#1681675 - 06/08/05 05:05 PM
Weak Vocals to Polished Magic, how do you get there?
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gaotu
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*WARNING: Here I go again with another post about a particular "sound" that I've heard and am interested in how one achieves it.*
I saw a movie the other day called DIG, which was a documentary about 2 bands and their success (or lack thereof). One of the bands was the Dandy Warhols. In one scene they're filming the singer laying a track in the vocal booth. The singing is totally lame: it's weak, somewhat spoken (sing-speaking) and relatively without any discernable pitch. When the finished song is played back in the next clip of the movie, you hear that same track and now it's considerably more powerful and most astonishingly, sounds much more like he was singing and with greater concern for pitch.
I'm wondering what could take his vocal from shabby to awesome like that. (I realize that it's possible that perhaps what I heard in the movie in the first clip was not what was used for the final vocal, but I've heard speak-singing on pro tracks before that somehow sound really powerful, and somehow also like a well sung track even though they are still noticeably spoke-sung, which makes me believe that it probably was the final track. Not to mention, from what I saw, I think that's how he sings anyway.)
I'm on a project studio budget for sure, and have had experience mostly with mid-grade mics, preamps, and other gear. For those of you who are more fortunate than me, I ask of you: Can a preamp and mic (or even a compressor) make enough of a difference to generate the results that I speak of? I'd also like any feedback from anyone who has recorded speak-sing vocals and accomplished a more polished, powerful, and sung-sounding result. Is there some sort of plug-in or something that they may be using?
On a side note: I was recording a metal band last night with a growl-yelling-screaming style vocal (death-metalish you might say). The vocalist was a female, and listening to her raw product, it sounded rather thin and I figured that the result I would get would be unpowerful and hard to get "on top of the mix." On the contrary, and to my pleasant surprise, I found that the results were quite the opposite. They sounded fantastic once I played them back. Very present and powerful. (I wanted to pat myself on the back!) This makes me think that maybe all you need to beef up a track is the right mic/preamp combo. *I was using an AT4033 thru a Focusrite VoiceMaster Pro, and added no other effects or EQ in the DAW.
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#1681678 - 06/08/05 11:36 PM
Re: Weak Vocals to Polished Magic, how do you get there?
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timobrien
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As my programming professor said,
"Garbage In, Garbage Out...."
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#1681679 - 06/09/05 02:07 AM
Re: Weak Vocals to Polished Magic, how do you get there?
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Kaptain Karl
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Wether your gear is top notch or not doesn' t matter. Knowing its strengths and weaknessess will enable you to "finese" the result.
...and a good pair of ears.
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"When I look at the smiles on all the children's faces,,...I just know they're about to jab me with something." -Homer J. Simpson
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#1681680 - 06/09/05 05:44 AM
Re: Weak Vocals to Polished Magic, how do you get there?
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Philip O'Keefe
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I think that in these cases, an assumption should be made that the questioner has a decent baseline of skill (even if they don't) and they're asking about the signal processing aspects of putting the shine on it.
Even if they don't play like Eric or sing like Don Henley (or whoever)...we oughta give them the benefit of the doubt and let them worry about the final "performance" aspect.
A very good point Tedster... however, you know what Bruce says about assumption. 
I prefer it when people give as much information as possible about what they're looking for, what they've tried, what they have available.
If you're looking for a specific sound, then give us some audio examples. Some people may be able to give you some suggestions towards that benchmark, and others might be able to tell you exactly what to do to get "that sound", and sometimes we might not be able to help much at all. But it's probably going to depend on a lot of different factors in many cases... room, singer / sound source, gear, application of the gear, etc. etc. But the more information we have to work with, and the more specific we can get, the more likely we are going to be able to offer useful and relevant advice. Because maybe they have the effects part of the equation down pat, but lack the knowledge of mic technique. Or maybe the problem is the effects... the more info we have, the better IMO.  Otherwise, we're just guessing.
But I do see your point.
Now to address the original question:
I didn't see the show you're referring to, but I have seen lots of similar programs... and it is VERY common for them to take some film or video footage that isn't from the "actual" album tracking sessions or final tracks and have them show up in the program... As a producer, I don't want a camera on my artists when they're supposed to be concentrating on "THE" take and performance. Audio performance that is. The cameras get used on a break from the tracking sessions, or a "filiming session" - not the actual audio recording sessions or during takes - in just about every case I've ever seen or been a part of. So while you MIGHT be correct that this was "the" take that showed up on the final recording that you saw on camera, I'd say that chances are much better than good that it was not.
Of course, I didn't see it, so I have no way of knowing for certain.
Can a preamp and mic (or even a compressor) make enough of a difference to generate the results that I speak of?
In and of itself? Probably not. It's a combination of everything. A great mic can sound a LOT better than a bad one, but that alone isn't going to change a so-so vocalist into a powerhouse singer on CD. Autotune or other pitch correction plug ins might have been used to "help" the pitch aspects, but contrary to popular belief, you can't just take someone who is talking into a mic and autotune it into a beautifully sung melodic line... you've got to get "close enough" to the right pitches with the spoken / sung timbres and pitches so that 1) the software can "track" (detect) the correct pitches and 2) so that you're not trying to shift those pitches too far from the original notes. Otherwise, you're REALLY going to "hear" the processing in a very un-natural way. Or it just won't track the pitches at all. And if it can't track them, it can't correct them.
But if you tracked several performances, and recorded it in a really good sounding room, with a great mic / preamp combo that was well suited to the individual singer's voice, using great mic technique, and comped the best of each of them together into one "strong" take, then applied AT to solidify the pitch here and there (if / as needed), maybe double tracked to that comped take... using compression and EQ in the mix to tailor those vocal tracks, and added some appropriate effects and ambience, then yes, it would all make a big difference. A chain is only as strong as the weakest link, and there really IS NO MAGIC BOX that suddenly makes everything sound great, despite what some ad marketing might have you believe. There is no substitute for good tools AND hard earned knowledge in the application of those tools. There are no shortcuts. Ultimately, the source matters the most, but everything else matters too.
If you have a 4033 and a Focusrite preamp, you have the basic tools to do really good recordings. Would better tools sound better? Almost certainly. But then again, occasionally "lesser" tools can give you exactly the sound you're after too. If I could tell you "go get XYZ and you'll get that sound automatically and easily", I would... but normally, it just doesn't work that way. You've got to have good tools, certainly, but you have to know how to use them and apply them and how to decide which ones to use for specific results. And every tune, every artist, every room and sound source is different... so ultimately, you have to use your judgement, knowledge and your ears.
I think your last paragraph is a good example... you had a track that, by itself, didn't "wow" you because it was "thin"... but in the context of a busy / heavy metal mix, that "thinness" can sometimes be an advantage... since it allows for the vocalist to "cut through" the dense mix and be heard. Of course, if it was TOO thin, then that would be bad too... but again, that's a judgement call. And that's when ear development and experience are priceless. How do yo get those? Work your butt off. Listen to a lot of good music - live and recorded. Ask questions here and on other forums, read a lot, and experiment a lot. It takes time and a lot of work.
One good suggestion regarding listening: Check things in context, and not just solo'ed or with the level un-naturally louder than they'd be in the mix. When you said the vocal didn't wow you at first, how were you monitoring it? That comment makes me wonder if you had it solo'ed or pushed up really loud while you were tracking it. An assumption on my part. Sure, monitor it while you're tracking with it sitting louder than the normal "mix level" so that you can more readily hear mistakes if you like that approach, but when you're getting tones,be sure to also initially check it at a rough mix-appropriate level to see how it's going to "work" when it's properly balanced with the rest of the tracks.
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#1681681 - 06/09/05 07:31 AM
Re: Weak Vocals to Polished Magic, how do you get there?
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Tedster
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Originally posted by Philip O'Keefe: A very good point Tedster... however, you know what Bruce says about assumption.
Q: How do I improve my guitar tone?
A: First learn to play the guitar (implied = "because you probably suck").
Q: How to improve the sound I'm getting on tape with my vocals?
A: Hire someone who knows how to sing (implied = "because you probably suck").
We're judging these people without having heard them!!! We could be talking to very capable people...and the ASSUMPTION is that they suck. I'm not negating that possibility, just pointing out that they're coming here for audio assistance, not a critique of their performance abilities.
Now...on the occasion that they DO post a clip, and their singer sounds like the west end of an eastbound camel, THAT'S the time to say something, er, constructively derogatory.
EDIT...
Rereading the initial post, that seems to be exactly what the poster is talking about, taking a crappy vocal (performance wise, not a great singer singing through a supermarket paging mic) and turning it into a diamond.
Allow me to offer that perhaps the initial vocal was a scratch track, and the singer simply may have not been trying to sound good, for whatever reason, vocal fatigue, sore throat, etc. Then he came back and sang it like he meant it.
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"Cisco Kid, was a friend of mine...(WAH WAH WAH WAHHH!)"
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#1681682 - 06/09/05 10:54 AM
Re: Weak Vocals to Polished Magic, how do you get there?
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gaotu
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Thanks to both Phil and especially Tedster. I hear what you're saying LOUD AND CLEAR Tedster and you were able to comprehend what I was saying.
To answer Phil. What I meant was that the vocal I was listening to coming from the vocalist (not any monitoring) didn't strike me as something that would result in powerful. (Because of my setup and the singer's headphone mix request I was unable to get a clear idea of what was coming out of the "monitoring" end of things while tracking, although I did some thorough checking/setting before hand).
I brought up this topic because I wanted really to know if the use of some preamps, mics or what-have-you are really able to make things a ton better or different. I've heard speak-sing vocals a lot and in pro recordings they usually sound very present and powerful. Hasn't anyone heard them before?
I've never tried to record anyone like that, but I thought a little foreknowledge on the topic would be helpful just in case I ever did have to.
A side note: I realize that a great performer/performance can make all the difference (in any instrument) and that equipment is only part of the equation. I have a friend who I work with that is a great singer. I could probably get a good sound out of his vocals using a $10 Radio Shack mic direct into the board. I know this.
In the studio, theory goes along way. I haven't recorded every instrument or every type of music yet, but I want to be prepared for the time that I have to. I've applied theory and technique suggestions many times without ever having used them before, to find that they worked wonderfully. So share on brothers...
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#1681683 - 06/09/05 11:55 AM
Re: Weak Vocals to Polished Magic, how do you get there?
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Tedster
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No problem, Gaotu. Also, allow me to offer that getting a good performance out of anyone can be a function of a good producer/engineer as well. Recording vocals, especially if you're tracking them on their own just with a band in the headphones (already tracked) can be an intimidating experience. I know. And often, if I were a vocalist going into a studio where the staff has tracked a lot of really good bands, I'd be scared shitless. So, the engineer's, producer's or whoever's role becomes:
Singer..."Blah blah yadda yadda (a little off key, lifeless)"
Engineer..."Let's listen to it..."
(playback)
Engineer..."Not bad, but, I've heard you live. You've got more. Listen to that one phrase..."yadda yadda"...you're pitch was a little iffy. Let's do it again".
After a few takes...and a bit of pep talk, the singer's confidence is improving, and so is his track. Sure...it might still not be the best...but, if it's headed in the right direction, you're on the right track.
You've basically got to be a director, just like someone who's directing a play. You've got to get the actor (singer) to deliver the line the way you think it should be delivered for max effect.
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"Cisco Kid, was a friend of mine...(WAH WAH WAH WAHHH!)"
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#1681685 - 06/09/05 01:56 PM
Re: Weak Vocals to Polished Magic, how do you get there?
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gaotu
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Tedster... I agree and understand.
I've experienced both the shy and the bold type singers in the studio. However, thus far, the good ones have known it, and haven't baulked at the mic. It's the weaker, less talented ones (that know their weaknesses too) and have been mic-shy.
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#1681686 - 06/09/05 05:21 PM
Re: Weak Vocals to Polished Magic, how do you get there?
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Tedster
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Originally posted by gaotu:
Tedster... I agree and understand.
I've experienced both the shy and the bold type singers in the studio. However, thus far, the good ones have known it, and haven't baulked at the mic. It's the weaker, less talented ones (that know their weaknesses too) and have been mic-shy. 
_________________________
"Cisco Kid, was a friend of mine...(WAH WAH WAH WAHHH!)"
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#1681687 - 06/10/05 02:29 PM
Re: Weak Vocals to Polished Magic, how do you get there?
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Philip O'Keefe
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PRECISELY...and most people are assuming that the vocals suck to begin with. I've read that tone from the majority of those responding to this type of thread, and at the risk of becoming unpopular, it pisses the shit out of me.
Me too... and if I've been guilty of coming across that way, it was unintentional, and I sincerely apologise. I definitely don't feel I have any right to have any kind of a "superior" attitude.
And AFAIC, you'll never be "unpopular" Tedster... even if there is something most people disagree with you about, that doesn't mean your opinion shouldn't be considered carefully and responded to respectfully. Same holds true for everyone else, as long as they treat others with respect, as you always do. 
Q: How do I improve my guitar tone?
A: First learn to play the guitar (implied = "because you probably suck").
Q: How to improve the sound I'm getting on tape with my vocals?
A: Hire someone who knows how to sing (implied = "because you probably suck").
We're judging these people without having heard them!!! We could be talking to very capable people...and the ASSUMPTION is that they suck. I'm not negating that possibility, just pointing out that they're coming here for audio assistance, not a critique of their performance abilities.
That's very true Tedster. Again, it's the "assumption" thing.
When I post here, I am sometimes "guilty" of doing something I picked up from Craig... I try to directly address the poster's comments and questions, but I also tend to keep in mind that a lot of people besides the original poster are going to be reading the response, and I tend to toss in extra commentary to try to make the response applicable to a broader range of people than just the original poster. I also tend to occasionally quote one part of a question or comment, and then expound on that topic in a general sense. Those comments may be direct responses to one person's questions or comments, but they might also be more general in nature or even reference or address comments and questions that came from more than one participant in the thread. I know that can be confusing sometimes, but occasionally it's something I am "guilty" of due to a time constraint.
I can't know the skill level and experience level of everyone who posts, and sometimes I may make comments that seem extremely basic to the original poster... but OTOH, someone else who does a search on the topic might find that information useful. I can't assume that the "basic" information is common knowledge to everyone either.
But in any case, I never want to come across as having a "superior" attitude, or like I'm "talking down" to anyone. As always, take what you need, and ignore the rest. And if your question is not answered to your satisfaction, ask for clarification or elaboration.
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#1681688 - 06/10/05 07:27 PM
Re: Weak Vocals to Polished Magic, how do you get there?
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gaotu
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Phil, you didn't, and never seem to, "come off that way." I already understood what you were up to before you explained it here. Thanks for the effort. I've been a member here for nearly 2 years and my knowledge has grown considerably since then. It's nice that you speak to all skill/experience levels as much as possible.
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#1681689 - 06/10/05 11:55 PM
Re: Weak Vocals to Polished Magic, how do you get there?
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Tedster
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Sorry, Phil...I just had me knickers in a knot...and I certainly wasn't singling out this thread, this forum, or anything. If anything, I've found that attitude worse on the guitar forum... (no offense, guitaristos).
I think you know what I'm talking about as far as that thing goes..."How can I get this effect for this gal I'm recording like Ella Fitzgerald had on her vox?"..."Well, Ella's dead, so you can't"....
Sighhh...it's been a long day. Off to sleepy-bye-land...
_________________________
"Cisco Kid, was a friend of mine...(WAH WAH WAH WAHHH!)"
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#1681690 - 06/11/05 05:02 AM
Re: Weak Vocals to Polished Magic, how do you get there?
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Philip O'Keefe
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It's all good guys... thanks for understanding.
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#1681691 - 06/12/05 10:25 AM
Re: Weak Vocals to Polished Magic, how do you get there?
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Chris Carter
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Also, allow me to offer that getting a good performance out of anyone can be a function of a good producer/engineer as well.
I recently was with someone who was mixing a tune, and since vocals tends to be a strength of mine, they were asking me to listen to some tracks and give them advice on how to mix the vocals. They were kind of asking the same question as the poster: These tracks ain't so hot, but how can I put some magic on them? Especially trying to get the vocal to cut through the mix with some impact and presence? Part of the problem was just plain bad engineering; there was so much noise it was just impossible to get any kind of punch using every secret weapon I know of, and some other quirks. But the main problem I said was, "you shouldn't have had her sing like that, you'll never get that type of vocal to cut through this type of track". Maybe I'm being too subtle, but the producer really needs to know what kind of tune they are cutting and know what kinds of vocal tones and vocal nuances will really work well with it. It's not just an issue of having a singer who sounds great, they need to sound great doing the right thing for the tune. I've had many situations where I've been tracking and we'll do a take with the singer and I'll say, "ya know what, that sounded fuckin' KILLER, but I need more _blank_ (or less something or whatever), because when I mix this thing I'm not going to be able to get that take to separate proberly in the mix." Young singers often want to throw their shoes at me, but the more experienced ones know that I mean it and they do it again with whatever adjustment I ask for.
So I guess what I'm saying is that an engineer needs to give you something technically good to work with, but a producer is there for more than just getting a great performance. The producer is also there to get a great performance that will work with (or rather, DESPITE) the equipment and the laws of physics when it comes time to mix.
Did any of that make ANY sense?
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#1681693 - 06/13/05 11:54 AM
Re: Weak Vocals to Polished Magic, how do you get there?
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gaotu
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Yea... that makes perfect sense. As I (the original poster) said - when I recorded these particularly thin sounding vocals I was surprised by the power they had in the mix. Well part of it had to do with the producer there, which in this case was not me. The band was something of a "death metal" band who brought in producer to give direction and assistance, and it made the difference - especially since I'm not really into metal on a personal listening level. He had the singer double her tracks: one high growl and one low growl, and it definitely made a difference.
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#1681694 - 06/16/05 06:58 PM
Re: Weak Vocals to Polished Magic, how do you get there?
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Jedi
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Some great posts on this thread. Phil, that first post of yours was killer.
I'm chiming in just to agree that for me, experiment, work, track, rework, remix, track again, take some time to reflect, experiment some more, track, work, remix ....you get the picture, makes all the difference in the world. I have this idea of intimacy with my songs, gear, room, monitors everything. I like to become so familiar that my tools are like extensions of me. Intimacy is the only word that comes to mind. And yeah you do need some breaks to reflect and approach the work with fresh ears, but I guess what I'm saying is atleast in my experience Borderline Obsession yeilds great results.
Hope this makes some sense to you  ,
Lincoln Ross
Dead Black Jedis
_________________________
"All conditioned things are impermanent. Work out your own salvation with diligence."
The Buddha's Last Words
R.I.P. RobT
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#1681695 - 06/17/05 03:40 PM
Re: Weak Vocals to Polished Magic, how do you get there?
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Philip O'Keefe
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"Borderline Obsession" WBAGNFARB.
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#1681697 - 06/20/05 01:16 PM
Re: Weak Vocals to Polished Magic, how do you get there?
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Jedi
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What in the hell does WBAGNFARB stand for?
_________________________
"All conditioned things are impermanent. Work out your own salvation with diligence."
The Buddha's Last Words
R.I.P. RobT
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#1681698 - 06/20/05 03:14 PM
Re: Weak Vocals to Polished Magic, how do you get there?
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Philip O'Keefe
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Would Be A Good Name For A Rock Band.
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#1681699 - 06/21/05 10:35 AM
Re: Weak Vocals to Polished Magic, how do you get there?
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Jedi
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LOL. I thought it had something to do with naming but I couldn't quite figure out the acronym. Thanks Phil
_________________________
"All conditioned things are impermanent. Work out your own salvation with diligence."
The Buddha's Last Words
R.I.P. RobT
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#1681700 - 06/21/05 10:38 AM
Re: Weak Vocals to Polished Magic, how do you get there?
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KenElevenShadows
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Is that a common internet acronym?
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#1681701 - 06/27/05 08:31 PM
Re: Weak Vocals to Polished Magic, how do you get there?
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Lz12ax7
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While I agree completely with Philip.
Sometimes a "Death Metal" vocal sounds best cut using a dynamic microphone. A Shure SM 7b, take all the damn foam off of the thing and let them hold it, get it right up to their lips. An SM57 can work too.
But still, if they can't "sing" (i don't know if death metal singing should even be called singing lol) You're screwed.
It's been said here as well as other places too many times.
The best of the best cannot take a lousy song and lousy musicianship and make it anything that it isn't already. The best guitar in the world ain't gonna play itself.
peace-ONE
Lz:)
_________________________
If it sounds good, it is good!
Gear is cool but,the player,the source, the room and the microphone placement are the magic!
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#1681704 - 07/08/05 11:21 PM
Re: Weak Vocals to Polished Magic, how do you get there?
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Philip O'Keefe
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Originally posted by Lz12ax7:
While I agree completely with Philip.
Sometimes a "Death Metal" vocal sounds best cut using a dynamic microphone. A Shure SM 7b, take all the damn foam off of the thing and let them hold it, get it right up to their lips. An SM57 can work too.
But still, if they can't "sing" (i don't know if death metal singing should even be called singing lol) You're screwed.
It's been said here as well as other places too many times.
The best of the best cannot take a lousy song and lousy musicianship and make it anything that it isn't already. The best guitar in the world ain't gonna play itself.
peace-ONE
Lz:)
On a similar note, I worked on an album once with GGGarth producing, and he brought in a whole live PA system and had it set up out in the studio. We flipped phase on one stack relative to the other, aimed them both inwards, marked the center spot on the floor with tape, handed the lead singer a SM58, told him to "stand there", and had him go to town. Bleed was surprisingly light, the singer was in a environment that was much more "natural" for him, and when we played it back, no one seemed to mind that my ELA M251's stayed in the mic closet.
To quote myself:
If you have a 4033 and a Focusrite preamp, you have the basic tools to do really good recordings. Would better tools sound better? Almost certainly. But then again, occasionally "lesser" tools can give you exactly the sound you're after too. If I could tell you "go get XYZ and you'll get that sound automatically and easily", I would... but normally, it just doesn't work that way. You've got to have good tools, certainly, but you have to know how to use them and apply them and how to decide which ones to use for specific results. And every tune, every artist, every room and sound source is different... so ultimately, you have to use your judgement, knowledge and your ears.
To which I'll add, sometimes that means using a dynamic mic for the lead vocals.
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