#1681058 - 05/25/05 07:39 AM
Critical listening...audio "wine tasting"?
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Tedster
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When you listen to anything you've recorded, either someone else's material or your own, describe your listening process...as if you were a wine snob describing tasting a glass of fine wine. ...And...also, do you use the same methods for listening to stuff recorded elsewhere?
To me, the art of wine tasting is not to degrade the enjoyment of a glass of wine to a bunch of analytical independent parts, but rather to enhance the enjoyment. Applied to audio, you can nitpick about not rolling off enough such and such on this or that...or you can first consider the recording as a whole.
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#1681059 - 05/25/05 07:48 AM
Re: Critical listening...audio "wine tasting"?
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where02190
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Typically I listen through the various CR monitors, usually at very low volumes, from the CR through the green room system, and in my car, which is basically a stock Toyota system with added sub.
If I'm asked to critique someone leses mix, it's usually through the CR JBL LSR28P's at moderate (70dbA) volume. Typically I am brutally honest, afterall, they asked.,
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Hope this is helpful. NP Recording Studios Analog approach to digital recording.
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#1681060 - 05/25/05 08:17 AM
Re: Critical listening...audio "wine tasting"?
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Tedster
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Originally posted by where02190:
Typically I am brutally honest, afterall, they asked.,
BAD: Your mix sucks toad ass, dude.
BETTER: Your mix sucks toad ass, dude, but if you pan the guitars a bit differently and roll off some of the excessively boomy lows on the kick, you'll be in bidniss...
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#1681061 - 05/25/05 08:37 AM
Re: Critical listening...audio "wine tasting"?
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Billster
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I like to listen to performance aspects first, then consider the technicals.
For instance: First listen - the guitar part is excellent; second listen - the guitar part should move to the left, and take a little EQ so it doesn't mask the piano.
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#1681062 - 05/25/05 08:51 AM
Re: Critical listening...audio "wine tasting"?
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Tedster
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Good thoughts, Bill...
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"Cisco Kid, was a friend of mine...(WAH WAH WAH WAHHH!)"
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#1681063 - 05/26/05 07:59 AM
Re: Critical listening...audio "wine tasting"?
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where02190
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Yes if asked to critique, offering solutions to problematic issues is key.
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Hope this is helpful. NP Recording Studios Analog approach to digital recording.
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#1681064 - 05/27/05 01:32 AM
Re: Critical listening...audio "wine tasting"?
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Dennyf
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Oh, crap. When it comes to something I've engineered, I always find myself listening in "mix" mode. I tend to focus on parts, and have difficulty stepping back to "see the forest," if I may use a cross-sensory metaphor. I mean, I'm more concerned about hearing all the parts, and getting a "good mix" than I am about just listening to the piece as a whole. Difficult to articulate, but it's kinda like being a make-up artist vs. looking at a cover girl. The difference between thinkin' foundation, blush, eye shadow, lipstick, and thinkin' "man, she's HOT!"
When I listen to any other music, I listen to it as a piece rather than a conglomeration of parts. I'm really not very critical of other people's choices.
For example, I've recently had cause to listen "critically" to a song I've liked for decades, Todd Rundgren's "Couldn't I Just Tell You" from Something-Anything, and only now realize that, geez, it's not really a very good recording.
But I never really noticed before, 'cuz it's a great song (to me). 
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#1681065 - 05/27/05 07:46 AM
Re: Critical listening...audio "wine tasting"?
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Billster
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Denny: I kind of understand what you are saying, but how can you achieve a good mix without hearing the big picture? The mix IS the big picture to my thinking.
That's what can make mixing so laborious. Listen to a given part for obvious technical errors (overload, drowning in ambience, muddy), then listen to where it fits in with other parts. If you have to boost the level to get it blended, then you have to go back and double check for new overloads on any post-fader inserts and so on. Now you listened three times and you only have two parts set. Add another part, and you may need to re-balance the first two, and then check your headroom again. and again. and again.
That kind of process makes it easy to miss the real expression of the music, because there is so much technical listening. Listening for the big picture impact usually has to happen after a rest break, or the next day, so you can clear your head of worrying about any particular technical point.
But it beats watching TV 
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#1681066 - 05/27/05 08:17 AM
Re: Critical listening...audio "wine tasting"?
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miroslav
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Originally posted by Tedster:
...or you can first consider the recording as a whole.
Listening to any finishedmix...mine or someone else’s...I always try to listen to the whole thing...the "BIG picture". I prefer to listen to the mood…the emotion…the intent…rather than, “Oh…I think that should have been panned a little more to the right.”… :rolleyes:
Being analytical is something that you are supposed to do while you are still in the mix process.
BUT...once you are done...there has to be some assumption…that what you have….IS what you intended to have.
Now...while you listen to a finished mix...if there are enough serious “analytical distractions" (assumed mistakes)…
...well, maybe that's the sign that it WAS done poorly...and the engineer needs to assess his/her technique/process a bit more.
And we have all been there in our "early days". THAT is the learning process.
But...unless there are very obvious real "mistakes" and very bad engineering decisions that just JUMP OUT at you...
...I think it's a bit pretentious to analyze every nuance of someone else’s mix and assume that what YOU think is a mistake...really IS a mistake.
Think about a painting...
…do you view it and think, "Hmmm...the painter should have placed that blue color brush stroke a little bit closer to the left."...
…do you???
NO...you just view the whole painting…and either it appeals to you or not.
Sure...you may comment on the choice of colors or what not...BUT...you really CAN'T think about that in terms of "mistakes"...rather only as how YOU might have done it.
But again...that borders on pretentiousness.
And besides…I think there is a preoccupation lately, to really “zoom in” on every aspect of a recording.
I think many are guilty of mentally “reverse engineering” other people’s work and then analyzing the shit out of it.
And that comes from using a very “assembled production” SOP…which has become the norm…courtesy “The DAW”…
…and everybody has one!
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miroslav - miroslavmusic.com"Just because it happened to you, it doesn't mean it's important."
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#1681067 - 05/27/05 08:25 AM
Re: Critical listening...audio "wine tasting"?
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Phait
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Are you talking critiquing the song or the mix?
If it's the song, well if it genuinely moves me then I know I'm on to something.
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#1681068 - 05/27/05 02:59 PM
Re: Critical listening...audio "wine tasting"?
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Tedly Nightshade
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I try to just listen to the music and the song and connect with the intentions of the performers.
When I hear something particularly refreshing, I groove on it for a while and express my appreciation for such a rare pleasure. This might be a trumpet that sounds natural for once, or that you can really hear the place it was tracked, or what a nice chord change that is. If a mood has been set.
Then inevitably I have to take notice of what is preventing me from really getting into the music. Could be a mix thing, could be the song, or part of it, could be an uncommitted performer, could be an "assembly issue".
After a while I have a subjective impression of whether this is something I want to hear again, and if so what kind of time and place would be the most enjoyable- some stuff I have to be in a certain mood, some stuff is best not listened to on the reference system! Some stuff requires your full attention, other stuff is better for cleaning house or something. Also, if there's anybody I know who would especially enjoy it or who really needs to hear it.
Something like that.
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#1681069 - 05/27/05 07:21 PM
Re: Critical listening...audio "wine tasting"?
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AudioMaverick
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In the few mixes I have done, I've had the opportunity to first here the artists play in an entertainment or non-recording mode. That way, I get to feel for how they sound outside the recording environment. It gives me a mental picture of how they sound live, and how they should sound when I am mixing them.
When I listen to the mix, I listen in mono for the emotional feel of the song -- "If it doesn't have the groove, it isn't going to move." I want to know if the song took on its soul. Only after the track feels like a good cut do I like to start working on the technicals. I'd rather do a new take to get a good baseline. I don't think there is any sense doing all the edits and touch ups if the song wasn't going to be delivering the emotion of the tune. Many live performance have erors in them. But, the tunes have life, which rises above the technical errors. So, far, this has worked very well for me. The only time I didn't follow this formula was when I recorded comedian piano player. I mic'd the pinao, the crowd and him, and held on for 2 hours of wonderful insanity. He did his performance and caught it.
I read this EQ article back in 1998 where this recording engineer (sorry, don't remember who) told this story of his schooling days. The instructor, after hours of this guy mixing, suddenly reachs over and zeros out all his faders. He told the student somehting like, "No one's toes were tapping in this room. You're doing something wrong." I don't want to have to do this during mixing, if I can help it (and, I have a few times). To do that, I need to know how the musicians sound when they are not in the company of a console. I give me a guage as to whether they are (and I am) doing the songs justice.
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#1681070 - 05/27/05 08:56 PM
Re: Critical listening...audio "wine tasting"?
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Tedly Nightshade
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Originally posted by AudioMaverick:
In the few mixes I have done, I've had the opportunity to first here the artists play in an entertainment or non-recording mode. That way, I get to feel for how they sound outside the recording environment. It gives me a mental picture of how they sound live, and how they should sound when I am mixing them.
... I need to know how the musicians sound when they are not in the company of a console. I give me a guage as to whether they are (and I am) doing the songs justice.
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A WOP BOP A LU BOP, A LOP BAM BOOM!
"There is nothing I regret so much as my good behavior. What demon possessed me that I behaved so well?" -Henry David Thoreau
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