#1681756 - 06/11/05 01:26 AM
Big Thanks!
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Rhino Madness
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Registered: 03/31/05
Posts: 1268
Loc: Oregon
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Phil and the gang:
I really owe you all some Big Thanks! I’ve been lurking here a while and the wealth of talent and knowledge is simply phenomenal  ! Add to that all the generosity of the great many contributors and it is very humbling  !
Like many here, I can wear a multi-hyphenated title: guitarist-composer-songwriter-engineer-producer, albeit not at the level demonstrated in this forum. The more I learn, the more I learn I have yet to learn! And boy do I learn just lurking about this place…
My humble project studio consists of Sonar running on a PC, my sound interface being a MOTU 896HD and I recently acquired M-Audio BX-8 monitors. I just finished building broadband absorbers (thanks to Ethan’s side of the house) but have yet to install them (it might just become this weekend’s project).
Sincerely,
Rhino
P.S. I am making the rounds in some of the other forums to introduce myself so some of you might see some redundancy: sorry about that!
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#1681757 - 06/11/05 04:17 AM
Re: Big Thanks!
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Philip O'Keefe
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Registered: 12/17/00
Posts: 17674
Loc: Riverside,CA,UNITED STATES
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Hi Rhino! Glad to have you aboard.  While lurkers are welcome, don't hesitate to participate / post. 
Oh, and multiple introduction posts on the various forums is always fine - there is a lot of overlap, but not everyoe visits all the forums, so IMO, that's probably a good idea.
Let us know how those traps sound once you put them up. I think you'll be pleased.
And again - Welcome. 
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#1681758 - 06/13/05 04:29 PM
Re: Big Thanks!
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Rhino Madness
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Loc: Oregon
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Hey Phil,
Thanks for the nice welcome! I will definitely let you all know how the sound turns out once I have the treatment done. So far I have 4 traps up and I have 8 more to go (they’re built but not hung yet). I just have to build some brackets to overcome diverse room “features”. I was also planning on using 2” Auralex foam for the first reflection points but it appears from further reading that it won’t be quite enough…  I’ll have to wait and see (or, more appropriately, hear  ). Maybe I’ll have to build 3 more traps for those as well.
Rhino
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#1681759 - 06/13/05 04:51 PM
Re: Big Thanks!
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Philip O'Keefe
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I was also planning on using 2” Auralex foam for the first reflection points but it appears from further reading that it won’t be quite enough…
It might be. If you have plenty of bass trapping in the room, I don't see any reason why Auralex wouldn't work for Mid / HF control of first reflection points in the room. Surface mounted 2" semi-rigid compressed fiberglass or mineral wool is actually a bit more effective than 2" foam, and absorbs lower frequencies, but Auralex is a good product, and when properly used, I see no reason why it can't be part of your acoustical treatment plans. I use some of their products in my room, and it has held up well and works fine for what I needed.
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#1681760 - 06/13/05 05:13 PM
Re: Big Thanks!
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KenElevenShadows
MP Hall of Fame Member
Registered: 12/20/00
Posts: 8624
Loc: Los Angeles,CA,UNITED STATES
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Welcome to the forum, Rhino Madness!
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#1681761 - 06/13/05 05:55 PM
Re: Big Thanks!
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Rhino Madness
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Registered: 03/31/05
Posts: 1268
Loc: Oregon
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Thanks Ken!
Phil: I’m not putting down Auralex products. It’s just that the foam I have is meant to tame the overall ambience of the room and I wonder if it’s gonna be effective enough as first reflection point treatment. I am criticizing my use of the product rather than the product itself.
Rhino
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#1681762 - 06/13/05 06:05 PM
Re: Big Thanks!
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Philip O'Keefe
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Well, if it's 2" Auralex, it's not really going to tame all frequencies equally... it's going to be effective at mid and high frequency absorption. Those corner bass traps should help balance that out, assuming you don't use too much of the Auralex and have enough bass traps - which it sounds like you do.
The idea is to have balanced absorption... and while you can easily overdo it with the mids and highs (especially if the floor is also carpeted), bass trapping is much harder to "overdo".
Do you have any pictures and / or dimensions of the room you're working on? Tell us a bit more about it... dimensions, construction materials, intended uses for the room, etc.
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#1681763 - 06/13/05 07:35 PM
Re: Big Thanks!
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Rhino Madness
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Registered: 03/31/05
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Loc: Oregon
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It's a small room: 14x10x8' with sheet rock walls and ceiling and carpeted floor. When done, it will have two 2’x4'x4” broadband absorbers in each wall-to-wall corner and one 2’x4'x4” broadband absorber in each wall-to-ceiling corner (12 traps total). I also have six 2’x4’x2”foam panels to tame the bouncing of high frequencies and control the first reflection points.
The room is to be used primarily as a mixing room (I mic stuff in the living room which is larger, has a hardwood floor and sounds better overall). I might occasionally record in my mixing room as well and add reverb after the fact to get a livelier sound. Main sounds being recorded are acoustic guitar, electric guitar cab and vocals.
Thanks for your help and comments!
Rhino
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#1681764 - 06/13/05 07:44 PM
Re: Big Thanks!
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Philip O'Keefe
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If you're recording in a second room, you NEED one of these:
Click me.
I'll get back to you with some room treatment suggestions as soon as I can - gotta go do some things right now... good job on the descriptions - thanks!
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#1681765 - 06/13/05 07:50 PM
Re: Big Thanks!
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Philip O'Keefe
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Rhino, how many square feet of Auralex foam do you already have on hand? And can your budget handle the cost of a bit of lumber to make "stand offs" to extend it out from the wall a couple of inches? And finally, is the foam the "wedge shaped" Auralex? IOW, does it look like this:
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#1681766 - 06/13/05 08:02 PM
Re: Big Thanks!
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d-dmusic_dup1
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Registered: 01/03/01
Posts: 553
Loc: Markham
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Acoustic foam can kill your small room. I know I've done it. Especially with carpet already on the floor. You can end up with a room with the highs and high mids sucked out of it and a disproportionate amount of low end. A "boom room."
I've gone with a hard floor soft ceiling and it works beautifully.
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#1681767 - 06/13/05 08:31 PM
Re: Big Thanks!
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Sean Eldon
Senior Member
Registered: 04/19/04
Posts: 462
Loc: Long Island
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Welcome to the board. You have one of the best firewire interfaces that will ever be made.
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#1681768 - 06/14/05 12:19 AM
Re: Big Thanks!
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Rhino Madness
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Loc: Oregon
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Originally posted by Philip O'Keefe: If you're recording in a second room, you NEED one of these:
Click me.   !
Originally posted by Philip O'Keefe:
Rhino, how many square feet of Auralex foam do you already have on hand? And can your budget handle the cost of a bit of lumber to make "stand offs" to extend it out from the wall a couple of inches? And finally, is the foam the "wedge shaped" Auralex?
Originally posted by d-dmusic:
Acoustic foam can kill your small room. I know I've done it. Especially with carpet already on the floor. You can end up with a room with the highs and high mids sucked out of it and a disproportionate amount of low end. A "boom room."
Originally posted by Sean Eldon:
Welcome to the board. You have one of the best firewire interfaces that will ever be made.
Rhino
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#1681769 - 06/14/05 12:46 AM
Re: Big Thanks!
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Sean Eldon
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Registered: 04/19/04
Posts: 462
Loc: Long Island
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driver problems with anything motu? what are you running, exactly? they update pretty often and it's a universal driver file for all of their hardware.
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#1681770 - 06/14/05 02:09 AM
Re: Big Thanks!
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Philip O'Keefe
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Rhino, you're on the right path. Trap every corner you can with those 2x4 traps. Wall corners and ceiling / wall corners. After you've done that, you'll need to address those first reflection points. Here's what you should try.
Get a small, flat mirror and a friend to help you. Sit at the mix position / sweet spot in front of your monitors and have your friend position the mirror aganst various room surfaces. If you can see your monitors reflected in the mirrors, mark that spot - it's a first reflection point. Treat ONLY the first reflection points - you'll probably have them to either side of you, as well as behind the monitors and overhead - with the "foam on standoffs". And IMO, you should only treat about as far back as the mix position - there's no need to go crazy with foam towards the rear half of the room, although with that back wall being so close, IMO, it's better to make it absorptive instead of diffusive.
You do not want to go too crazy with the foam... it WILL kill the life out of the room, and the more mid / HF absorption you use, the more bass trapping you'll need to balance the room out.
Two of those 2X4' sheets overhead, one per side wall and the last two on the back wall would probably be my first inclination, although you might want to put a sheet horizontally on the front wall between the speakers if you can. Offset it from the wall by 2" to increase the low frequency absorption. You can also angle the overhead and side wall panels, but now we're getting a bit tricky insofar as construction techniques. But sometimes angling those side walls to reflect towards a dead rear of the room can be a good approach, and if the room's a bit larger, then the rear should be diffusive IMO.
In general, I agree with the advice you were given. The smaller the room, the deader it should be. A 10 X 8 X 14' room also has some dimensional / modal issues you should be aware of:
Axial mode frequencies (in Hz) for a 14 X 12 X 8' room:
14' = 40.35 / 80.7 / 121.05 / 161.4 / 201.90, etc.
12' = 47.08 / 94.16 / 141.24 / 188.32 / 235.40, etc.
8' = 70.62 / 141.25 / 211.87 / 282.5 / 353.12, etc.
Two things to notice: The large "gaps" between the modes in the 8' dimension can cause problems. And secondly, you'll notice that 141 Hz shows up in two dimensions - that is going to be a problem frequency that the room will tend to reinforce. The "Ethan traps" have a center frequency of about 110 Hz with a one octave Q IIRC, so they should definitely help control that a bit... but if you really want / need to get some more bass absorption into the room, you might want to make some of Ethan's wood bass traps ( click for plans ) for the side walls. Put those at the first reflection points and mount the Auralex on top of them. But honestly, in a room of that size, the fiberglass corner traps and the standoff mounted foam should probably be all you need.
I'm not saying you should ditch the room (although if there's a larger one available... ), but I would certainly argue for drier as opposed to more ambient for a room that size. Just don't overdo it, and only use as much foam as you absolutely have to in order to get the first reflections under control.
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#1681771 - 06/15/05 06:28 PM
Re: Big Thanks!
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Rhino Madness
Platinum Member
Registered: 03/31/05
Posts: 1268
Loc: Oregon
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Originally posted by Sean Eldon:
driver problems with anything motu? what are you running, exactly? they update pretty often and it's a universal driver file for all of their hardware.
I still have the occasional drop-out filled with high pitch noise (mostly when something happens on the network). And once in a while, all audio becomes weak and distorted: I then power cycle the 896HD and everything comes back to normal. Maybe some buffer setting to change? I will keep on looking.
Thanks,
Rhino
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!!!
