#1679676 - 04/25/05 02:11 AM
How do you get a band to "gel" when they're separately tracking?
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gaotu
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Hypothetical Situaiton (because it may happen):
My small studio has 8 mic inputs (as of now), but a drummer (who will be using up all 8 mic inputs) needs to hear the guitar player or bass player along with him.
How does he get to hear the guitarist/bassist without experiencing mic bleed (into the drum mics) from an amp?
My thoughts: I have a Johnson amp simulator and was thinking that I could have the guitarist/bassist plug into that and then put the headphone output into a headphone amp and have both the guitarist/bassist and the drummer listen through headphones.
Are there any alternate suggestions? What problems do you forsee with the arrangement I suggested?
Are there any other mic-input-limitations/musician-listening-requirement situations that could cause a fuss that I missed?
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#1679677 - 04/25/05 03:43 AM
Re: How do you get a band to "gel" when they're separately tracking?
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where02190
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1. Use less drums mics. Great drum sounds can be had for any genre with 3-4 mics properly placed, provided the room and kit are tuned accordingly. This allows you to track bass and guitar with the drums, my ideal situation.
2. Get a small mixer for monitoring. Plug tghe guitar (mic'd or through a simulator) and bass (direct) into it, as well as the out(s) of your DAW, however be aware of issues with latency.
3. Buy more gear.
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Hope this is helpful. NP Recording Studios Analog approach to digital recording.
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#1679678 - 04/25/05 06:12 AM
Re: How do you get a band to "gel" when they're separately tracking?
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alcohol_
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I use a DI for bass and a couple of Sans Amp boxes for the guitar, send them through the mixer and through the headphone amp. I use the Vic Firth headphones designed to block outside sound for the drummer.
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#1679679 - 04/25/05 11:13 AM
Re: How do you get a band to "gel" when they're separately tracking?
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d gauss
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let it bleed. set everybody up in the same room, play live, no headphones. get a good take and the bleed don't matter, cause you aren't gonna be replacing anything, only adding later. that's how you get it to "gel."
-d. gauss
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#1679680 - 04/25/05 01:48 PM
Re: How do you get a band to "gel" when they're separately tracking?
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KenElevenShadows
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Hmmmm....I always *want* a little bleed in the drum mics. I think it sounds great!!
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#1679681 - 04/25/05 04:46 PM
Re: How do you get a band to "gel" when they're separately tracking?
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Philip O'Keefe
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Assuming everyone can actually PLAY well, and doesn't frequently screw up, a little bleed can be a "good" thing. 
Whenever possible, I like to track the rhythm section together... at least have SOMEONE play along with the drummer in real time, whether we end up keeping that performance or not. IMO, it just helps them insofar as musical interaction.
You can go with fewer mics on the kit, or use a submixer for monitoring or whatever, but I do generally prefer getting the bass / rhythm chordal instrument (keys or guitars) and drums tracked simultaneously... along with a scratch vocal too, if at all possible. The more it sounds and feels like the whole BAND going for it all at once, the happier drummers tend to be - and the better they tend to play.
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#1679682 - 04/25/05 09:35 PM
Re: How do you get a band to "gel" when they're separately tracking?
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Tedly Nightshade
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What where said- no need to use 8 mics on the drums.
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#1679683 - 04/26/05 12:48 AM
Re: How do you get a band to "gel" when they're separately tracking?
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gaotu
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Thanks for the feedback so far. Phil (and anyone else), question though, do you have isolation booths or sub-sections to your studio so that these members are sonically separated. I definitely don't have that.
How do you deal with a little bleed from a take your not keeping? What if the part is drastically changed later. Is that a problem. What about when you apply compression, EQ and such to a track that has bleed in it?
I've done live recordings with tons of bleed so I know what's up, but I don't like that - I fell like I don't have the control I want over the sound.
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#1679684 - 04/26/05 01:13 AM
Re: How do you get a band to "gel" when they're separately tracking?
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Philip O'Keefe
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Originally posted by gaotu: Thanks for the feedback so far. Phil (and anyone else), question though, do you have isolation booths or sub-sections to your studio so that these members are sonically separated. I definitely don't have that.Then make it. Yes, I have a seperate tracking room and a couple of iso booths, and I'm not afraid to use them if I want the seperation (read: the band MAY make some mistakes  ), and sometimes I won't - it just depends on the players and the sound we're after. My comment about "making" a room situation work for you was completely serious. I don't know what your home / studio situation is like, but if you can arrange access to more than just the studio area, look around and put it to use. Aim a guitar into a heavily filled clothes closet, maybe stack some sofa pillows around an amp... run a long mic line into another room and stick an amp in there. Bathrooms can offer some interesting sounds. Run a line to an amped speaker in an empty garage and mic that up... feed an aux send to that speaker and grab a little "real" room and stick it on something. Use what you have available, experiment a bit and learn to know what you have on hand and you might be surprised by some of the things you can do with what you already have available. How do you deal with a little bleed from a take your not keeping? What if the part is drastically changed later. Is that a problem. IMO, "everyone in the same room, with more than minor bleed happening" is best reserved for parts that are very well arranged in advance and fairly firmly set, and for players that can get through the song more often than not without blowing it. If I can't have that, I normally would opt to play it safe and have them play together simultaneously, but with many / most sound sources isolated. What about when you apply compression, EQ and such to a track that has bleed in it? Things are going to interact. But then again, EQ is interactive from track to track when you mix anyway. Yes, if the bass amp is bleeding into the drums, you're going to have some issues when you go to EQ the drums... the big trick is to get everything sounding the way you want it to in the room, and make sure you've captured that to tape (disk, whatever) so it doesn't require a ton of EQ at mixdown. It's a different style of recording than the "everything's isolated so we can have maximum flexibility to process / mangle / adapt it later" approach. Each can be cool... but you have to decide when one approach is more appropriate than the other. Either way, isolated or all in the same room, I still like to have the rhythm section playing together at once whenever possible. I've done live recordings with tons of bleed so I know what's up, but I don't like that - I fell like I don't have the control I want over the sound. Then use what you have available and try to get things isolated. Like I said, that approach is completely viable too. But again, if I can get 'em playing together - even if I have to resort to isolating things, or prefer isolation without bleed for a particular project, I like the feel of players playing together and off of one another.
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#1679686 - 04/26/05 01:44 PM
Re: How do you get a band to "gel" when they're separately tracking?
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KenElevenShadows
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I don't have gobos. I record drums in the living room, stick the bass amp facing away from the drum kit in the adjoining kitchen, and the guitar in the hallway or one of the bedrooms. I control the amount of bleed by how far open the doors are and where I place the amps. I get enough isolation that i can overdub if necessary, yet still get enough bleed from everything to get everything to gel.
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#1679687 - 04/26/05 02:17 PM
Re: How do you get a band to "gel" when they're separately tracking?
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where02190
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I stopped tracking a bass mic about a year and a half ago when i got my remix boxes. Now I only track a DI, and when mix time comes I send that DI through the remix box to the amp setup and dial in at my leasure the exact amp sound I want. Saves time during tracking as well as tracks, and in this situation saves bass amp bleed.
We've got several gtr cabs isolated throughout the studio in remote areas, unused closet space mostly. I can connect to them from pretty much anywhere in the building, so I can put a couple guitar players, bass and drums in the same room, without problems with bleed, and still capture killer keeper tracks. I ahve the guitarist bring his/her head or combo, and run it to one or more of these isolated cabs.
We also make good use of CC video for eye contact. I've got several cameras and monitors in each of the rooms that doesn't have direct line of sight.
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Hope this is helpful. NP Recording Studios Analog approach to digital recording.
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#1679688 - 04/27/05 12:45 PM
Re: How do you get a band to "gel" when they're separately tracking?
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freelance
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Some very good replys. I must agree that the best way (perhaps the only way) to get a band to "gel" when recording is to record the band together (with a scratch vocal).
There will be some bleed - but that's reality. As was already mentioned, creative use use pillows, packing blankets, closets, other rooms, etc. can all help with bleed.
Used cubicle walls can be found fairly low cost (but you need a pick-up or SUV to transport - and that take up a lot of space).
Some 2x4's, plywood, and fabric (such as burlap)and some basic carpenter skills (anyone who owns a studio needs basic carpenter skills) can create some very nice dobos.
We built several 3' & 4' wide (4' high)dobos which are painted plywood on one side with fabric on the other side. They can be used stand alone or clamped together. We have frames on top that we can slide plexiglass in (if we need line of sight)or we can slide another sheet of plywood (if we need more treatment) although in most cases the 4" high is plenty and we realey use the top frame..
We can dismantle the frame for easy transport and storage and even when left up the relatively short 3" or 4' width takes up limited space.
The materials were well under $100 and labor was not bad at all (and it looks better than piles of pillows or packing blankets nailed to the walls.
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#1679689 - 04/30/05 03:06 PM
Re: How do you get a band to "gel" when they're separately tracking?
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gaotu
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These are great replies... Great ideas. Thanks so much.
My studio is in my house and my house, well, it's funky shaped and my studio room is very small. I'm curious as to get feedback from all of you that have replied earlier. Do you not think it's a good idea to have a guitar or bass player play into an amp simulator and have the drummer listen through headphones to keep them together?
I can keep a dry track or not from the guitar/bass - but that's not the issue. Unless the bass sound of the player is particular to his/her rig, I do prefer using a tube DI that I have. The sound is great, so miking an amp isn't something I'm really going to do for the bass anyway most of the time.
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#1679690 - 04/30/05 05:51 PM
Re: How do you get a band to "gel" when they're separately tracking?
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Philip O'Keefe
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Okay, so if you're going to be running the bass direct, that's one less thing that you have to worry about from a "bleed" standpoint. FWIW, I almost always run bass direct, although I've been known to also track a mic on the bass cab to a seperate track on many occasions.
Amp sims are a controversial subject.
I own a few - hardware and software, and I appreciate them for certain things, but OTOH, I'm not about to dump my various tube guitar amps. Other people - and many guitarists fall into that camp - can't stand the things, and would rather walk on their lips through busted glass (to quote Don Henley ) than give up their tube amps. OTOH, some people happily use sims exclusively.
As a "hack guitarist" (I've been playing for decades, but I'm not all that great   ), my opinions on the matter might not line up with everyone else's, but for me, amp sims are great for apartment dwellers and others who need to track or practice in silence without disturbing the rest of the family and / or the neighbors. I also personally find them useful for different "tones and textures" - especially when combined with "real amp" tones. Of course, they also provide the ultimate in isolation for those times when you need it.
If the guitarist (and you, as the producer / engineer) likes the tone of the amp sim, then by all means feel free to use it. Don't just grab presets though - most are designed for maximum impressive impact on the music store floor, and not really for "real world" use, and are usually either too over the top insofar as distortion and / or effects, so don't hesitate to tweak things. I find I am much more likely to be happy with a sim's tone if I design it from the ground up, or at least do some serious editing of a stock preset.
By using an amp sim on the basic tracks, you get great isolation, and you can always layer "real" amps as overdubs later if you want to "flesh out" the sounds. You still retain the advantage of everyone playing together and off of one another, although some guitarists may feel that an amp sim suffers from a touch of latency or that the tone is uninspiring to the point of distraction. Personally, I normally don't feel it's a problem for me while tracking because I'm fairly good at adapting to different situations, but some people have different opinions on the matter. If the tracks are just going down to give the drummer the experience of playing with everyone else and are going to be replaced later, this may be less of an issue, but again, YMMV.
In short, I find amp sims to be nothing more and nothing less than just "another tool in the toolbox". They have their place and uses, but IMO, they don't completely replace amps, mics and a good room.
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#1679691 - 04/30/05 06:40 PM
Re: How do you get a band to "gel" when they're separately tracking?
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Lee Flier
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Originally posted by gaotu:
Do you not think it's a good idea to have a guitar or bass player play into an amp simulator and have the drummer listen through headphones to keep them together?
We have a SansAmp Bass Driver DI here and it works GREAT for bass however.
Everybody needs to have good, sound isolating headphones if you are using this method so they can all hear themselves and each other.
In general though, I wouldn't necessarily go with this method unless there's some compelling reason why you can't have bleed. A little bleed actually sounds good if you place the drum kit and amps well, and it helps "gel" things sonically as well as allowing the band to gel musically. They can also play without headphones that way, which is a big help when getting a good vibe for basic tracks. Drummers will often turn in a more inspired performance if they don't have to wear phones.
See if there is a way to use a smaller guitar amp and face it toward a wall or put it in a closet, bathroom, alcove or whatever.
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#1679692 - 04/30/05 08:18 PM
Re: How do you get a band to "gel" when they're separately tracking?
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where02190
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I'm with Phil and Lee, yes this method will work to get solid rhythm section tracks, but my god replace that simulator track.
I almost always mix with both a DI right off the bass track and cabinet mic'd track, however I do not record the cab track when I'm tracking. I ahve a couple reamp boxes I built, impedance matching devices so I can take the multitrack output and plug it into an amp. I get my bass sound post tracking, and then record it so I can subsequently time align it with the DI, as there will inevitably be a few ms of latency between the Di and the Mic. I find this method to be msot efficient, since I don't spend time dialing in a bass sound, and can easily vary it from song to song to get exactly what the track calls for.
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Hope this is helpful. NP Recording Studios Analog approach to digital recording.
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#1679693 - 05/02/05 12:38 AM
Re: How do you get a band to "gel" when they're separately tracking?
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gaotu
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Thanks again for the replies. Just so you know, as apparently I wasn't that clear, I don't plan on using the amp sim as a real take. I view it as a possibly useful but most unlikely tool for actual sounds. You never know when I might do an electronica-ish or goth band though and actually like the sound of it. I haven't yet though!
I suppose a minimal amount of bleed won't be too bad. I'll just have to experiment. I know experimentation is always the best course!
Where 02190, can you tell me a bit about your reamping process? Since I'm not skilled enough to build my own box, can you suggest an affordable one I can buy to fit my situation? My outputs are all 1/4" balanced. Are there boxes that will accept and convert a signal of that nature for reamping, or do you suggest half-inserting the plug?
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#1679694 - 05/03/05 09:24 PM
Re: How do you get a band to "gel" when they're separately tracking?
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zele
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We always DI the bass or play a sample from the keyboard...and of course :: never have a "bleed" with the pads ( hey it's a  digital world ) > saves lots of mic setup > and the clients ~~ time/money 
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#1679695 - 05/19/05 06:03 PM
Re: How do you get a band to "gel" when they're separately tracking?
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gaotu
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I'm currently tracking a band and discovered a most obvious solution that I didn't think of before... but before that. I must say I like having all 8 mics on the drum set (my current maximum), but as soon as possible I'm getting an 8 ch mic pre with an ADAT feed so I can have 16 channels.
In tracking the drums for one particular song with a million non-exact tempo changes, I realized that there was no way, no matter how good the drummer is (and he's not really that great), that the band would really be able to "gel" without at least one other main instrument playing. The light in my head went on, and I scratch tracked both the guitarist (using a amp sim and headphones for this instance but a miked amp would of been fine too) and the drums (with one LD condenser overhead) at the same time so that they could get their performances synced. It worked beautifully, and the drummer played greatback in the headphones for the drummer to do an official take.
Extrapolating from this, I realize that I essentially could do as many as 8 members at a time (although my room probably isn't big enough) all on a scratch take. From there, any member as necessary could begin with their official takes relying on the scratch takes of the whole band to gel with.
I also realize that this still isn't exactly like them all playing together, but it's pretty darn close and seems to work for this band at least.
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#1679696 - 05/19/05 06:08 PM
Re: How do you get a band to "gel" when they're separately tracking?
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gaotu
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is my URL showing?
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#1679697 - 05/19/05 06:42 PM
Re: How do you get a band to "gel" when they're separately tracking?
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Philip O'Keefe
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No, I don't see it.
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#1679698 - 05/23/05 09:43 AM
Re: How do you get a band to "gel" when they're separately tracking?
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gaotu
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trying again...i wonder if its showing now
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#1679699 - 05/23/05 09:45 AM
Re: How do you get a band to "gel" when they're separately tracking?
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gaotu
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hmmm...the url was gone when i looked at my profile
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#1679700 - 05/27/05 03:07 PM
Re: How do you get a band to "gel" when they're separately tracking?
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Tedly Nightshade
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One thing I've done in a house when tracking a band:
everybody plays in the main room with the drummer. They're all wearing headphones (which sucks, but anyway...). The guitar amp is in another room of the house, the bass amp in another still, etc. But everybody is hearing the drums live and in person, so the timing is healthy.
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A WOP BOP A LU BOP, A LOP BAM BOOM!
"There is nothing I regret so much as my good behavior. What demon possessed me that I behaved so well?" -Henry David Thoreau
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#1679701 - 05/27/05 06:55 PM
Re: How do you get a band to "gel" when they're separately tracking?
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KenElevenShadows
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Tedly, that's exactly how I record in my house as well. In fact, this entire Memorial Day weekend is gonna be filled with exactly this, as I am recording a jazzy pop trio (or something like that). I may allow a bit of leakage between the drums and bass amp, though (I usually stick the bass amp in the kitchen, which is not closed off from the living room where the drums are).
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#1679702 - 05/27/05 08:57 PM
Re: How do you get a band to "gel" when they're separately tracking?
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Tedly Nightshade
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Originally posted by Ken/Eleven Shadows:
Tedly, that's exactly how I record in my house as well. In fact, this entire Memorial Day weekend is gonna be filled with exactly this, as I am recording a jazzy pop trio (or something like that). I may allow a bit of leakage between the drums and bass amp, though (I usually stick the bass amp in the kitchen, which is not closed off from the living room where the drums are).
These days, I would definitely work the bleed some as you describe.
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A WOP BOP A LU BOP, A LOP BAM BOOM!
"There is nothing I regret so much as my good behavior. What demon possessed me that I behaved so well?" -Henry David Thoreau
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#1679703 - 05/28/05 07:58 PM
Re: How do you get a band to "gel" when they're separately tracking?
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gaotu
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The "put the amps in different rooms technique" is definitely a good and desirable one. Unfortunately my house is setup oddly and I don't currently have the cable lengths to do this, nor the inputs as I need, however as I grow i will try this option. The headphones are unavoidable with my arrangement as well. Also, even if all the musicians are in the same room (amps and all), if their gear is partitioned enough not to bleed much, I can't imagine the musicians would be able to adequately hear each other without headphones all. Then of course you have to deal with the separate mix for each guy situation. The drummer wants to hear the guitars, the guitarist the drummer, etc, etc.
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#1679704 - 05/28/05 08:04 PM
Re: How do you get a band to "gel" when they're separately tracking?
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KenElevenShadows
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Gaotu, you'll be surprised at how much leakage you can avoid even in the same room (or at least, without a closed door). I get amazing isolation by placing an amp behind a wall in my kitchen with the drum kit only fifteen feet away, enough that I can punch in the guitar later if need be.
If you have extra mic cables, connect one to the other to double the length.
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#1679705 - 05/28/05 08:38 PM
Re: How do you get a band to "gel" when they're separately tracking?
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Tedly Nightshade
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Originally posted by gaotu:
The "put the amps in different rooms technique" is definitely a good and desirable one. Unfortunately my house is setup oddly and I don't currently have the cable lengths to do this, nor the inputs as I need, however as I grow i will try this option. The headphones are unavoidable with my arrangement as well. Also, even if all the musicians are in the same room (amps and all), if their gear is partitioned enough not to bleed much, I can't imagine the musicians would be able to adequately hear each other without headphones all.
Then of course you have to deal with the separate mix for each guy situation. The drummer wants to hear the guitars, the guitarist the drummer, etc, etc.
When we did this, we only had one mix for everybody, and we used the most motley assortment of cassette decks and a four-track and everything else to get enough headphone amps going!
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A WOP BOP A LU BOP, A LOP BAM BOOM!
"There is nothing I regret so much as my good behavior. What demon possessed me that I behaved so well?" -Henry David Thoreau
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