#1681884 - 06/13/05 04:06 PM
Giving rough's at end of day from PTLE
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Lee Knight
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Since you can only Bounce To Disc in real time in PT, does anyone have a better way to send a client home with rough's?
When I say rough's, I mean a work in progress, not mixes of a completed tune. This is when an artist needs it the most, so they can work on an up to date version of their work.
When you've worked on a few tunes in a night and the client needs a reference to the work done that night, it seems the only answer is, "do you have 30 minutes so I can bounce?".
Anybody manage to leap this hurdle?
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#1681885 - 06/13/05 04:08 PM
Re: Giving rough's at end of day from PTLE
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Matt.Hepworth
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Sure, just give them 30 second clips!
Sorry, I don't know a better way.
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#1681886 - 06/13/05 04:11 PM
Re: Giving rough's at end of day from PTLE
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Lee Knight
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I know. I just loved being able to "save as" in ACID for instance and having a file in 5 seconds. It seems it would be a great feature for PT. Save as... lower quality, faster save, for just this scenario.
Call it a WIP file (work in progress)
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#1681887 - 06/13/05 04:32 PM
Re: Giving rough's at end of day from PTLE
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Philip O'Keefe
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BTD, or run it to some other mixdown machine... either way, it's a "real time" operation. Just as it was back in the all analog days. 
It doesn't bother me all that much... I figure we've gotten pretty spoiled by the speed we can accomplish things these days. Look at it this way - the time you saved by not having to rewind the tape deck should be more than enough to compensate for doing a complete pass at the end of the day for the roughs. And besides, it gives everyone an opportunity to review what you accomplished that day.
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#1681889 - 06/13/05 05:34 PM
Re: Giving rough's at end of day from PTLE
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Philip O'Keefe
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You've got to do playbacks at various points in the process, right? Just dump over to a second computer, or a second soundcard on your PT machine and into something like Sound Forge.
It's pretty much a non-issue for me, but I do see people complain about it from time to time, so I'll admit it - it's probably a good idea. 
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#1681890 - 06/13/05 05:35 PM
Re: Giving rough's at end of day from PTLE
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Philip O'Keefe
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BTW, this might be another good reason for charging by the hour and NOT "per project". 
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#1681891 - 06/13/05 05:41 PM
Re: Giving rough's at end of day from PTLE
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Bill@Welcome Home Studios
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Never let anything but finishsed mixes out of your room. Paid for.
Bill
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"...it's easier than hitting the kids, and almost as much fun..."
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#1681892 - 06/13/05 05:52 PM
Re: Giving rough's at end of day from PTLE
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Philip O'Keefe
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Sometimes that's not an option Bill... IMO, sometimes it's important to get the actual tracks to them for rehersal purposes - so the BGV's can be rehearsed with the actual lead vocal or whatever. But I never let roughs out unless 1) the account is paid up to date and in full, and 2) without giving a stern lecture about NOT playing them for anyone who doesn't have a "need to hear". I've even gone so far as to have people sign NDA's on roughs, although I admit that's a bit extreme.
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#1681893 - 06/13/05 06:06 PM
Re: Giving rough's at end of day from PTLE
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gaotu
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I have another twist to this question: I just recorded a band that did five tracks in about 10 hours, wanting to use this 5 track EP for a demo. At the end of the night they asked for a "rough" and I gave them one for $5. It's fairly mixed, as I was mixing a bit as we went along. My wife mentioned that they may never pay me the rest of my money and just forego on the final, mastered mix because all they want is a semi-rough demo anyway. Has anyone every had this scenario happen to them? (The artists are always under contract, but enforcing a contract is more of a challenge than I'd ever like to go through with - especially for less than $100.)
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#1681894 - 06/13/05 06:16 PM
Re: Giving rough's at end of day from PTLE
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Philip O'Keefe
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OOPS! You probably just learned a painful lesson. Bill's correct - NEVER EVER EVER UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES give out roughs unless you've been paid for the time you've put into the work up to that point!
Again, I do see times when roughs are required, but IMO, they're to be avoided if possible. But if you MUST give them out, use caution and CYA!
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#1681895 - 06/13/05 09:36 PM
Re: Giving rough's at end of day from PTLE
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Matt.Hepworth
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Originally posted by Philip O'Keefe: ...I never let roughs out... without giving a stern lecture about NOT playing them for anyone who doesn't have a "need to hear". I've even gone so far as to have people sign NDA's on roughs, although I admit that's a bit extreme.
Thanks.
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No matter how good something is, there will always be someone blasting away on a forum somewhere about how much they hate it.
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#1681896 - 06/14/05 12:02 AM
Re: Giving rough's at end of day from PTLE
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gaotu
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Yea.. it was a mistake on my part to hand out a rough, but it seems like most bands that come through can't wait to get their hands on their recorded material. It's probably because many of them haven't recorded before. It is a good idea not to hand them out just for keeping my studio's reputation up. An unmixed project can sound like pooh, and some band's don't really even notice the difference... probably because they never wear earplugs!!!
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#1681897 - 06/14/05 01:15 AM
Re: Giving rough's at end of day from PTLE
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Philip O'Keefe
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Originally posted by Matt.Hepworth: Originally posted by Philip O'Keefe: ...I never let roughs out... without giving a stern lecture about NOT playing them for anyone who doesn't have a "need to hear". I've even gone so far as to have people sign NDA's on roughs, although I admit that's a bit extreme.
Thanks.
1. NOTHING goes out - in any way shape or forum, unless the account is paid up to date. That IS made perfectly clear BEFORE I will take on a project. That one rule will generally go a long way in keeping you from getting "stiffed".
2. If I'm producing, I have a pretty ironclad policy of "no roughs unless there's a good reason for them". I would say that rehersal, arrangement and analysis purposes can all be considered as "good reasons". And when I give out roughs, I remind people that I think sharing them with people is generally a bad idea.
I have several reasons for that... most based on firsthand experience, or on secondhand observation; seeing it come back to bite one of my friends.
For example, roughs can and do get into the wrong hands sometimes, and copies get bootlegged.
Sometimes too many chefs ruin the dish... if someone wants another opinion from someone they respect, discuss it with me and we can probably bring them into the studio. I have no problems with second opinions, but OTOH, I don't want to have to deal with a ton of differing opinions from outsiders I've never met, who have unknown (to me) knowledge, tastes and musical skills.
Ultimately I do appreciate getting other opinios from PEOPLE WHOSE EARS I TRUST, but OTOH, it's a limited little "club" that I want involved with the record... not wives / boyfriends / husbands / girlfriends / uncle Bob who played kazoo in high school, etc. I want to know what the artists think, and I'll share with them what I think... it's not uncle Bob's record.
Finally, I also like to say "here it is - done / finished - hope you like it" when the record is finished. I find, that when you play something "in process" for people who are really not "into it", and then play the "finished" work for them, they'll sometimes say "yeah, you played that for me before". Their minds and opinions are already made up. You only get one opportunity to make a first impression, and with something like music, I think you'd better make that first impression as good as you can.
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#1681898 - 06/14/05 06:52 AM
Re: Giving rough's at end of day from PTLE
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seclusion
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Any rough take I do has the odd Mute button accidentally pushed on several times through out the song/s. Yes I have been taken on this as well. Works well to do that to the master fader.. I'm nice though I do it in time so they can follow along! If they start whining about anything financial I'm accidentally out of CDRs.
Out of probably 60 or so sessions I've done I've only had 1 issue. I'm getting pretty good at deciding who I let in my room too!
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#1681899 - 06/14/05 09:55 AM
Re: Giving rough's at end of day from PTLE
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Lee Knight
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Originally posted by seclusion:
Any rough take I do has the odd Mute button accidentally pushed on several times through out the song/s. Yes I have been taken on this as well. Works well to do that to the master fader..
This is like an impaired version of evaluation software. Good ideas...
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#1681900 - 06/14/05 11:34 AM
Re: Giving rough's at end of day from PTLE
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gaotu
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Phil... Uncle bob is one hell of a kazoo player though. Sweet, buzzing tones...
Good points Phil, I'll keep those in mind. They do make sense.
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#1681902 - 06/14/05 04:15 PM
Re: Giving rough's at end of day from PTLE
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Matt.Hepworth
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Eric, that's f'ing brilliant! I'm game.
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#1681903 - 06/14/05 04:42 PM
Re: Giving rough's at end of day from PTLE
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Lee Knight
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Yeah, that solves that.
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#1681904 - 06/14/05 05:13 PM
Re: Giving rough's at end of day from PTLE
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Philip O'Keefe
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Voxengo is a cool company! 
And the price is definitely "right".
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#1681905 - 06/14/05 07:55 PM
Re: Giving rough's at end of day from PTLE
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KenElevenShadows
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That is amazing.
I can't use it. Compatibility and all. But that's okay.
I can just have a track of random beeping and place that in with the rest of the mix.
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#1681906 - 06/15/05 11:16 AM
Re: Giving rough's at end of day from PTLE
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Timmy2000
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One trick for a a faster than real time bounce is to consolidate all the audio on each channel in to single wavs ie 1 wav for channel 1, 1 wav for channel 2, etc. If you then open these wavs in Adobe Audition and bounce them down in there it should work out slightly quicker.
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#1681907 - 06/15/05 12:41 PM
Re: Giving rough's at end of day from PTLE
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Bill@Welcome Home Studios
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There is no logical reason, most of the time, that anyone needs to take rough mixes home, other than ego.
Rehearsal? What are they doing in the studio? They should be rehearsed before they got there.
To get someone else's opinion? Homey don't play that. You got a producer, bring him in, let's get the work done. You wanna build a horse by committee, take your work somewhere else. I won't deal with that IN the studio, let alone you wanna take mixes OUT for someone else to comment. We do what your producer wants, or we do what you want, or we do what I want. I won't sit here and try to mix for all six band members and their girlfriends, drug dealers, truck drivers, or dog walkers.
Besides the obvious chance of getting ripped off, half-assed rough mixes of mine have shown up on the fucking radio, on compilation CDs, and in wide distribution as bootlegs. Things that I would never want anyone to associate with me. I stopped letting such mixes out of the studio a long, long time ago.
Bill
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"...it's easier than hitting the kids, and almost as much fun..."
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#1681908 - 06/15/05 12:41 PM
Re: Giving rough's at end of day from PTLE
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Geekgurl
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Originally posted by bpark@prorec.com:
Never let anything but finishsed mixes out of your room. Paid for.
Bill
Generally reference copies have been given out without my even asking for them. I've certainly never had an engineer refuse to give reference copies. I wouldn't want to work with one who did.
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#1681909 - 06/15/05 12:45 PM
Re: Giving rough's at end of day from PTLE
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Geekgurl
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Originally posted by bpark@prorec.com:
There is no logical reason, most of the time, that anyone needs to take rough mixes home, other than ego.
Originally posted by bpark@prorec.com:
Besides the obvious chance of getting ripped off, half-assed rough mixes of mine have shown up on the fucking radio, on compilation CDs, and in wide distribution as bootlegs.
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#1681910 - 06/15/05 02:43 PM
Re: Giving rough's at end of day from PTLE
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Bill@Welcome Home Studios
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Originally posted by geekgurl:
[QUOTE]...I'd like to hear it a few times and make comments. What's so wrong with that?
That is way different than sending out rough mixes in the course of a project.
In terms of sending them out in the middle of the project, maybe in your position in your particular food chain, you can get them. A lot of artists could. I mean, if I was recording Areosmith, I probably would have to do whatever they wanted, or pass on the work. But in my particular possition in my particular food chain, I don't have to give out rough mixes, and I don't, because of the reasons that I mentioned previously. I don't recommend it to other studio owners, for the same reasons.
Bill
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"...it's easier than hitting the kids, and almost as much fun..."
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#1681911 - 06/15/05 02:53 PM
Re: Giving rough's at end of day from PTLE
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Lee Knight
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Originally posted by bpark@prorec.com:
There is no logical reason, most of the time, that anyone needs to take rough mixes home, other than ego.
Rehearsal? What are they doing in the studio? They should be rehearsed before they got there.
Bill
"Go home and write some killer backups behind the bridge."
Write a piano part that ties the guitar and string line together."
"Come up with a shaker part that's not just 8th's in the back, but an actual part that plays off the track."
If you want to tap the resources of the band, why wouldn't you want them to have something to work off of?
I think the beeper thing is ace. The band can do their homework and nothing gets released or "misunderstood" as a finished mix...
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#1681912 - 06/15/05 03:07 PM
Re: Giving rough's at end of day from PTLE
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seclusion
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When I was paying $$$ to record my stuff I always asked for a copy. Man I'd wear out the cassette tape before the next session just listenin over and over. But back then I never consider taking off with it... I'd never know how good it could sound! :p
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#1681913 - 06/15/05 03:15 PM
Re: Giving rough's at end of day from PTLE
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Bill@Welcome Home Studios
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Originally posted by Lee Knight:
[QUOTE]...I think the beeper thing is ace. The band can do their homework and nothing gets released or "misunderstood" as a finished mix... 
Seems as if you are developing the act.
Bill
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