynamics control, and I'll frequently "help" the dynamics out when mixing by bringing up faders to accentuate the crescendo or whatever.
I don't try to make my mixes "overly hot". I consider mixing to be one process, and mastering to be a second process, and mix maximizing is part of mastering... getting the levels up to a "reasonable volume" (Office Space joke ) on the masters is the ME's job, not mine... and going too far with the maximizing and mix bus compression is a BIG no-no IMO. Nothing kills the dynamics like squashing it all flat with 2 buss compression that has been added with a heavy hand. Not to mention the ugly distortion it adds. 
If the levels of individual tracks is just too high, I would suggest trimming them down a bit with a trim plug in or with a gain adjustment plug in / processor. Once the mix is finished, if you're going to master it yourself and you have a low RMS value for the whole song and a few really high peaks, you might want to address / lower those peaks seperately, then use more modest limiting on the processed mix file instead of squashing it all in an effort to deal with the peaks. Also, a couple of passes with low to moderate settings on the limiter is usually better than a single pass with high gain reduction settings.
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#1682354 - 06/24/05 11:02 PM
Re: Peak Control on the full mix
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gaotu
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Registered: 01/10/04
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Loc: Indianapolis
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Phil:
What do you mean you like to use a couple of passes with the limiter?
Example: If I were to limit slightly in the DAW and record to my Masterlink and limit again there, would that be a couple of passes?
How are you performing this? (I'm having trouble getting my end levels up to par without massive distortion or totally crap-sounding squashing results.)
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#1682355 - 06/24/05 11:13 PM
Re: Peak Control on the full mix
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where02190
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Proper input levels are crutial to getting good mix levels, as Phil points out. Target your ADDA's 0dbu reference levels to your nominal input levels. (Typically this is somewhere between -18 and -12dbfs) this will allow plenty of headroom for transient peaks yet keep the overall track volume below clipping.
When mixing ITB, don't put all your track faders to 0 and lower the master fader to compensate. You'll only succeed in overdriving the summing mix buss, and making your mix sound like crap. I generally put the ITB faders at -10, and if something is too loud turn it down rather than boosting what's too quiet, subtractive mixing. I leave the master fader at 0. (Must DAW master fader meters and plugins are post fader anyway, so by not changing the MF level, you don't change the signal ratio to the plugin or meters, ensuring accuracy.)
Your mixes should NOT be a straight line, rather there should be some peaks and valleys, that's called dynamics.
Rogue peaks (short micro second bursts that emerge above the nominal level of the track) I'll reduce the gain on a few db to preserve dynamic headroom when mastering. I'm talking a single cycle or two, microseconds of audio that the level change is inaudible except to the (digital) domain, that allows me to gain a few db of level without limiting. Typcially there are a few of these in all my mixes, transients that sneak by a track compressor. Once I've leveled them down by knocking the gain down a db or 2, then I'll use usually a multiband limiter and a soft compressor(1.5:1 short attack and release) to give the track a bit of gel, but nothing major...I'm NOT AT ALL a believer in louder is better. I prefer to preserve dynamics. This process usually get the track plenty loud enough. I'll tweak each track so they work consistantly throughout the CD, and I then, using Jam, normalize the tracks as one, thus preserving the dynamic balance I established prior to importing them to Jam.
All this is done at 24 bit, Jam does the dither, and creates the masterdisc.
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#1682356 - 06/25/05 04:53 PM
Re: Peak Control on the full mix
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gaotu
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Thanks Where, that's some good info. However, this sentence was a little confusing:
"Must DAW master fader meters and plugins are post fader anyway, so by not changing the MF level, you don't change the signal ratio to the plugin or meters, ensuring accuracy."
Could you clarify on that?
And let me get this straight, you put the compressor after the limiter at a 1.5:1 with a QUICK attack? (You said short attack)
Thx
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#1682357 - 06/25/05 10:15 PM
Re: Peak Control on the full mix
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where02190
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The first word is a typo, should be most not must.
Metering and plugins on a master fader, unlike that on a track fader, are post the fader. If you change the level setting of the Master fader, you raise or lower the level going to the meter or plugin. So, in the case of the meter, it would no longer be truly accurate, because if you were to say be peaking the meter with the MF(master fader) at 0 and lowered it to -10, the meter would reflect a 10 db lower level, yet you would still be peaking the input of the MF. If you have a compressor on the MF, lowering the MF level reduces the input to the compressor, and changes how ti reacts. If you, with the MF at 0 have the compressor set so it gives you a GR of a couple DB on peaks, lowering the MF the compressor sees less signal, and those dynamic peaks now are not controlled by the compressor.
And no, to clarify, I put the compressor first, then the limiter. The compressor takes care of more gradual transients, while the limiter handles the faster ones. Sorry if I was not clear on that.
Let me emphasise however I'm very light handed with both when mixing and mastering. I do alot of envelope drawing (by hand) and mix automation when mixing to keep the dynamics preserved and achieve all potential headroom, so i don't have to compress or limit the mix heavily when mastering, whether it's myself or an outside facility doing the mastering. I NEVER compess or limit the mix buss when mixing. That process is saved for mastering.
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#1682358 - 06/25/05 11:46 PM
Re: Peak Control on the full mix
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Chris Cavell
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Registered: 04/04/05
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To be completely clear, such a generalization really can't be made. You'll have to contact the product information department of your DAW manufacturer to get the nitty gritty on how their respective master faders function with regards to the summing buss. Nearly every DAW manufacturer impliments this feature in often drastically different ways.
For example, in a Pro Tools TDM or HD system, the summing buss is actually 48 bits. The master fader is an integral part of the summing buss...a function of the algorithm if you will...and is always present behind the scened even if not visible within the session. Viewing a master fader track within the session gives you access to manipulate this function of the summing buss. It essentially is a 24 bit selector. By default (at the 0dB setting), it selects, iirc, the 24 bits located 16 bits from the least significant bit and 8 from the uppermost bit. Manipulation of the master fader in this implimentation allows you to scale this 24 bit range up or down the available 48 bits. You can think of it, in this design, as a means of manually calibrating the output of the mix engine to match the input of the plugins that follow on the master fader.
Pro Tools LE's implimentation of a master fader is remarkably similar, but uses 32 bit floating point math instead of integer math.
You may wonder, after reading this description of the pro-tools master fader's design, how it would even be possible to clip it. Well, for all intents and purposes, it is impossible. However, it is possible that the position of the master fader can be set to select a range of operation for the summing buss that is below the highest highest bit containing audio information...essentially clipping off anything beyond that point. If a person notices clips at a Pro Tools output, it is operator error...usually not any limitation of the headroom in the mix buss (on a TDM system, the headroom is approximately 48 dBfs before unavoidable distortion from exceeding the summing busses bit depth on the upper end...meaning that you could "appear" to clip the master fader by up to 48dB before the actual summing buss clips...you simply need "recalibrate" the range of operation of the summing buss by means of the master fader's position...on an LE system, the amount of headroom is virtually infinite as a result of the floating point mathematics).
The entire system internally is setup at it's default state to more or less "stay within the lines" if proper operating and reference levels are observed at the tracking stage. You should only be forced to modify settings (read as adjust the master fader in pro tools, or mix in some other DAW's) in the rare circumstances that require ignoring reference operating levels. If you keep the OdBu reference in mind while setting tracking levels, and maintain proper gain staging b/w any plugins, chances are you'll very rarely have to move a master fader from it's default position.
This is just one of the means (albeit one of the more complex methods) of implimenting a "master fader" in a DAW, and certainly doesn't hold true for every design.
To be completely informed on the operation of your system, you'll have to contact the manufacturer.
Cheers,
Chris
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#1682359 - 06/26/05 08:33 AM
Re: Peak Control on the full mix
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where02190
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True, there is no standard reference level amongst the forest of ADDA's, so you need to check the specs on your SPECIFIC unit to know what to reference to.
While most all DAW design is the inserts on the MF are post, there are exceptions.
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#1682360 - 06/26/05 12:12 PM
Re: Peak Control on the full mix
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gaotu
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Where02190, what are you mastering in/with? I don't have a program for doing that yet. Would it then be recommended that I mix without mastering at the same time (i.e. using a limiter on the MF) and then applying it after the mix has been finished and making my CD from that?
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#1682361 - 06/26/05 01:08 PM
Re: Peak Control on the full mix
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Philip O'Keefe
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Sometimes a LITTLE 2 buss compression can be okay IMO... the problem is that many people have been overusing / abusing it.
Gaotu, I'd recommend you check out these two books - Craig Anderton's Audio Mastering (Quick Start) book, and "Mastering Audio" by Bob Katz.
Link
When I say I'm using two passes on the limiter, I mean exactly that. Sometimes I will use a compressor plug in, set for light RMS compression, and a peak limiter after that, and sometimes I'll use two passes with a peak limiter, with only a couple of dB of gain reduction per pass, instead of say, 4 dB with a single pass. What do mean by "passes"? Well, I do my mastering type stuff in Sony's Sound Forge, which operates a bit differently than your DAW software... I open the wave file, and listen to it. If there are any short / high peaks (the sort Where was talking about), I'll sometimes lower those a dB or three right in Sound Forge... and sometimes I'll go back to the mix (if I have access to the DAW session files) and deal with the offending part directly in there (with a fader move or other processing) instead of trying to fix that in the mixed 2 track file. Then I'd continue the mastering on the new mix.
After that, I might process the resulting mix with a limiter, a multiband compressor, a full range compressor, EQ or a combination of any of the above. It just depends on the specific song and what it needs.
However, I strongly recommend you reconsider the idea of mastering your own material. I realize that sometimes this isn't an option (due to budget concerns and other factors), but an outside mastering engineer is usually a very good idea for several reasons:
1. They are usually more experienced and have great ears (assuming you go to a good one ).
2. They know what they're doing (assuming you go to a good one ).
3. They have a great / accurate monitoring environment (assuming you go to a good one).
4. Will be working in a different (and usually better) room than the one you recorded / mixed in, and one that is designed specifically for mastering duties.
5. It gives you the opportunity to get another professional set of ears in on the process and get an educated, independent and unbiased perspective on things.
#4 is pretty important IMO... if you mix and master in the same room, you run the risk of having your room "lie to you". Say your room has modal issues and is less than acoustically "accurate". So you think you have more bass (or less) at a specific frequency (as determined by your room geometry / dimensions) than is actually in the mix, and you process / EQ accordingly. But because your room is less than acoustically "ideal" (and / or your monitors are less than ideal), you make incorrect decisions... not because you suck ( ) but because you didn't have accurate information to base your decisions on because of the sub-standard monitoring environment.
While you do sometimes have to DIY, it's almost always a good idea to go out to a seperate ME if you can afford to do so. Certainly for album projects. There's a reason why people in "the big leagues" don't master their own records.
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#1682362 - 06/26/05 01:20 PM
Re: Peak Control on the full mix
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Philip O'Keefe
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Originally posted by gaotu:
Where02190, what are you mastering in/with? I don't have a program for doing that yet. Would it then be recommended that I mix without mastering at the same time (i.e. using a limiter on the MF) and then applying it after the mix has been finished and making my CD from that?
When mixing, I always do the mix at the same file format / sample rate / bit resolution as the original mix. IOW, I usually track at 24 bit / 44.1 kHz, and my 2 track mix files are also at 24 / 44.1. That's what I give to the ME. THEY do the dithering down to 16 bit at the end of the process. Giving them higher bit files allows them more flexibility insofar as any digital processing. Dither should always be the last and final step in the process, not done earlier.
Also, you probably should NOT try DIY mastering on a file right after mixing it. Walk away from the song for a couple of days, then burn a scratch CD of the song and listen to it on a variety of systems and in various different rooms and see if there are any issues you need to address, and see if you need to do a new mix, or adjust some things in your current automated mix. Live with the song for a few days and really listen to it carefully. Make some notes about what you hear as you go along. Doing that will give you a better handle on things when you do the mastering. And you'll have a new / better / different perspective on things.
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#1682363 - 06/26/05 04:32 PM
Re: Peak Control on the full mix
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Chris Cavell
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As always, excellent advice for the DIY M.E. 
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#1682364 - 06/26/05 06:14 PM
Re: Peak Control on the full mix
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where02190
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Lately I've been using Tracktion for mastering, however ANY DAW with decent plugins can be used, even the one your mixing in. Tracktion has some excelletn multiband comression plugins, as well as come nice eq plugins as well.
For compiling and burning, I use Toast and Jam. (Mac based here.)
Excellent advise from Phil about taking a break between mix and mastering. As a rule, unless the client absolutely must have it that day I take a minimum of 2 weeks between mix and mastering.
Also, let me correct myself a bit. If I know for sure I am mastering, I'll run two mixes, one sans compression (for later mastering) and one with compression, usually the Distressors. It's light, and it's ONLY if I am going to master. IF it goes to an outside mastering facility, they get the uncompressed nominal -12dbfs mix. This gives them a sonically solid file with plenty of headroom left for them to work with.
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#1682365 - 06/28/05 10:54 AM
Re: Peak Control on the full mix
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gaotu
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Registered: 01/10/04
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Loc: Indianapolis
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Thanks so much guys:
Any by the way, I never wanted to master my own stuff. Unfortunately virtually no one wants to pay to price to get it done. The bands I've done so far all want to release EP's on burned CDs... DIY all the way. Hoepfully I'll get a chance to hear my mixes mastered properly someday.
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#1682367 - 06/28/05 02:52 PM
Re: Peak Control on the full mix
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gaotu
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Loc: Indianapolis
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Phil, you recommend those two books? Is the first one too primitive you think? What about Bob Katz's other mastering book, The Mastering Engineer's Handbook?
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#1682368 - 06/28/05 05:34 PM
Re: Peak Control on the full mix
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gaotu
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Where: Is tracktion unable to make a final disc with titles, ordered as necessary and such, like Sound Forge?
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#1682371 - 06/28/05 07:22 PM
Re: Peak Control on the full mix
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gaotu
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Loc: Indianapolis
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Can anyone tell me how I could export my song to a stereo file then reopen it in my DAW to master it. I can't seem to get it to work. What file type should I be exporting in?
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#1682372 - 06/28/05 07:29 PM
Re: Peak Control on the full mix
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Philip O'Keefe
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What DAW software are you using?
In Pro Tools, you do a stereo mixdown "bounce to disk", then create a new session and import that file into it.
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#1682373 - 06/28/05 07:33 PM
Re: Peak Control on the full mix
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alanfc
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Registered: 09/16/03
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Loc: Portland OR to West L.A.
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gaaahh Philip's a faster typist than me !
GAOTU-
I have Sonar (what do you have?)
in Sonar in my multitrack mix , I "select all" command..You can hold down the CNTRL key to deselect any track you'd like not to include...
then go to "edit", then 'bounce to tracks'.
there it gives me a few choices what to bounce to , one of which is a single stereo file. Thats what I do. Once you click it it takes a few minutes and pops up as a new track at the bottom of the page. Split in two, stereo.
Everybody does it differently, but from there I copy just that stereo track to its own project file in Sonar and call it "master ----" . Thats where I do all this stuff..
I don't have a dedicated wave editor that alot of people use to do their manipulations on the stereo file. I just do it all in Sonar.
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#1682374 - 06/28/05 11:58 PM
Re: Peak Control on the full mix
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where02190
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Originally posted by gaotu:
Where: Is tracktion unable to make a final disc with titles, ordered as necessary and such, like Sound Forge?
Previously I was using Soundforge, but, those days are over now I think, and with that most likely the end of my PC days entirely.
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Hope this is helpful. NP Recording Studios Analog approach to digital recording.
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#1682375 - 06/29/05 10:55 AM
Re: Peak Control on the full mix
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gaotu
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Thanks Alanfc, I'm using Sonar 4PE. I'll try your method and see what I get.
How's your level issue coming? I've definitely improved my master and mix in the last week, but still... the levels are not there and it's really got me!!! My levels seem more than 2 db's lower than other CD's...more like 4 or 5. I don't know. Maybe I just can't get my ears to adjust to super compressed sound. I can get things a bit louder, but they start to distort and the clarity of parts disappears. I'm no mastering engineer that's for sure.
Where: Your getting away from the DAW? What for?
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