#1682010 - 06/16/05 05:35 AM
Recording Sitar and loud drummer in same room
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where02190
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Got a hippy weird band that wants to record (among other things) sitar and a very loud drummer, and is insisting on all being in the same room and cutting live. While I tried some gobos and plexi baffles, round one was a disaster. No matter what I cannot get anything on the unbelievable quiet sitar. the loud drummer doesn't help. I tried everything from a 57 to an AT4041, again with no siginficant success.
Other than telling them the obvious (and no it doesn't have a pickup) any suggestions? They are somewhat buddies, and one guy is a regular client with good cach flow and a nice guy, so I'd like to find a solution for them that works for both them and I.
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#1682011 - 06/16/05 07:18 AM
Re: Recording Sitar and loud drummer in same room
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blackfish
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what about a pzm duct taped to a gobo or back of a combo amp aimed at the sitar but rejecting the drums? think zappa!
guess there might not be enough level from the sitar to be picked up tho huh?
just some goofy suggestions.
sux they need to be in the same room.
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#1682012 - 06/16/05 07:41 AM
Re: Recording Sitar and loud drummer in same room
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Bill@Welcome Home Studios
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The sitar is another one of those complex acoustic instruments that radiates all sorts of interesting sounds from all over it's body, and is best recorded solo (though you knew this...) to pick up all of the reflections and get the total sound of the instrument, not just the limited response from one spot. This being the case, the drummer -has- to be in another room.
When Ravi Shankar came though town I had the pleasure of working sound, though only as an A2. The micing was less than ideal (but as good as it could be, given the requirements and limitations set by the artist...), and I learned a little something about those indian instruments just by paying attention during sound check and walking around the rug listening.
Sounds like a very interesting project. If you can get the players to allow you to do your job. This would be the kind of thing that I'd probably play at home.
Some of the touring Broadway-style shows have started carting around portable drum booths that are absorbent on the bottom half and plexi on the top for eye contact with the other players. They are heavy. One of the companies that makes them is here in town, the owner is a friend of mine, so if I were confronted with such a situation and they definitely demanded to be in the same room, we'd be renting one of these little booths. They are smallish.. only about 5 or 5.5 feet tall, in order to fit under the varying stage lips in the pits that touring shows might run into; and about an 8x8 footprint. Some have threaded couplers in the ceiling for mics, others don't. They are basically booked 2 piece walls that hinge in the middle, and use loose pin hinges to attach the various walls together. The ceiling is just two absorbent pieces, tossed over the walls, no attachment needed since gravity is your friend. Is there a chance that such a thing exists in your neighborhood?
Bill
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#1682014 - 06/16/05 09:20 AM
Re: Recording Sitar and loud drummer in same room
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Jimbroni
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I'm in a weird hippy band. When we record the sitar the first thing we do is take adivant so we can maintain our patience while waiting for Chris to tune it in. My lord what a process.
Seriously, I've had the most luck in a live situation with a fishman bridge transducer on the main gourd body and a small diaphragm condensor on the little gourd. Then run them through a small PA, and record the PA speakers. I know its not the most HI FI method, but when recording with a loud drummer what else are you going to do.
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#1682015 - 06/16/05 09:38 AM
Re: Recording Sitar and loud drummer in same room
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Kris
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I've been in the same situation and the only saving grace was She had a fishman type pickup in the sitar. Good luck!!!
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#1682016 - 06/16/05 09:40 AM
Re: Recording Sitar and loud drummer in same room
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where02190
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I tried a similiar thing with an MS91 on the plexi, no luck.
The instrument does not have any pickup of any kind, and the player doesn't want one. Full iso isn't an option either for them.
My feeling is they are just wanting to be the hippie weirdos they are and fight physics, and well, we all know who wins that battle now don't we.
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Hope this is helpful. NP Recording Studios Analog approach to digital recording.
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#1682018 - 06/16/05 10:11 AM
Re: Recording Sitar and loud drummer in same room
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miroslav
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Originally posted by where02190:
My feeling is they are just wanting to be the hippie weirdos they are and fight physics, and well, we all know who wins that battle now don't we. 
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miroslav - miroslavmusic.com"Just because it happened to you, it doesn't mean it's important."
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#1682020 - 06/16/05 10:26 AM
Re: Recording Sitar and loud drummer in same room
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Anderson Council Sound
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Registered: 07/13/01
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Get a contact pickup, end of story. Explain to him it's the only way to get a good sound while recording drums at the same time. They sound remarkably good.
I recorded a weird hippy band years ago and they wanted the same situation. It was drums, upright bass, sitar, violin, tambura, elec gtr, and 4 female vox all going down live, in the same room. I was getting great sounds on everything except that sitar, it was just too quiet. The sitar player had a contact pickup that we put right by the bridge of her sitar and it worked perfectly. Sure, maybe it would've sounded a little fuller if it was mic'd properly, but with all the bleed swimming around in that room, the contact pickup was the only solution. The pickup gave us clear sound, and was actually supprisingly warm and natural. I think it was a fishman, but it was years ago and I don't really remember.
Unless they cave in and decide to overdub the sitar, a contact pickup is, IMHO, the only way to go.
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#1682021 - 06/16/05 10:48 AM
Re: Recording Sitar and loud drummer in same room
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Lee Knight
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How about a contact pickup AND a mic. Then let them choose after, which one they like.
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#1682022 - 06/16/05 11:17 AM
Re: Recording Sitar and loud drummer in same room
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d gauss
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to paraphrase a million old school cats....if the drummer can't hear the sitar, he's playing too loud.... 
-d. gauss
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#1682023 - 06/16/05 01:49 PM
Re: Recording Sitar and loud drummer in same room
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KenElevenShadows
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Is it possible to get them far enough away from each other (across the room) that you can get some isolation with that and the gobos, etc. you are using? I know a sitar is really really quiet. I've recorded one before. But maybe if they are, say, completely across the room with gobos on the bottom part so that it partially blocks the drums?
Or maybe they are in adjoining rooms, with the sitar player playing right near a door?
I'm assuming that you cannot use pickups or similar devices at all...
I dunno. Isolation booth with windows?
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#1682024 - 06/16/05 07:37 PM
Re: Recording Sitar and loud drummer in same room
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offramp
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Looks to me like the only way out is to do a take, solo the sitar, and have them finally get it for themselves.
I know they're in your circle of acquaintances, but this is just idiotic...hippie vibe or no.
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#1682025 - 06/16/05 08:21 PM
Re: Recording Sitar and loud drummer in same room
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where02190
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A pickup is not an option for them, and I hate the way they sound also. By itself I got a great sound with the 4041's, but as soon as the drummer starts up, all I ahve is more drums.
But hey, if they want to keep writing checks to try to change the laws of physics, I'll happily take them. Other than this they are fun folks.
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Hope this is helpful. NP Recording Studios Analog approach to digital recording.
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#1682026 - 06/16/05 08:45 PM
Re: Recording Sitar and loud drummer in same room
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KenElevenShadows
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If you've shown them the detrimental effects and they want to keep recording it that way, so be it. At least they're friends and good to work with and it's all fun. And you're getting paid.
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#1682027 - 06/16/05 08:47 PM
Re: Recording Sitar and loud drummer in same room
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halljams
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Originally posted by Jimbroni:
When we record the sitar the first thing we do is take adivant so we can maintain our patience while waiting for Chris to tune it in. My lord what a process.
Quarter tones shmorter tones!
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#1682028 - 06/17/05 12:43 PM
Re: Recording Sitar and loud drummer in same room
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KenElevenShadows
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If you've heard someone play a grossly out-of-tune sitar, trust me, you'll run screaming from the room! 
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#1682029 - 06/17/05 12:51 PM
Re: Recording Sitar and loud drummer in same room
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Jimbroni
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As opposed to banjo's which will make you run screaming from the room when they are in tune.
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#1682030 - 06/17/05 01:33 PM
Re: Recording Sitar and loud drummer in same room
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KenElevenShadows
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Funny!
You know, for whatever sick sick reason, I actually like (good) banjo playing. I know, I know....I'm a sick man. I actually go willingly to Ralph Stanley concerts...
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#1682032 - 06/17/05 04:56 PM
Re: Recording Sitar and loud drummer in same room
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Philip O'Keefe
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ANY chance you can get them into seperate rooms (with "line of sight" via windows or video cameras) and track them simultaneously?
Short of doing that, or the nixed overdub idea, I really don't have any good suggestions.  Sitar is just too quiet, and multi-radiating in its output (requiring some mic distance to capture everything properly) that it's going to be a cast iron PITA to try to get it working together in the same room, at the same time as a loud drum kit - IMO.
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#1682033 - 06/17/05 07:04 PM
Re: Recording Sitar and loud drummer in same room
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KenElevenShadows
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That's about the best bet. Every time I've recorded sitar, I've had to have the room really quiet and really back those mics back. And I've had to use multiple mics. Not the easiest instrument to record super well. So obviously having loud drums in there presents a huge challenge in isolation and other things.
Those recordings where you hear a sitar sounding really lush and warm - well, damn, those are good sitars being recorded with good gear in a good room by a good engineer. That just doesn't happen by accident.
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#1682034 - 06/18/05 10:04 AM
Re: Recording Sitar and loud drummer in same room
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where02190
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I wish I could Phil, but the hippie weird side of them says they HAVE to be n the same physical space....and they don't care about the bleed. so they get what they get, which in the case of the sitar mics, is more drum room mics!!!!
Thanks everyone for telling me what I already knew.
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Hope this is helpful. NP Recording Studios Analog approach to digital recording.
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#1682036 - 06/19/05 01:09 PM
Re: Recording Sitar and loud drummer in same room
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where02190
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The sitar is so quiet when the drumer plays it completely obscures the sound of the sitar.
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#1682037 - 06/19/05 07:03 PM
Re: Recording Sitar and loud drummer in same room
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KenElevenShadows
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It's time for blankets on the drums!!!! Tell them it sounds more '70s. Maybe they'll go along with it!!
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#1682038 - 06/20/05 09:50 AM
Re: Recording Sitar and loud drummer in same room
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Jimbroni
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Every town needs a place where phony hippies can meet.
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#1682039 - 06/20/05 09:54 AM
Re: Recording Sitar and loud drummer in same room
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blackfish
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where do all the hippies meet
south street! south street!
where the place that can't be beat
south street! south street!
damn good place for ready rock too! 
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