#1680657 - 05/16/05 02:55 AM
Vocal tracks on DAW - What is your process?
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Keysking
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When im producing/recording a vocal track.. there are a number of ways to go about it...
one option is just to keep recording numberous takes on different channels then compile them onto one comped track.
another on protools is to use the same track but different playlists... same kinda process.
back in the day on tape we would record a few good tracks... pick the best one and then slowly fix that one up...
do you build one take or do you keep getting takes and pick the best bits...
take in mind... im not a beginner at this... im just interested at how all different folks do it.
how do you folks go about it?
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#1680658 - 05/16/05 07:45 AM
Re: Vocal tracks on DAW - What is your process?
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miroslav
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Comping from a dozen tracks is a pretty common approach.
I've done coming using maybe 2-3 tracks.
However, when I do my own vox these days...I try do one complete take.
Usually, I'll record two takes to two different tracks.
Then I'll listen to the playback, and pick the worst of the two, and then record another take to replace it.
Playback again and listen to both...pick the worst of the two, and then record over that.
At that point...I'll stop and just pick the BEST of the two, and erase th other one...done.
So all in all, I've done a total of 4 takes...and sometime, it may take a couple more "replacement" takes...
...but when I'm done, I'm only left with one take...the best of the 4-6 bunch.
On rare occasion...if I screw up one word or phrase...
...I'll just punch in...but I hate doing that.
It's a lot of work comping to one track from a dozen tracks. Sometimes the splices fall into place nicely...but other times, no matter how well you cut…they just don't sound right...
...because they came from another take, and the inflection is all wrong.
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miroslav - miroslavmusic.com"Just because it happened to you, it doesn't mean it's important."
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#1680659 - 05/16/05 07:51 AM
Re: Vocal tracks on DAW - What is your process?
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Keysking
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Thanks for the reply miroslav.
How about the rest of you lot?
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#1680660 - 05/16/05 08:39 AM
Re: Vocal tracks on DAW - What is your process?
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wireline
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Just my opinion...
I like to get ONE good track, then punch in any 'rough spots" before the vocalist leaves their spot in the tracking room...I used to comp tracks using anywhere from 3-10 takes from which to choose, but it just seemed to take something away from any emotion of the original or best take...
Both ways are just as 'right' as they are'wrong'...so whatever works for you I think.
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So What ARE We Gonna Do With 8 Tracks...Fire the Arranger?
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#1680661 - 05/16/05 09:20 AM
Re: Vocal tracks on DAW - What is your process?
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where02190
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I start by spending some time with the singer, first doing scales to warm up, then on the particular tune we're going to do and having him/her sing through the various parts with either piano or guitar accompanyment, and making not of difficult parts. too many times I see wasted time in the vocal booth because a singer is not properly warmed up and/or prepared.
Once I feel they are ready to track, I'll play the song through a couple times and record, making notes as I go. If I feel after a few takes I can comp a majority of the song, I'll do that, and then we work on punchin fixes from there. Otherwise, I'll break down the song by section or even line, and record each bit by bit.
I try not to let the singer be in teh booth for more than 20 minutes at a time, and prefer it to be just them and I, no other distractions. I keep the feel light and make every effort to make them as relaxed and comfortable as possible. Getting them in the mood is as important as geting them prepared and warmed up. I advise them about posture, and educate about the "Elvis pose" and it's benefits in power and control. I do NOT hang a mic above their heads so they have to tilt their head back to sing, as we often see in those horrible M-TV shows. It's the worst position for a singer, constricting the windpipe and thus airflow across the vocal cords. the Elvis pose, shoulders relaxed, head levelbody slightly slumped forward, allows maximum airflow through the esaphogus, giving the singe much more power, depth and range. I place the mic generally aiming at their chin, not the mouth. This eliminates tons of mouth noises, gives a warmer fuller tone, and prevents the singer from wanting to put their head up.
The big key is to get them relaxed and in the mood. Proper lighting, a good selection of light teas, room temperature water, 50-60% relative humidity in the booth, all add to a singers experience.
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Hope this is helpful. NP Recording Studios Analog approach to digital recording.
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#1680662 - 05/16/05 09:27 AM
Re: Vocal tracks on DAW - What is your process?
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Lee Knight
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I like to have the vocalist run down the tune 5, 6, or 7 times. We discuss things in between takes with the lyric sheet making notes for the next take.
These would be the same track, different playlists, PTLE.
I'll comp when the vocalist isn't there. I find they're too caught up on details to be helpful with this and are always happy with the comp I've made.
The comping consists of copying the winning take onto a second track and pasting the better bits from the other takes into the 2nd track.
I usually derive any doubles I need from the other takes. Sometimes additional tracking is needed to get the doubles we need.
I think the reason they're happy is because we've talked so much before, during, and after, and have come to a mutual understanding of what we're trying to acheive with the take...
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#1680663 - 05/16/05 09:58 AM
Re: Vocal tracks on DAW - What is your process?
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Keysking
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These are all good folks.
anyone with any different methods?
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#1680664 - 05/16/05 10:58 AM
Re: Vocal tracks on DAW - What is your process?
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Michael Hart
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I thnk your 2 main methods are the comp route or punching in on the good take. I've tried both, and most often I get 85-90% and then spend an equal amount of time just to get 3-5 punch-ins. Checking another take may reveal that one of those vocal lines that needs redoing can be overdubbed from another take.
The main thing from a mixing point of view is to make sure you have very consistent levels for lead vocal - and that the sonic character of the performance is uniform. Then the vocal will sit in the mix properly as you listen back - otherwise it will bug you and you can start overcompressing the vocal to solve either weak recording or not up to standard performance. Getting the vocal nice and up front, relaxed and in pitch with good sonic qualtiy and right levels is an art. A good preamp is essential for a lead vocal - as is a suitable vocal mike for that singer. Also, getting the right distance on the mike is important too. 1/2 and inch will make a difference on a good quality mike like the NTK.
Michael Hart
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#1680665 - 05/16/05 11:02 AM
Re: Vocal tracks on DAW - What is your process?
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miroslav
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I don't know about other vocalists...but after about 1/2 dozen takes...my voice will start to change a bit.
It's not that I can't sing beyond 6 takes...it's just that there is a certain "freshness" that can only be had in those first few takes....and I prefer to get that sound, rather than what comes after.
If I have to do more than 6 takes...I usually like to take a break for about an hour...and then come back to it.
I'm getting more and more into not comping...or even punching in...because there something about a single, continuous take that you just can not get from comping/punching.
But comping is a very common approach for many session for getting a final "track".
Heck...add Autotune to that...and you can give anyone a perfect vocal "track"! 
_________________________
miroslav - miroslavmusic.com"Just because it happened to you, it doesn't mean it's important."
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#1680666 - 05/16/05 11:33 AM
Re: Vocal tracks on DAW - What is your process?
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Lee Knight
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Originally posted by miroslav:
I'm getting more and more into not comping...or even punching in...because there something about a single, continuous take that you just can not get from comping/punching.
Having said that, I do make notes as to where the "really cool bit" was and try to use that if it works.
The other takes are my "disaster recovery" also. If a phrase isn't up to par on the winner take, well I'm going fishing through the other 5 or 6 for a replacement.
But still, I try to have 1 take that the majority of the material is coming from.
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#1680667 - 05/16/05 11:52 AM
Re: Vocal tracks on DAW - What is your process?
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miroslav
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I think for some people...comping is almost a given.
IOW...they will always record a bunch of takes with the intention to later comp one "perfect" take.
They probably don't even stop to listen to the takes before recording others...
…or....
...they do the opposite, and listen TOO closely to each of the takes, and if they hear even a teeny, tiny "glitch"...they plan on comping it out…so, let’s record more takes. 
_________________________
miroslav - miroslavmusic.com"Just because it happened to you, it doesn't mean it's important."
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#1680668 - 05/16/05 11:59 AM
Re: Vocal tracks on DAW - What is your process?
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Lee Knight
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I do always record multiple takes though. You never know when the singer is going to top the previous stuff through suggestions, etc. Sometimes it ends up that take 1 is the 1. That's even better.
I like the singer being able to relax. To know they've got a few shots at it. I also want them to know that if we've GOT to comp, the end results will suffer so "give me eveything you've got, and a little more".
Make it real baby...
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#1680669 - 05/16/05 12:18 PM
Re: Vocal tracks on DAW - What is your process?
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miroslav
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Well yeah...like I mentioned in my earlier post...I'll do about 4-6 takes...but I’ll only have two actual tracks at any one time...always recording the next take over the worse one of the previous two.
And even though I am recording to tape…I would be doing it this way to DAW also.
Sure...if working in a DAW...you might think there is no reason to "erase" ANY of the takes, good or bad...why not save ‘em all “just in case”…???
But then, when you end up with a dozen or more...it opens up the door to some serious nitpicking between all those takes...IMO.
I'm trying to force myself into commitment, a lot sooner in the process...rather than recording four dozen tracks…just so I can comp down to maybe 16 final tracks... 
_________________________
miroslav - miroslavmusic.com"Just because it happened to you, it doesn't mean it's important."
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#1680670 - 05/16/05 12:22 PM
Re: Vocal tracks on DAW - What is your process?
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Matt.Hepworth
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It will depend on the project, but typically we'll record two good takes, make a safety of the one of those that's better and punch any locations on the track that need a touchup. The second vocal take is often used as a double and is edited as necessary.
In contrast, on some projects, we'll do multiple takes line by line and build a supreme comp from the 10-20 tracks.
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No matter how good something is, there will always be someone blasting away on a forum somewhere about how much they hate it.
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#1680671 - 05/16/05 12:26 PM
Re: Vocal tracks on DAW - What is your process?
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gearmike
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I've been a real hard ass lately. Really pushing to get a track in one take. I like the tension that builds when you know you can't just punch or comp around a phrase.
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Seriously, what the f*ck with the candles? Where does this candle impulse come from, and in what other profession does it get expressed?
-steve albini
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#1680672 - 05/16/05 01:53 PM
Re: Vocal tracks on DAW - What is your process?
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Kendrix
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I use Cubase in conjunction with my AW4416.
I send all vocal takes- usually 6-8 in to diffrent tracks in cubase when tracking. Comping there is way easier than on the AW4416.
I do my comps off the differnt tracks. Sometimes have to go back and track certain lines over again to be satified. In Cubase I tweak the gain on each segment (lately i compress only 3 db or so goin in). Sometimes i even mess with fades at the end of lines. Im amazed at how this can smooth out the dynamics better than a dumb compressor can.
Then I digitally transfer the comped result including all gain tweaks and section fades back to an AW track. Then I mix.
On some songs very little comping /tweaking is necessary. On some songs it becomes several hours of work. If i could progam a robot to do what i do here it would be worth its weight in gold... and then some.
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#1680673 - 05/16/05 05:56 PM
Re: Vocal tracks on DAW - What is your process?
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Chris Carter
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I try to avoid comping as much as physically possible. Occasionally you get a singer where it works, but the vast majority of the time it's not the best approach. I try and get one really great take and then I'll punch in. If I have to punch I try to make it as big of a chunk as I can, like a verse, or half a verse, or at worst a line or two. Never less than that if I can help it.
The problem with comping is that you don't really have the opportunity to fine-tune the performance. As a producer, the singer is relying on me to get them to deliver that performance that they just can't give on their own (or with some other producer!), and I have feedback after every take or punch. I mean DETAILED feedback about what I need them to do emotionally or physically to get the part right on the money. It's just not possible to do that comping. You can't do a big long take and then give the singer 8000 adjustments you need them to make in various parts and say "do it again". I often have 6 things I need the singer to adjust on one line and that's hard enough for them to keep up with. As well, if you comp, you really don't know what you have until you comp and that's just not accurate enough for the records I cut. We have to KNOW it's a keeper. I can't say, "oh, well we have good stuff here and good stuff there so when I stick it all together I guess it will be good."
That all said, I think it depends on what kinds of records you are making as well. If you are a studio for hire and you have people coming in trying to cut stuff relateively fast (like a tune in a day or something), then sometimes comping is the only realistic way to get it done.
Where, you said "I try not to let the singer be in teh booth for more than 20 minutes at a time"... 20 minutes? Wow, that's some fast tracking!!! I try to schedule vocal sessions for 3 to 4 hours depending on the singer. Once in a while I get a singer than can only go maybe 2.5 hours before their voice starts changing. A typical tune for me requires at least 5 and as many as 8 hours, so it gets broken up over 2 to 3 days.
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#1680674 - 05/16/05 06:33 PM
Re: Vocal tracks on DAW - What is your process?
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Philip O'Keefe
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For me, it's always up to the artist, and I work with whatever method makes them happy.
Some people like to do a few complete passes and then pick their favorite (complete) take. Others prefer doing several passes and then do a comp. When I do that, I always use playlists, because it is quicker / easier to comp that way IMO. I just create a new playlist for the comp and then flip back and forth between the playlists and grab the good sections and copy / paste them to the comp playlist.
Other clients like to do a complete take and then punch in on sections they want to improve upon, and still others prefer to go until they make a mistake and immediately stop and fix it.
Personally, I really don't have a problem with any of those methods, and whatever makes the artist feel the most comfortable is what I go with.
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#1680675 - 05/16/05 06:41 PM
Re: Vocal tracks on DAW - What is your process?
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gearmike
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Hey Phil...
I've NEVER used the playlist feature in PT. How do you see all the different takes at once?
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Seriously, what the f*ck with the candles? Where does this candle impulse come from, and in what other profession does it get expressed?
-steve albini
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#1680676 - 05/16/05 09:14 PM
Re: Vocal tracks on DAW - What is your process?
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Keysking
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Originally posted by gearmike:
I've NEVER used the playlist feature in PT. How do you see all the different takes at once?
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#1680677 - 05/16/05 10:49 PM
Re: Vocal tracks on DAW - What is your process?
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where02190
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Originally posted by Chris Carter:
The problem with comping is that you don't really have the opportunity to fine-tune the performance.
Not comping while the singer is there and warmed up unless you are absoluterly 110% sure you got everything you need can be a huge mistake. I do it while I have the performer and make absolutely certain I got a killer track. Otherwise it can be impossible to get a sound to match at a later date.
_________________________
Hope this is helpful. NP Recording Studios Analog approach to digital recording.
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#1680678 - 05/16/05 11:14 PM
Re: Vocal tracks on DAW - What is your process?
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Keysking
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thats very true where02190.
sometimes a singer can stuff up the same bit on every take. or none of the other takes fit with the feel of the take you are using.
i also find that having the singer there when comping helps both of us. it helps them realise what they need to improve on and it also helps me to make sure they are happy and to feel like they have some control over their final result.
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#1680679 - 05/16/05 11:43 PM
Re: Vocal tracks on DAW - What is your process?
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d gauss
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<>
hit record. have the singer sing. it's only rock n roll....
-d. gauss
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#1680680 - 05/17/05 12:55 AM
Re: Vocal tracks on DAW - What is your process?
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Mr Darling
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I'm lucky to do most of my work with one of the best vocalists around, so it is easier.
We usually do complete takes (or cut down verse 1 , chrs 1 etc.. track depended) and almost never do punch ins.. I think for most singers it is much harder to achieve the same feel without 'warming' up to the track and singing some before... Though sometimes, if we're really stuck on a word, or part of a verse , I'll record that as a take (so sort of punch in)
I take the same approach with most vocalists I work with.
Danny
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#1680681 - 05/17/05 02:44 AM
Re: Vocal tracks on DAW - What is your process?
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zele
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Usually a complete pass of the song..
then back to I/O punches settings..
then I copy that "completed" vocal --
leaving us with a dry vocal track & a secondary to apply effects ,eq. comps, etc.
next another pass ..doubling of the first vocal...then a copy of that track
then harmonies and sweeting---averaging 10+ tracks.
Depends on the clients budget.........
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#1680682 - 05/17/05 07:18 AM
Re: Vocal tracks on DAW - What is your process?
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wireline
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Originally posted by where02190: Originally posted by Chris Carter:
The problem with comping is that you don't really have the opportunity to fine-tune the performance.
Not comping while the singer is there and warmed up unless you are absoluterly 110% sure you got everything you need can be a huge mistake. I do it while I have the performer and make absolutely certain I got a killer track. Otherwise it can be impossible to get a sound to match at a later date.
_________________________
So What ARE We Gonna Do With 8 Tracks...Fire the Arranger?
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#1680684 - 05/17/05 10:09 AM
Re: Vocal tracks on DAW - What is your process?
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Lee Knight
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Originally posted by where02190:
Not comping while the singer is there and warmed up unless you are absoluterly 110% sure you got everything you need can be a huge mistake. I do it while I have the performer and make absolutely certain I got a killer track. Otherwise it can be impossible to get a sound to match at a later date.
I work hard at keeping a tally of working bits as I'm tracking. Then I'll have the singer work just on the phrases where I don't have what we need.
Then I'll comp later. I do a better comp, a comp that they're happier with, when they're not there to confuse the issue.
I think our egos are so connected to our voices that it's very hard for us to be objective with our own vocal performances on a detail level.
When I play a comp I'm happy with for a singer, they light up. It's the ego again. "Wow, I'm really a rockin' singer!" But ask them to tell you which phrase they like out of 4 or 5 and watch out... hyperinsecurity sets in and it's anything but constructive.
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#1680685 - 05/17/05 10:24 AM
Re: Vocal tracks on DAW - What is your process?
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where02190
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Often times with pop tunes, I get dbl tracks for chorus's, etc., from the multiple passes as well. The same is true for guitar parts, where we'll do multiple passes, and use a couple of them in a doubletrack manner when we feel it works.
The thing with vocalists is they will rarely sound the same on two different occasions, which is why I comp with them there, to ensure we have a solid keeper track for that particular song. Otherwise, even if the gear remains untouched, the singer can be in a completelyd different mental/spiritual/physical state and never sound like that again, making comping parts from a different day in seemlessly very difficult.
I love doing vocals, even with a medeocre singer. I'm (so I'm told) an excellent coach, and since I am a singer myself, I can talk to them in a language they understand. I kep the pace casual, taking my cues from them as to how fast or slow they want to move, making sure they are not just comfortable, but in the zone so to speak, feeling ready to really let it all go emotionally. I keep their actual singing time short, getting them out of the booth every 15-20 minutes for a listen, water break, etc., so they don't burn out. HP mix is set up beforehand, so we don't spend time and energy getting them comfortable. I typically do not put effects into the cans but have them at the ready, so if they ask, it's a twist of a knob and they are happy. It's all about comfort. I talk to and get to know the singer beforehand, so the voice over the comm isn't a stranger. I, without coming off as nozy, try to find out what their fav, colors, smells, etc., are, so I can create an artistic environment for them to release their creative energies in.
In a nutshell, I do whatever it takes to get the artist to make magic.
_________________________
Hope this is helpful. NP Recording Studios Analog approach to digital recording.
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#1680686 - 05/17/05 12:25 PM
Re: Vocal tracks on DAW - What is your process?
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miroslav
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Originally posted by where02190:
The thing with vocalists is they will rarely sound the same on two different occasions, which is why I comp with them there, to ensure we have a solid keeper track for that particular song.
And I find that even when sung on the same day...if you do a dozen takes in a row...I can guarantee that for most people, the 10th/11th/12th take will not sound anything like the 1st/2nd/3rd...
…which is why I try to not go past 4-6 takes without at least an hour break in between.
Yeah...you can comp the timing fairly easily...but the feel...the inflection...the edge or the subtlety…will not be the same from too many takes.
With instruments, it's not as much of a problem to get the same sound from take 1 and take 12...though I hate splicing together a whole song like some patchwork quilt.
You know:
"Hey...the first 3 notes on take 2 were perfect...and so were the next 4 notes on take 6...and lets' add them to the last 5 notes on take 11..."
...etc. :rolleyes:
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miroslav - miroslavmusic.com"Just because it happened to you, it doesn't mean it's important."
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