#1682168 - 06/18/05 04:27 PM
Small cardioid condenser microphone advice
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umkcprof
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Since, following last week's LDC purchases, either bankruptcy or divorce seem inevitable at this point. Accordingly, I might as well go out with style and "splurge" on a matched pair of SDC microphones, as well. But just which ones should they be? I'm recording ONLY acoustic guitar and piano. Here is your chance to live vicariously on my burgeoning credit card balances. If you think I should keep my current pair of Shure SM-81s (which these mics would REPLACE, not augment), just say so, as I'm sort of torn on this whole microphone escapade at this point, anyway, and I don't want to spend money where money need not really be spent.
(BTW, I was kidding about bankruptcy or a divorce. Economically, I'm doing fine, and my wife never says "no." I'm a lucky man. :-)
Thanks again for all of your help! I will report back with what I decide to do early next week.
Steve
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#1682169 - 06/18/05 04:50 PM
Re: Small cardioid condenser microphone advice
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KenElevenShadows
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Originally posted by umkcprof:
(BTW, I was kidding about bankruptcy or a divorce. Economically, I'm doing fine, and my wife never says "no." I'm a lucky man. :-) 
As far as the SDCs go, as Where and I mentioned, the AT4041 is a wonderful microphone, and fairly easy on the pocketbook. I have AT4051s (modified) and absolutely love them for acoustic guitar. I have a Lawson L251 and an AT4060 and still almost always use the AT4051s for acoustic guitar. Some people really love the Neumanns (KM 84 or 184s, I believe) while others think that they're overpriced. I don't know.
As Phil mentioned, Earthworks and Josephson also make really great SDCs. These are more expensive, but very nicely made. I don't own either of their products, but know that they make very high-quality products.
Sorry, not familiar with the SM-81.
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#1682170 - 06/18/05 05:12 PM
Re: Small cardioid condenser microphone advice
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umkcprof
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Well, as to the wife. . . she just happens to be a real jewel. . . in every way! She's a homemaker (our kids are in college), and figures that as long as I keep bringing home the bacon she's perfectly fine with me buying the studio equipment.
I have to add that all of my single friends have already put in dibs on her should I drop over dead of a heart attack. My best friend from home actually saved my life one day (by pulling me from the path of speeding Chicago bus I was just about to walk in front of) and then actually said: "What on earth was I doing? I could have married Mary!"
:-)
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#1682172 - 06/18/05 07:58 PM
Re: Small cardioid condenser microphone advice
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Philip O'Keefe
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Steve:
M-582's at that price (assuming they're in perfect functional condition - cosmetically, they look great) would be a consideration - IMO, that's a good deal. Remember though - while they say "Neumann" on them, those were actually made in the East German (Gefell) Neumann factory... (the company is currently known as "Microtech-Gefell"), and that makes a difference to some collectors, and generally, West German (Berlin) Neumanns fetch more moolah. Also note: Those are TUBE mics.
If you want more history on the Gefell / Neumann connection and subsequent split, let me know. 
Other suggestions - I'm going with a "Price is no object" approach, since you mentioned the 582's. 
AKG C-460, C-480, C-28, C-451E (not the current B series which are good, but not quite the same thing).
Neumann KM54, KM-84 (avoid the KM-184, which IMO are a pale shadow of the earlier KM-84's).
Schoeps M221B.
Audio Technica AT4041, 4051.
Josephson C42.
Groove Tubes GT44 (tube), GT33 (FET).
Earthworks SR30.
DPA 4011.
Oktava MC012.
Many of those mics have been discontinued and will only be available used. Some are "big bucks", while others are modest in price, and a couple are for the "budget challenged", but still perform well on acoustic guitars and piano. None of them would be considered "uncommon" for those applications, although due to rarity and price, some of them get used more than others in those applications.
As to "which are the best?" - there is no definitive answer. As always, it's a matter of personal preferences, the room, and the guitar / piano source" instrument.
Speaking of that, what sort of acoustic guitar and piano do you have?
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#1682173 - 06/18/05 08:38 PM
Re: Small cardioid condenser microphone advice
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KenElevenShadows
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Originally posted by umkcprof:
Well, as to the wife. . . she just happens to be a real jewel. . . in every way! She's a homemaker (our kids are in college), and figures that as long as I keep bringing home the bacon she's perfectly fine with me buying the studio equipment.
I have to add that all of my single friends have already put in dibs on her should I drop over dead of a heart attack. My best friend from home actually saved my life one day (by pulling me from the path of speeding Chicago bus I was just about to walk in front of) and then actually said: "What on earth was I doing? I could have married Mary!"
:-)
I've been living with my girlfriend for several years now, and she has never once questioned any purchase I've made, pro audio or otherwise. In fact, several years ago when I was tormented over whether to spend a lot of money for an absolutely gorgeous sounding and looking guitar or not, she actually said, "Well, if you really love the guitar you should get it!" and then when I eventually bought it and brought it home, said that she thought it looked amazing and was happy that I purchased it!
~~~~~
Phil, that's a great list of SDCs!
Have I mentioned lately that you rule?
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#1682174 - 06/18/05 09:47 PM
Re: Small cardioid condenser microphone advice
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umkcprof
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No doubt about it. . . Phil rules. . . but, frankly, in my book, everyone on this forum rules. . . as for me, well, I'm just picking the plums that fall to the ground and enjoying ever one. . .
:-)
Steve
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#1682175 - 06/18/05 10:44 PM
Re: Small cardioid condenser microphone advice
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Bill@Welcome Home Studios
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Top of the line.... DPA.
Next in line, Schoeps.
After that.... Neumann 84i. I have a few of these, and they are very nice.
I also have AKG C-28s. I like them, too. The tube gives them a rounder tone than the 451s (yep, got them, too) 460s, and 480s that followed.
I also like the omni Neumann 83. I've only got one, but I wish that I had more. Nice sound.
Bill
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#1682176 - 06/18/05 11:59 PM
Re: Small cardioid condenser microphone advice
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umkcprof
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Phil. . . if M-582s are sonically perfect, would you think that they would get me a great sound on a piano? Apparently, they are a great guitar mic. . .
Thanks much. . .
Steve
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#1682177 - 06/19/05 11:56 AM
Re: Small cardioid condenser microphone advice
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Philip O'Keefe
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There is, IMO, no such thing as a "sonically perfect" mic, but I know what you're saying... IOW, if they're functioning as designed, would they be good on piano? And to that I would reply... maybe. They're tube mics, and they're going to be a bit round, a bit warm in midrange tone... not as "quick" on transients, not as much HF response as some condensers. IMO, they'd make good piano mics, but again, it depends... if you play quietly a lot of the time, the noise may become an issue for you - they're not the quietest mics in the world from a noise standpoint. But they are not "bad" mics, and IMO would be worthy of consideration.
MY question is, what style (genre) of stuff are you going to be recording with them? And what specific piano and guitar do you plan on using them with, and what sort of a "sound" are you looking for? The answers to those questions (what's the source? And what do you want the end results to sound like?) will usually determine, or at least greatly influence, my mic selection decisions. If you have a dark sounding piano, and you're looking to "bring out" what brightness you can from it, then the 582's might not be a good choice.. OTOH, on a bright Yamaha piano that you were trying to get a more "classical" tone from, they might be perfect. It just depends on what you have, and what you want.
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#1682178 - 06/19/05 12:09 PM
Re: Small cardioid condenser microphone advice
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where02190
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I absolutely LOVE the Audio Technica 4041's.
Don't sell the 81's. I sold 3 after picking up the 4041's and almost immediately regretted it. Different flavors of mics is always a good thing.
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#1682179 - 06/19/05 12:51 PM
Re: Small cardioid condenser microphone advice
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umkcprof
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Well, well, well. . . as usual, so much expertise and knowledge is freely given to one with so little experience and understanding.
:-)
The piano is a Kawai grand. . . very beautiful-sounding, my opinion. . . an incredible bell-like sound. . . especially in the higher octaves. Music is mostly soft and new-age type. . . although there is some power and speed from time to time (no me. . . my daughter. . . :-)
The Martin is D-28, and I mostly finger pick. If you can remember Poco's song "Crazy Love," THAT is the sound I'd like to achieve. . . how they did it, I know not, but I'd sure like to know!
Your comments on the noise floor of the M-582s have me wondering if they are for me. . . and your comments on Earthworks are intriguing. . .
IF an omni mic is placed close to the source, does that in some way reduce the extent to which less than desireable room sounds will be picked up?
Anyway, I hope this gives you a bit more to go on. . . and, as always, thanks so much!
Steve
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#1682180 - 06/19/05 01:10 PM
Re: Small cardioid condenser microphone advice
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where02190
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For both instruments I'd recommend a pair of AKG 414's over SDC.
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#1682181 - 06/19/05 05:01 PM
Re: Small cardioid condenser microphone advice
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Philip O'Keefe
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IF an omni mic is placed close to the source, does that in some way reduce the extent to which less than desireable room sounds will be picked up?
Yes, to a degree. Think of it this way: If you put your ear closer to a moderately loud sound source, do you hear more of the source and less of the "room"? IOW, if you were in a school gym, and stood next to a stereo system, you'll hear more of the direct signal from the stereo... you're still in a large room, and the room sound is still going to be there, but the ratio of direct to reflected sound you pick up is going to be greater than if you were standing further away from that stereo.
IOW, Omni mics can definitely get more of the "room tone", but placing them in closer will increase the amount of direct sound captured vs the room ambience. However, if you check this link...
http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/SR30mp/
...you'll notice that the Earthworks model I recommended isn't an omni mic, but a cardioid. I did that specifically because of potential room issues / concerns. If you have a large and great sounding room, by all means, consider a pair of omnis. But otherwise, I'd look at directional mics.
We had a small (5'2") Kawai baby grand when I was in high school... I think those are great pianos. I tend to be a bit of a "two fisted basher" on piano" (IOW, I'm not very good), and when played like that, the Kawai was fairly bright... but it had a lovely tone, and wasn't quite as bright as some Yamahas I've played. For New Age stuff, I would imagine it would be a good choice. Considering that you're probably not hammering it (no pun intended) as hard as I play, and you're primarily fingerpicking acoustic guitar, I'd probably steer clear of tube mics due to noise concerns. Except maybe for the Schoeps 221... but if you find a pair, be sitting down when you ask them for a price. Definitely NOT inexpensive.
Have you tried the Manley / Soundelux pair on the piano yet? And if so, what did you think? And on guitar?
My first inclination would be to get a used pair of KM84's. The prices have gone up somewhat since they were discontinued, but they should still cost much less than the 582's, and they're FET mics, not tube. They are less hyped in the highs than a lot of modern sm dia. condensers... and they'd sound great on that Martin. And if for some reason you don't like them, you can get out of them what you put into them, if you know what I mean.
Or go with a pair of 4051's... they're not unreasonable on the price, they're still being manufactured, and they sound very very good. Resale isn't as high, but it's not an off the wall model that people don't generally like either, so you'll still be able to get something out of them if you later decide to sell them. 4041's are close in tone, but even less expensive. Both are better than SM81's IMO, which I never really liked all that much (I know I'm disagreeing with you Where, but hey, if he takes my advice, you have a line on a pair of 81's ).
Finally, Where's suggestion of a pair of AKG C-414's makes a lot of sense too. They're large diaphragm condensers, but they work very well on acoustic piano and acoustic guitar. I'm a big fan of the earlier (pre-1982 or so) 414EB's, although the later (post 1982) EB P48 models are also a good mic. I've never been as big a fan of the later (U/BLS and TL) models. The earlier EB's use the exact same capsule (CK12) as you'd find in the VERY big bucks Telefunken ELA M521 and AKG C-12 vintage tube mics, and the later EB P48 models use a different (and generally considered inferior) capsule design - but it is still called a CK12. The earlier ones have a brass mic capsule housing, and the later ones use a teflon ring around the capsule... something you can easily see through the grille. And the earlier EB's have a silver body, and the later ones are black. It's been a while since I looked at current "going prices" for these, but good condition P48's are probably around $600-$650 each, and pre-P48 EB's are probably pushing towards a grand each these days... maybe a bit less.
The downside to getting 414's is that you won't have any small diaphragm condensers in your kit... and I don't know that I would be personally comfortable with that. OTOH, you're not a studio for hire, and if it works for what you want to do, WHO CARES?
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#1682182 - 06/19/05 05:17 PM
Re: Small cardioid condenser microphone advice
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umkcprof
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Phil. . . why on earth you and the "guys" (assume that that is a multi-gendered "guys") don't charge people for all this great advice is simply beyond me. . .
Okay, here's where we are at the moment:
1. The new Soundelux ifet7 has yet to arrive, and it won't arrive for at least another week and a half, I would think.
2. I just now (literally seconds ago), finished hooking up the Manley to test it, in mono, on the Martin. . . I'm looking forward to that. . . and will report back soon. (Note that I assume that anyone cares what my unprofessional opinion, anyway! If you knew me like I know me, you wouldn't! The only thing in my defense is that I had a VERY fine stereo back in the early 1980s, and that definitely helped me train my ears. Now, my talent, well, that's a different story.)
3. I sold my Rode K2 to a good friend from church just this morning . . . giving me a great deal at $450 (I paid $600 new). My Shure KSM-32 will hit the ebay block this week. Anyone looking for a BARELY used KSM-32 should let me know soon. . . I'm thinking $350. It is absolutely minto and has the aluminum travel case and all packing materials and all of the paper goodies that go with it.
4. I'm going to hold off on selling the SM-81s (which, like Where, I always have liked. . . but some of that could be nostalgia from my 1982 4-track analog days. . . Tascam 4 track with the dbx noise reduction and a wonderful Otari MX-5050B half-track. . . I only had two mics, and they were the SM-81s) for now. . . until I have the Soundelux in my grubby little hands.
5. I'm taking your advice and am going to pass on the M-582s (despite the apparently good deal), despite the obvious vintage appeal.
6. I will do some more looking for the other mics you recommended just in case the ifet7/Manley combo doesn't give me a great sound.
I shall report back soon!
Thanks all!
Steve
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#1682183 - 06/19/05 05:18 PM
Re: Small cardioid condenser microphone advice
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Philip O'Keefe
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Oh, and one other BIG advantage of a pair of 414's is that because they are multipattern mics, you can try nearly all of the different stereo mic techniques. Spaced omnis or cardioids, XY and ORTF cardioids, M-S (Mid-Side: one mic cardioid, one in Figure 8), Blumlein (basically the same as XY cardioids, but with the mics both in fig. 8 settings, giving you more "room"), etc. It opens up a lot of options.
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#1682184 - 06/19/05 05:19 PM
Re: Small cardioid condenser microphone advice
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umkcprof
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Pardon the typos. . . I mean giving HIM a great deal on the Rode K2. I'd have loved to have bought that mic for $450, but I traded the Manley for the Rode. . .
. . . alas. . .
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#1682185 - 06/19/05 05:20 PM
Re: Small cardioid condenser microphone advice
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umkcprof
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Phil. . . do you know anyone who has a great pair of those early (pre-1982) 414s???
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#1682186 - 06/19/05 05:24 PM
Re: Small cardioid condenser microphone advice
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Philip O'Keefe
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Steve:
My Shure KSM-32 will hit the ebay block this week. Anyone looking for a BARELY used KSM-32 should let me know soon. . . I'm thinking $350. It is absolutely minto and has the aluminum travel case and all packing materials and all of the paper goodies that go with it.
Just a suggestion, but you might want to copy / paste that into a post on the "swap meet" thread, along with your contact information... or just have them send you a PM (Private Message) if they're interested.
PS If I could find a way to make some good money by doing audio consulting, and that didn't require me to work for a retailer and / or wear a tie, I MIGHT just consider it... OTOH, I consider doing this as "repaying a debt" to all the people who helped me over the years... the old "pay it forward" thing.
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#1682188 - 06/19/05 05:37 PM
Re: Small cardioid condenser microphone advice
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umkcprof
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I know what you mean about the pay-it-forward sort of thing. I do that with art collecting (our first real passion) all the time. . . we've started dozens of people out collecting great, museum-quality things, and it is a lot of fun to see them learn. (BTW, I sold a picture this week to pay for all the microphones I've been buying. :-)
Regardless, there are a whole lot of people who are very grateful that you are so welcoming, giving and patient.
:-)
Steve
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#1682189 - 06/19/05 06:52 PM
Re: Small cardioid condenser microphone advice
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KenElevenShadows
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I should add that the AT4051s have interchangeable capsules , and the other capsules can be had for (I think) US$200 or so. I have both the omni and the cardioid capsules and absolutely love them both.
~~~~~
As far as dispensing advice for free, I feel that there are no secrets. I don't really care. Other people have given me great advice here, and it's a give-and-take thing. I've also met some great people from these forums!
Now, back outside..........this time to enjoy the weather instead of painting and working!!
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#1682190 - 06/19/05 07:25 PM
Re: Small cardioid condenser microphone advice
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umkcprof
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Yes, indeedie. . . it has been glorious for days here in Kansas City. . . ever since the week of storms came through, washed out most of the Senior Tour Golf tournament, and finished with a blaze of glory by knocking over the big tree in my front yard.
:-(
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#1682191 - 06/19/05 09:25 PM
Re: Small cardioid condenser microphone advice
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Philip O'Keefe
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Have I mentioned lately that you rule?
Not lately Ken, but that's okay... I just assumed it was because it's "kiss up to Bruce and Craig" month here at Musicplayer.
Not that they both don't deserve it far more than I do. 
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#1682192 - 06/19/05 09:26 PM
Re: Small cardioid condenser microphone advice
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Philip O'Keefe
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But seriously Ken (and Steve), thanks for the kind words. 
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#1682193 - 06/19/05 10:04 PM
Re: Small cardioid condenser microphone advice
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Philip O'Keefe
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Well, I'm not completely unselfish... I just bought a 4041 for myself on Ebay... B stock, factory repacked, full warranty... $179 + $9 for shipping. I'm hoping they have a second one. At that price, I couldn't pass it up.
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#1682194 - 06/20/05 09:03 AM
Re: Small cardioid condenser microphone advice
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where02190
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$188 for a 4041...Phil I hate you....
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#1682195 - 06/20/05 12:31 PM
Re: Small cardioid condenser microphone advice
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umkcprof
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I say he deserves it. . .
:-)
As I'm sure we all do.
:-)
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#1682196 - 06/20/05 03:05 PM
Re: Small cardioid condenser microphone advice
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Philip O'Keefe
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Steve, there was a 414EB on Ebay earlier this morning, but they were already up to a grand for it. Looked really good though.
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