#1681914 - 06/15/05 04:11 PM
Re: Giving rough's at end of day from PTLE
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Geekgurl
Platinum Member
Registered: 08/17/03
Posts: 1229
Loc: near San Francisco
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Originally posted by bpark@prorec.com:
[QUOTE]When you and I sit back from the monitors, look at each other and smile, and the project is done, and you take it home, listen to it for a while, and come back to me with a "Remember on song 3, where we decided to do this? I wanna do something to it." That is fine. It is even typical. No matter how hard you work on a mix, invariably some song or another that we liked originally is going to need to be tweeked or changed. Sometimes we are going to look at each other and say, "What in the world were we THINKING????!!!!"
So I guess it's just a matter of semantics in terms of that ... but I guess you get people who want something beyond this. I want to work with engineers who I have enough confidence in them to let them do their jobs, but who won't be put out or unresponsive if I have a concern about a few things here or there. Sometimes I'll say, "what about doing X, it seems like that would sound better." And the engineer will tell me why that wouldn't work. Or, sometimes they like the idea ... and I go with their expertise without further lobbying probably 98 percent of the time.
So it sounds like I'm not asking too much, regardless of my place in whatever "food chain" I'm in ...
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#1681915 - 06/15/05 04:28 PM
Re: Giving rough's at end of day from PTLE
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Philip O'Keefe
10k Club
Registered: 12/17/00
Posts: 17674
Loc: Riverside,CA,UNITED STATES
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Bill, it appears (at least to me  ) that we're pretty much in agreement except on the issue of "rehersal / arrangement / analysis". Okay, after reading your (and Geekgurl's) last posts, I think we're pretty much in agreement on "analysis" - the mixdown tweaking stuff is pretty much what I had in mind when I used that term.
Now as far as rehersal:
Rehearsal? What are they doing in the studio? They should be rehearsed before they got there.
I agree. However, that's not always the reality. Sometimes things get changed in the middle of the project, in spite of careful rehearsal and pre-production. For example, you rehearse it without BGV's, but later, while doing the actual recording, you change your mind and decide you want BGV's on the bridge or whatever... or you want the lead vocalist to tightly double a comped lead. Or the lead vocalist is going to end up doing all the BGV's, and obviously, s/he can't sing multi-part harmonies with themselves in rehearsal. And even if they use a multitrack at rehearsal to simulate that, the actual "final" recorded performance is what you want them singing the BGV's to, or doing the double to. A little "out of the studio" rehearsal time can help them get that final (comped) phrasing and timing down, and thus allow them to cut the track(s) (doubles and / or BGV's) quicker in the studio... but IMO, sometimes they've got to hear (and rehearse to) the actual recording in order to most effectively do that.
And I have not touched on all the times when "hey, wouldn't it be cool to add XYZ to this?" comes up in mid-session... Usually I like to at least let people give their ideas a quick try, and if the idea works (and it doesn't always turn out that way, but in my experience, it's usually quicker to let them try and have it become "obvious" to everyone that it isn't "working" than it is to argue about it for a extended period of time - and you have the added benefit of letting people know you were willing to consider their ideas and suggestions and give it a fair "try"), and if they can quickly nail it, and if everyone is agreeing that it's working great, you just go for it on the spot. OTOH, I don't like to spend hours and hours of studio time doing a complicated part that no one has even thought of before, yet alone rehearsed. But in general, I prefer to avoid giving out roughs for these purposes whenever possible, but there are times when it has to remain an option IMO.
Now as far as arrangements, IMO, those should be pretty much worked out in advance... however, say we decide in mid-project to add strings to something. That means I can spend several hours transcribing everything, arrange the strings myself, or I can hand off a rough mix and some instructions to the string arranger and let him / her work off of that. If I have a band demo, I'll sometimes send that off instead, especially if the arrangement / song structure has remained unchanged from the demo stage. But if it hasn't, again, I can see where I MIGHT have to have the option of giving out a rough to a QUALIFIED and TRUSTED arranger. And that would be a very good example of a situation where a NDA might come into the equation...
But as far as this goes:
To get someone else's opinion? Homey don't play that. You got a producer, bring him in, let's get the work done. You wanna build a horse by committee, take your work somewhere else. I won't deal with that IN the studio, let alone you wanna take mixes OUT for someone else to comment. We do what your producer wants, or we do what you want, or we do what I want. I won't sit here and try to mix for all six band members and their girlfriends, drug dealers, truck drivers, or dog walkers.
Absolutely!  Again, it's not "uncle Bob's record", or their driver's record, or their girlfriend's record, and I do NOT "want to make a horse by committee"... I'm in complete agreement with you about all of that!
And as I've already said in previous posts, NONE OF THESE reasons "fly" if I have not been paid in full, or at least "up to date".
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#1681916 - 06/15/05 04:52 PM
Re: Giving rough's at end of day from PTLE
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Bill@Welcome Home Studios
MP Hall of Fame Member
Registered: 08/23/03
Posts: 7294
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Originally posted by geekgurl:
[QUOTE] .... I want to work with engineers who I have enough confidence in them to let them do their jobs, but who won't be put out or unresponsive if I have a concern about a few things here or there. Sometimes I'll say, "what about doing X, it seems like that would sound better." And the engineer will tell me why that wouldn't work. ...
See, here's a major issue... respect between the artists and the engineer. If I respect you as an artist, and you respect me as an engineer, things are gonna rock. If you are insecure and you need the validation of the opinion of others outside of the studio for personal security, we're not going to have a very good time.
I'm going to try to help you to achieve your vision. In the studio, I'm not a "You can't do that" kinda guy. There are boundaries on both sides, which really come down to respect issues. You have to believe that I know what I am doing and have your best interests at heart, and I have to know that you really are an artist and actually have a vision. We figure that stuff out in pre-production, before anything is recorded. I get really excited about music, making music, recording music, and if I take your project, it is because I want to do things, not because I want to say that you can't do things.
It took me many years to learn how to not get screwed and keep enjoying the process of recording. When I try to pass along these tips, I often get slagged as being negative. I'm trying to be informative. Protect yourself ahead of time, you won't get screwed, and you'll have a great recording experience that will be fun and productive. Telling people about these things seems to bother some people, ("Like, what a buzz-kill, dude...") because they appear to be negative things. They are not. They are aspects of doing business that people ignore, to their own peril. Like the insurance issue in an earlier post this month... look at your home owners policy. If you make money from a business in your home, you probably have invalidated it. Your house burns, or is burggled, you aren't covered.
I am sorry that these things appear so negative, but they need to be handled so that the recording experience is not a negative event.
Bill
_________________________
"...it's easier than hitting the kids, and almost as much fun..."
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