#1682312 - 06/22/05 01:58 PM
Outdoor mixdowns. . .
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umkcprof
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Hi all. . .
I'm sure you'll all put this in the "stupid question of the month" category, but, outside of the noise issues, electrical power problems, and equipment hauling hassles (which I know can be formidible, indeed), wouldn't doing mixes in the great outdoors (preferably with all the gear about 10 feet from the edge of a pond and the engineer sitting right at the pond's edge) be the best possible solution? This would eliminate all possibilities of even the most trivial acoustic nodes.
Assuming someone COULD do this, would it be nut to try it?
Thanks much.
Steve
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#1682313 - 06/22/05 02:10 PM
Re: Outdoor mixdowns. . .
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Bill@Welcome Home Studios
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too much noise.
Bill
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#1682314 - 06/22/05 02:41 PM
Re: Outdoor mixdowns. . .
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umkcprof
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I understand that noise (not to mention rain!) could be an issue. . . but, if there WERE no noise, wouldn't this be the ideal environment? I ask because VERY quiet lonely private ponds are relatively easy to find in these parts.
Thanks much. . .
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#1682315 - 06/22/05 02:52 PM
Re: Outdoor mixdowns. . .
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Tedly Nightshade
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I do it all the time. It is very nearly ideal.
Fortunately I'm far from all but occasional traffic, and I'm willing to be confused as to which bird noises are on the recording and which are in the air. It's funny because there is a chronic problem with things recorded and mixed in the city- there's subsonic to audible traffic noises all over, and such subsonics penetrate nearly everywhere. But when I listen outside in the woods, I hear every little traffic noise on the recording!
It's hard to get worked up about treating the indoor areas when there's such an ideal acoustic environment right outside the door.
We track outside quite a bit as well.
The pond is something I haven't factored in. The acoustics in such places are mysterious to me- I would think there would be a possibility of things sounding just too nice and lush when they weren't that way on the recording. But compared to all but the very, very finest indoor mixing suites I would expect far, far superior monitoring outside anywhere decently quiet.
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#1682316 - 06/22/05 03:00 PM
Re: Outdoor mixdowns. . .
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umkcprof
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Thanks, Ted. . . that is my "reasoned" opinion for the moment. . . I have yet to do it, but it struck me that since the acoustics of my room aren't even close to ideal (but there as idea as a 10x10x10 cube can be!), why not go to the limit, wait for some good (and not too hot) weather, and give it a shot.
You have supported my logic. . . now I'll see how it sounds for real.
Steve
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#1682317 - 06/22/05 03:48 PM
Re: Outdoor mixdowns. . .
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Bill@Welcome Home Studios
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Well, some friends of mine wanted to save a buck, so I loaned them the gear to track themselves, and I'd mix it here. I couldn't get the crickets out of the tracks. Stacking tracks full of crickets was pretty messed up.
Meanwhile, I was at Michael Wagener's place last year, (a beautiful but smallish room on a lovely horse farm outside of Nashville) and he tracks drums outside. (I don't know if it is a regular thing, or just something that they tried. But I bet that they do this regularly, given the situation.)
My studio is way quiet. Much more quiet than outdoors. My monitors are too big to drag around and that damned amp is 105 pounds. Moving that stuff out the door onto the patio is doable, but a lot of work. Given that the studio space is treated and predictable, it makes mo sense fo rme to try this. Your milage may vary.
The complete acoustic treatment ran under $1500, including the paid carpenters, plus a little sweat equity contributed by myself. (I've described it before, but if you want to know what I did, I'll describe it again, just ask.) It was a little work, but that work is done, and taking the stuff outside would be a continuing amount of work.... out and back, out and back. Doesn't it make sense to set up one good room one time and be done with it?
Bill
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#1682318 - 06/22/05 06:42 PM
Re: Outdoor mixdowns. . .
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umkcprof
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Well, I have what is, in the words of Ethan Winer, the worst possible studio space as far as size. . . literally a 10 by 10 by 10 foot cube. I have walls that are a foot and a half thick with rigid fiberglass and acoustic foam on top of that and diffusers under it all (filled with fiberglass, of course). . . except for the 12" thick concrete, of course. :-(
There is, unfortunately, no way for me to rid that room of low-frequency standing waves without taking the size down to something ridiculously small (6 by 6 or something). . . hence, I'll probably try the outdoor technique when it comes to my final mixes. (Unlike you, I have little to lose other than a bottle of Doan's. :-)
Will it be a hassle Royale? Unfortunately, yes. But it just might be worth it for me. For tracking, the room is fine. . . exceptionally quiet. But, of course, all the ambience is electronic (I'm practically in an anechoic chamber at frequencies above 200 hertz). It is the stuff way down low. . . as always. . . that gives me grief).
Anyway, that's for the tips. . . I'm glad that your room was made "well" for $1500 (but have you ever really used precision test equipment to check just how well it is? Mine sounded pretty good until I got out the meters.). I spent about that much in order to turn a room (the only one available in my basement, unfortunately) from completely unacceptable to "okay for some purposes." But "okay" will have to do for now, as there is nothing else that can be done.
Thanks again.
Steve
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#1682319 - 06/22/05 07:22 PM
Re: Outdoor mixdowns. . .
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Philip O'Keefe
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Steve, room ratios that are the same in any two directions, or multiples of the same dimension (IOW, 20 X 15 X 10') ARE a nightmare, and the same dimensions for all three IS the biggest possible acoustical nightmare from a modal aspect. IOW, cutting it down to 6 X 6 X 10' wouldn't really help you very much - certainly not enough to make it worth the cost and effort.
Any chance you could swap rooms, using a different room of your home for the studio?
I'll post more about the advantages vs disadvantages of mixing in a "free-field" environment (IOW, no acoustical reinforcement - IOW, outdoors) later when I have more time to get into it. 
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#1682320 - 06/22/05 07:41 PM
Re: Outdoor mixdowns. . .
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umkcprof
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Thanks, Phil. . .
Sadly, as long as we are in this house. . .and then, most likely, in any house to come, I'm in about as good a room as I'll get. . . hence my wonder about the possibility of "free-field" mixdowns. . .
Thanks!
Steve
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#1682321 - 06/22/05 08:23 PM
Re: Outdoor mixdowns. . .
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where02190
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Bugs, dust, pollen, general dirt, weather, I'll take the nice climate controlled environment thank you, and so will my gear.
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#1682322 - 06/22/05 08:42 PM
Re: Outdoor mixdowns. . .
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umkcprof
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Boy. . . you guys need to get out more often. . .
:-)
By the way, Nick. . . I think I've decided not to see the SM-81s. . . in fact, I pulled one of 'em out today and it did sound mighty sweet on my acoustic. . .
Thanks for the advice.
Steve
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#1682323 - 06/22/05 10:05 PM
Re: Outdoor mixdowns. . .
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Sean Eldon
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lonely ponds? put down the pipe, captain.
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#1682324 - 06/22/05 10:22 PM
Re: Outdoor mixdowns. . .
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KenElevenShadows
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I guess if we can do live reinforcement for outdoor gigs, it's a viable option.
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#1682325 - 06/22/05 10:53 PM
Re: Outdoor mixdowns. . .
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umkcprof
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My, my, Sean. . . have you never visited a lonely spot?
Like I said, some of you guys have to get out more often.
:-)
Yes, I know. . . the POND isn't lonely. . . but the people at the pond CAN be lonely. . . as in alone. . .
I rather like them. . . even without a pipe.
:-)
Steve
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#1682326 - 06/23/05 09:52 AM
Re: Outdoor mixdowns. . .
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Tedly Nightshade
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Originally posted by where02190:
Bugs, dust, pollen, general dirt, weather, I'll take the nice climate controlled environment thank you, and so will my gear.
If we're trying to capture magic, there's a hell of a lot more of that outdoors.
The trouble with tracking outside has another dimension though- wind on the microphones. That can be a deal killer. Not an issue without live mics. We're still searching for the right omni to handle the wind well.
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"There is nothing I regret so much as my good behavior. What demon possessed me that I behaved so well?" -Henry David Thoreau
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#1682327 - 06/23/05 10:24 AM
Re: Outdoor mixdowns. . .
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umkcprof
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Wow, Ted. . . I couldn't have said it better. . .
Some of our kindred spirits may end up dying of vitamin D deficiencies. . .
:-)
And I agree with the tracking in the wind. . . that could be problematical, indeed. . . but that thought of an acoustic guitar in a fall forest is just taking my breath away. MAN, I'm gonna be there. . .
How I'll get power out there is another issue. . . 'cause long runs of electrical cable can lead to lethal (to equipment, that is) declines in voltages. . . I once burned out a vacuum cleaner that way. . . happily, however, our gear doesn't suck up nearly as much current as a 12 amp vacuum. . .
Steve
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#1682328 - 06/23/05 12:23 PM
Re: Outdoor mixdowns. . .
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Tedly Nightshade
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Originally posted by umkcprof:
And I agree with the tracking in the wind. . . that could be problematical, indeed. . . but that thought of an acoustic guitar in a fall forest is just taking my breath away. MAN, I'm gonna be there. . .
It can become an Ansel Adams thing- waiting until conditions are just right and praying they stay that way throughout the exposure. One problem is that when magic happens the wind seems to always kick up!
You can use various windscreens but they tend to kill the sound pretty dead. Supposedly you can get it all back with some EQ but there are other chamber and resonance issues. I can't tell you how many hours I have into trying to get the outdoor recording thing working. Even these way SDC omnis I'm using go nuts when the wind is high enough. But they do provide a margin of functionality that's considerable compared to many other types of mics.
It can really kick your butt to haul everything out and have it all set up and in tune and the wind or weather goes crazy on you. That can be really frustrating. And there's no way to ensure anything, you can just be prepared and have plenty of time and hope for the best. I could see how that could turn people off.
But monitoring outside is nowhere near as hairy- no mics.
How I'll get power out there is another issue. . . 'cause long runs of electrical cable can lead to lethal (to equipment, that is) declines in voltages. . . I once burned out a vacuum cleaner that way. . . happily, however, our gear doesn't suck up nearly as much current as a 12 amp vacuum. . .
Steve [/qb]
I'm fortunate enough to be able to work right outside my door, so my system is being designed to move in and out as needed with the greatest of ease. But for remote stuff, I'm looking at getting a separate battery system for my car like the boom-boom guys do, and a best-quality sine wave inverter like an ExcelTech or something. Then, I can record within extension cord reach of wherever I can park. Having the gear mounted in the truck and just running mic cables could make it a positive pleasure.
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"There is nothing I regret so much as my good behavior. What demon possessed me that I behaved so well?" -Henry David Thoreau
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#1682329 - 06/24/05 02:33 PM
Re: Outdoor mixdowns. . .
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Philip O'Keefe
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Recording outdoors, even in a "quiet spot", can be problematic, due to environmental noises, wind, etc.
Mixing outdoors might be "do-able", but while you'll be in a "free field" environment, the gear may not like it very much, and moving it all outdoors (and powering it) might be one heck of a big hassle. However, if given a choice between a cube shaped room and the great outdoors to mix in, I might very well be tempted to give the outdoors a shot.
If that cube shaped room is all you have Steve, then mix at low volume levels (do you have a Radio Shack SPL meter? If not, you NEED one  ), and cross check your mixes on as many different speakers, in as many different rooms as you possibly can. And do as much bass trapping in the room as you can.
10' dimensions are going to have modes at 56.5, 113, 169.5, 226, 282.5, 339, 395.5 Hz... and because all three dimensions are roughly identical, those modes are going to be TRIPLE reinforced, meaning the room will go off like a cannon when it is excited at those frequencies, so I'd keep those frequencies in mind while mixing, and some notes that are close to those frequencies "pop out" at you while mixing, take that into consideration... it may not be just a "loud note" that was played aggressively, but the room "lying" to you.
I'm not to sugar coat it Steve... it's a bad room.  The best you can do is to treat it as best you can, monitor at low levels (so as to not excite the modes any more than you have to) and check on a variety of other systems in other rooms.
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#1682330 - 06/26/05 07:01 PM
Re: Outdoor mixdowns. . .
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umkcprof
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Yeah. . . and invest in a truck and a new truss for lugging my gear to the lake.
Yep. . . the room isn't good. . . but I have really treated the pee-waddin' out of it with mass doses of FRK. It is very quiet and nice for tracking (provided I rely upon my Waves effects for ambience on mix-down), but it isn't very good for mixing. . . which is why I thought that braving the outdoors might be my best alternative.
I'm going to give it a shot in a week or two and once I get out of traction from a ruptured disk, I'll send in a post informing everyone of the results.
BTW, I do have one of the those Radio Shack SPL meters. How low would you recommend I keep the volumes? (FYI, my speakers about in the triangle about 3.5 feet by 3.5 feet by 3.5 feet, placed in the "ideal" Ethan Winer position in the room. . . which isn't ideal in this room, of course, but it does obey Ethan's rules.)
Thanks, Phil.
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#1682331 - 06/27/05 05:20 AM
Re: Outdoor mixdowns. . .
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Philip O'Keefe
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No louder than 85 dB on that meter, and a bit quieter at times too. An old trick is to occasionally turn the monitoring level down to near inaudibility and check relative levels at that low monitoring level. If you can still hear everything fairly well, and the balances sound okay when played back that low, it will usually sound great when played back louder... and the added bonus benefit is that when you play back things that softly, the room isn't going to be nearly as much of an issue. So in general, I'd opt for softer monitoring over loud if the room is really bad. And even if it's a "good room," 85 dB is about as loud as you want to monitor for any extended length of time, due to two things: Ear safety (OSHA regs say you can "do" 85 dB for up to 8 hours, and maximum safe exposure time drops dramatically as you start exceeding that level) and secondly, that's where human hearing is most linear in terms of frequency response. Do a Google search on "Fletcher-Munson Curve" sometime for more info on that. Or feel free to ask here.
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#1682332 - 06/27/05 09:35 AM
Re: Outdoor mixdowns. . .
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umkcprof
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I shall do they bidding, Sire. . .
:-)
85 dB (or less) it shall be. . .
Thanks!
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#1682333 - 06/27/05 09:48 AM
Re: Outdoor mixdowns. . .
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Bill@Welcome Home Studios
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You might read Bob Katz's bit on setting levels over at digido.com
Bill
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