#1662066 - 03/12/04 04:50 PM
Live basics in old theatre - suggestions?
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Lee Knight
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Registered: 10/19/01
Posts: 1077
Loc: Encinitas,CA,UNITED STATES
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First of all, Phil, I love this new forum. Great topics you've set up so far. Thanks. Here it goes...
I would love some suggestions and any input on a project I'm undertaking shortly. Last night my old band Four Eyes from the 80's played a reunion gig at a local indie-type venue (The Casbah in San Diego). We played our beloved power pop set of original material to 75 old fans/friends. We rocked.
I want to record this set with live basics in a local 1920's movie house that just sounds great. An old friend owns the movie business there and has given his thumbs up. Overdubs later at my place with an M-Box.
I'd like to record the drums, 2 guitars, bass, and a scratch vocal live at the theatre to a Digi001. Here's the set up so far.
(2) Focusrite ISA220 mic pres w/digital outs - Snare and Kick probably
(8) Focusrite Octopre with digital outs (OH's, guitars-2, bass, toms-2, scratch vox)
I've got 4 Octava 012's (OH's, room?, toms?)
Plenty of 57's (guitars,snare,toms?)
RE-20 (kick)
C1 (?, room?, toms?)
Rode NTK (? ,room?, toms?)
Bass Pod. (Skip the amp?)
58 (scratch vox)
I'd also like the electrics DI'd for later processing with Amplitube and/or Trash.
I'll use a Mackie1202 to route the analog outs of all the pres to, then to a multi headphone amp. No latency monitoring. I'd also route a guide loop for tempo (editing later) from Pro Tools as a click to the Mackie then to the phones as well.
A friend will operate Pro Tools from the basement of the theatre with my Event monitors.
Any suggestions?
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#1662067 - 03/12/04 05:40 PM
Re: Live basics in old theatre - suggestions?
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Bill@Welcome Home Studios
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Registered: 08/23/03
Posts: 7343
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Nothing that you have shown us does anything to capture the room sound, so you might as well do this on a garage. Unless it's all about your personal vibe.
My choice would be to rent better gear all the way around, record to more tracks, and put some mics in the room, to be time aligned with the main tracks later.
You may find that a theater sounds great when full, and less great when there is no one there to absorb any sound.
Bill
_________________________
"...it's easier than hitting the kids, and almost as much fun..."
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#1662068 - 03/12/04 05:53 PM
Re: Live basics in old theatre - suggestions?
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Lee Knight
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Registered: 10/19/01
Posts: 1077
Loc: Encinitas,CA,UNITED STATES
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The theatre sounds great empty. I've got old recordings I made there and it's cool. By old recordings old rehearsal tapes from cassette, and still, the room shines. I'm thinking a pair of Octava 012's, a C1, or an NTK to capture the room. Sorry if I wasn't clear.
Where do you think I should upgrade with rentals? Mics? Skip the Octopre?
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#1662069 - 03/12/04 06:00 PM
Re: Live basics in old theatre - suggestions?
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Lee Knight
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Registered: 10/19/01
Posts: 1077
Loc: Encinitas,CA,UNITED STATES
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BTW...
The Mackie is just for monitoring the pres. The 001 will get it's input from the Focusrite digital outs.
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#1662070 - 03/12/04 06:59 PM
Re: Live basics in old theatre - suggestions?
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Bill@Welcome Home Studios
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Registered: 08/23/03
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Originally posted by Lee Knight:
Where do you think I should upgrade with rentals? Mics? Skip the Octopre?
I would use better converters.
I would put up several room mics, each to it's own track.
I would use lots of mics, and they would all be good ones.
You are going to put a lot of effort into getting this together, you might as well put a few bucks into making the recording part of the experience work for you.
Bill
_________________________
"...it's easier than hitting the kids, and almost as much fun..."
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#1662071 - 03/12/04 11:26 PM
Re: Live basics in old theatre - suggestions?
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Philip O'Keefe
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Registered: 12/17/00
Posts: 17674
Loc: Riverside,CA,UNITED STATES
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Bill's given you some useful advice. Some better mics (and even preamps - but especially the mics) would be helpful, and I'd really rather not submix anything... and I'd want to avoid the A/D converters in the 001 if possible (I was never overly fond of them).
Have you considered a 002R? The converters are certainly better, as are the mic preamps. Now might be a good time to consider an upgrade.
Anyway, you listed the following mics:
I've got 4 Octava 012's (OH's, room?, toms?)
Plenty of 57's (guitars,snare,toms?)
RE-20 (kick)
C1 (?, room?, toms?)
Rode NTK (? ,room?, toms?)
Bass Pod. (Skip the amp?)
58 (scratch vox)
Okay, the 58's fine for the scratch vocals. Nothing wrong with the RE20 on kick. 57's are standards on guitar amps and snare, and can do okay on toms, although I'd prefer something else. If you can get some 414 EB's for the toms, or some Audix D2's, A/T ATM25's or maybe some Sennheiser 421's instead of using the 57's on toms, I think you'd be happier with the results.
I do like the MC012's on overheads, so I think you're fine there. On kick, I use my NTK in tandem with the RE20 a lot. Stick it where you'd notmally place a U47 FET - out in front of the front head about 18 - 24". You can build a "tunnel" for it if you'd like by using a second kick drum placed in front of the first one, or with a couple of chairs and packing / moving blankets. Use the RE20 in closer - I normally have mine inserted into the hole on the front head, about 1/2 of its body length, and usually angled towards the floor tom side of the batter head a bit.
I've never tried the C1 as a room mic, but you've only got one anyway. While a mono room mic can be better than nothing, I'd really rather have stereo room mics - especially in a cool sounding room. I'd either buy / borrow a second C1 and use those for the room, or try to get some (rented?) better mics for out there. If you've got omni capsules for your MC012's, you might want to try that too and see what you prefer. But it's better to have "too much" stuff available on a project like this than "not enough". Give yourself some options and plan on spending some time experimenting with sounds before "rolling tape". I know - it's not tape, but I'm an old fart and old habits die hard - besides, "spinning disk" just doesn't sound right to me. 
On bass, you might want to mic it AND run the POD. Again, more options for later. Ditto on the guitars, as you already mentioned - DI AND mics.
I'm assuming you're not going to have a lot of isolation, so mics are going to be very important, as are placement of the instruments in the room, phase relationships, etc. etc. But once you get that all sussed out (again, leave yourself plenty of time to experiment), let it bleed! Except for the scratch vocal... you don't want that coming back to haunt you later if you're planning on redoing them later.
Let us know what you decide on... and of course, once you have it done, we'd like to hear some samples of the final results. 
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#1662072 - 03/13/04 12:57 PM
Re: Live basics in old theatre - suggestions?
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Lee Knight
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Registered: 10/19/01
Posts: 1077
Loc: Encinitas,CA,UNITED STATES
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Thanks to both of you for the suggestions so far.
I'm cashing in on old favors to expand the equipment list.
I'll be adding an AKG 414 and a small diaphragm Neumann (model?) to the arsenal.
NTK as 2nd kick mic
001 converters will not come into play except for guitar DI's, scratch vocal... bass pod?
I think I would cut back on inputs before submixing anything. I need to review the input situation on the 001 again I think. The 001 is borrowed too!
Anyone want to lend me some 421's for my toms? I've got to check my phone book for old friends...
I've got a few weeks preparation until time opens up at the theatre, but I'll keep you posted on my progress.
Thanks to both of you for the ideas.
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