#1661627 - 03/03/04 04:53 AM
Project Studios: In or Out of the Box
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aliengroover
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Most commercial studios use high end boards to mix their DAWs with. What is the case with most of the home/project studios here? Or what would you realistically have be the case?
I know I would love to have a high(er) end board to mix through, but that's just not in the budget right now. So I simply mix completely in the box for roughs, and, through outboard, usually run the final to a standalone burner, in addition to an "in-box" copy. My "mixer" is my Mackie Control Universal. In the quest to remain competitive sonically, is it in one's best interest to mix in the box or to invest in an external console?
Peace
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If at first you don't succeed, keep on sucking 'til you do suck seed!
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#1661628 - 03/03/04 04:58 AM
Re: Project Studios: In or Out of the Box
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Curve Dominant
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Analog consoles are the flying dinosaurs of our craft: Extinct.
Don't look back on ancient history when it comes to making tomorrow's news.
Make great music. Make it happen.
You know...
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#1661629 - 03/03/04 05:31 AM
Re: Project Studios: In or Out of the Box
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not coaster MODERATOR
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i provide the anti-hero erspective on analog board. my 12 ch mackie suits me fine. i coould use a few more inputs i guess.
i'm kinda jealous of the little buddy playing the 4 track reels in his closet. such opportunity for magic to happen.
then lets talk about using carpet rollers for long 4 foot genuine authentic flangers, opening and closing file drawer rails to create a rythym track, record boiling water and reduce the pitch to get a heavy pad. and my favorite simulate a ww2 fighter plane being hit by the enemy and spiralling ever faster into the drink using your favorite old analog synth
now those were the good old days.
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#1661630 - 03/03/04 08:19 AM
Re: Project Studios: In or Out of the Box
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Philip O'Keefe
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I don't know if I'd go quite as far as Curve, but OTOH, I'm not in any rush to go out an spend major bucks on an analog console either. But I certainly do appreciate the sound of a good Neve or API board.
Mixing in the box or with a digital mixer or with stems to an analog board - I really don't care that much, and I'm more interested in the way the person doing it made it sound - and I've heard what I thought were very good mixes as well as absolute crap with all of the above methods.
Personally, I think that for me, I'd rather put my money into a good digital board (gotta love recall automation... beats polaroid automation any day), some select outboard gear / preamps / comps and not have the burden of an SSL payment hanging around my neck every month. Not that I wouldn't mind having an SSL... it's just I can't justify it financially. But while a lot of younger folks are probably just fine with mixing exclusively with a mouse, I really want to have hardware faders. Yeah, I CAN do it with the mouse, but I just prefer having the faders and "playing" the mix lie an instrument. And the mouse is always there for editing moves and ultra-precision control if I need that.
So my normal approach is to use automation in PT as well as on my Yamaha board. Some effects in PT, some outboard and / or via the Yamaha's internal effects. I normally send 8 or 9 stereo submixes to the Yamaha - some tracks, such as kick and snare, usually get their own feeds, while other things such as guitars, frequently get submixed to a stereo stem. It does vary, and I do occasionally mix entirely in the box, but it just depends on what I'm after. Doing it the way I do works for me, and just gives me more options. But like I said, I've heard good and bad results from all of the various approaches, so it's probably more about finding a way that is comfortable and makes sense to you and learning how to make it work for you.
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#1661631 - 03/03/04 09:45 AM
Re: Project Studios: In or Out of the Box
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WFTurner
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I wouldn't mind having some kind of control surface to run my DAW. I'm betting it would take some getting used to when I get one. I never even look at the virtual mixing console in Sonar though I hear it said I probably will when I upgrade to Sonar 3.
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William F. Turner Songwriter turnersongs Sometimes the truth is rude... tough shit... get used to it.
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#1661632 - 03/03/04 10:51 AM
Re: Project Studios: In or Out of the Box
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shikawkee
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I've done extensive a/b'ing and as far as I can tell there's no real difference. Sometimes I liked the mix in the box, sometimes I liked the analog mix. What it taught me was that I could achieve whatever I wanted as long as I understood the tools. In fact, I found I could replicate what I liked from the analog mix to in-the-box once I identified what exactly made it better.
YMMV.
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#1661633 - 03/03/04 11:14 AM
Re: Project Studios: In or Out of the Box
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aliengroover
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Originally posted by shikawkee:
What it taught me was that I could achieve whatever I wanted as long as I understood the tools. In fact, I found I could replicate what I liked from the analog mix to in-the-box once I identified what exactly made it better.
YMMV.
Peace
_________________________
If at first you don't succeed, keep on sucking 'til you do suck seed!
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#1661634 - 03/03/04 11:32 AM
Re: Project Studios: In or Out of the Box
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miroslav
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Originally posted by Philip O'Keefe:
Personally, I think that for me, I'd rather put my money into a good digital board (gotta love recall automation... beats polaroid automation any day), some select outboard gear / preamps / comps and not have the burden of an SSL payment hanging around my neck every month.
But...assuming money was not the issue...and high-end gear was plentiful...
...I would record analog...convert to and edit in digital...and them mix in analog.
You can still get automation on the high-end analog boards...and if not, you can do a lot of automation in your DAW as it comes out to the analog board.
Also...by recording and mixing in analog...you can use all outboard gear instead of plug-ins…which DO NOT sound the same as their hardware counterparts…though there are some decent plug-ins too.
I think a lot CAN be done all "in-the-box"...but it depends on your box…your skills…and the talent. 
Those people that only have a basic “in-the-box” rig...tend to ALWAYS claim that they CAN do everything they want with their rig...just like a big studio...
…but it's not really the case.
It's only on very rare occasions that something done with small “in-the-box” rig will cut through, and actually sound very-pro…very big-studio.
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miroslav - miroslavmusic.com"Just because it happened to you, it doesn't mean it's important."
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#1661635 - 03/03/04 11:59 AM
Re: Project Studios: In or Out of the Box
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Calfee Jones
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I mix in the box. It gets a little complicated trying to send everything out to a board.
I kinda feel like that is where the future is headed, so I might as well get with it now. And in the greater view of things - mixing in the box or outboard is only going to have a small impact on the overall recording (song, performance, recording, mixing)...
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#1661636 - 03/03/04 12:46 PM
Re: Project Studios: In or Out of the Box
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djwayne
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I use my Mackie 24x8 everyday for one thing or another, that's been one of the most used pieces of equipment I have. I can record 8 tracks into a DA-88 or go into two channels into Adobe's Audition, and build a song.
The Mackie is basically the main contolling unit for my studio, and I'd be lost without it. Everything goes thru the Mackie, from streaming computer downloads to sound samples from the midi stuff, to the vocal mikes....then out to a 5.1 speaker set up. The Mackie makes it all easy, without constantly re-patching things.
It may be a dinasaur, but it works great for me.
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Living' in the shadow,
of someone else's dream....
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#1661637 - 03/03/04 04:04 PM
Re: Project Studios: In or Out of the Box
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KenElevenShadows
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I guess my other post didn't show up.
If it's analog, I stay in analog; if it's tracked in Pro Tools, I stay in Pro Tools. Seems to work so far. Lately, I have been tracking rhythm parts in Akai and then transferring them to PT for overdubs and mixing, and that seems to work quite well.
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#1661638 - 03/05/04 01:41 PM
Re: Project Studios: In or Out of the Box
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Medicine Dog Studios
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We recently had the unfortunate situation of having our Mackie D8B die right in the middle of a big mix project. With no time to wait for the board to be repaired, we were forced to go "in box" with DP4 and a MOTU 2408 Mk3.
Most of the compression and EQ was already done within DP4, so the only thing we changed about the mixes was the summing. I can report, quite succinctly, that the mixes sounded much better when routed through the D8B. The stereo width was much wider and the overall sound was warmer. It's taken a LOT of tweaking to get the mixes even back to close to what they were when they were routing externally.
Totally non-scientific, but I trust my ears and, in this case, in-the-box is definitely not better.
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-Aaron
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"If you keep pickin' that thing, it'll never get better!"
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#1661639 - 03/06/04 12:07 PM
Re: Project Studios: In or Out of the Box
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Jazzman
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I mix out of the box, on an analog Mackie 32/8 to DA88's.
Recall is the greatest thing to have when tracking, mixing and I wish I had that.
I get pretty good sound the way I'm working the analog board to digital right now, but I'm used to it I guess, and the price was right at the time. It does take more time for me to keep track of the mixes(the hard way)for clients. It is however the backbone of my studio though. My DA88's capture the sound, the board alows me to manipulate the sound with outboard gear. My opinions and gear will change someday when I have more money to play with.
My thoughts..........
Jazzman 
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#1661640 - 03/06/04 12:30 PM
Re: Project Studios: In or Out of the Box
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djwayne
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Originally posted by Medicine Dog Studios:
We recently had the unfortunate situation of having our Mackie D8B die right in the middle of a big mix project. With no time to wait for the board to be repaired, we were forced to go "in box" with DP4 and a MOTU 2408 Mk3.
Most of the compression and EQ was already done within DP4, so the only thing we changed about the mixes was the summing. I can report, quite succinctly, that the mixes sounded much better when routed through the D8B. The stereo width was much wider and the overall sound was warmer. It's taken a LOT of tweaking to get the mixes even back to close to what they were when they were routing externally.
Totally non-scientific, but I trust my ears and, in this case, in-the-box is definitely not better.
_________________________
Living' in the shadow,
of someone else's dream....
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#1661641 - 03/06/04 04:02 PM
Re: Project Studios: In or Out of the Box
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Reverend Rhythm
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I'm moving more and more to "in the box," and I like it. Granted I'm not comparing to a digital mixer, but I can say I've been very happy so far.
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David
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#1661642 - 03/16/04 06:01 AM
Re: Project Studios: In or Out of the Box
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Bobro
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Sometimes I get asked to correct translations and I explain what needs to be done this way-
"Take for example the word "tree". Now draw me a tree...okay that's a picture of a tree sure enough- now image you live in Miami and draw me a tree."
What's "mixing"?
If you're in charge of the project from the start and are going to see it through to the end, and have a firm vision, you can be "mixing" before the record button even gets pressed, with muscial direction, instrument and mic selection, placement, carting your rig to acoustic places for unique flavors, etc.
Love this approach- if it is I or my buddy Marko who is micing, mixing "in the box" is where it's at for me, because it's just panning, maybe enhancing some colors (don't have to "make" them cuz that's already done) and "micromixing" like a word or a note lowered or raised, for which work a DAW is ideal. Can't speak for other DAWs, but with Samplitude WYHIWYG; the multitrack is running, you bounce it down to a stereo file and it sounds identical.
On the other hand, if what you mean by "mixing" is a kind of conducting after the fact, coupled with realtime fundamantal work on the source sounds, a mouse is a foolish thing and controller to DAW is like Karajan wearing oven mitts.
So it depends.
BTW the ideas of "old", "new", "modern", "old-fashioned", are based on a linear conception of time which is in a deep way not related to music, mankind's first interdimensional time machine.
-Bobro
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#1661643 - 03/16/04 08:33 AM
Re: Project Studios: In or Out of the Box
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Phait
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I've no idea why I'd need a hardware mixer when I can do it in software. But that's me being a novice.
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#1661644 - 03/16/04 09:27 AM
Re: Project Studios: In or Out of the Box
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DallasPA
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Lately,
Its been in the box, initially with pro tools. But now that I have the SX-1, TDM just sets there unless a clients request PT.
Dallas
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#1661645 - 03/17/04 01:58 PM
Re: Project Studios: In or Out of the Box
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Medicine Dog Studios
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Originally posted by Bobro:
What's "mixing"?
I can't speak to anything other than Digital Performer (haven't used Pro Tools enough to have an opinion), but DP's internal summing, while good, doesn't stand up to the hardware summing an external mixer can provide.
_________________________
-Aaron
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"If you keep pickin' that thing, it'll never get better!"
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#1661646 - 03/17/04 02:55 PM
Re: Project Studios: In or Out of the Box
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Bill@Welcome Home Studios
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Originally posted by Medicine Dog Studios:
[QUOTE]..I can't speak to anything other than Digital Performer (haven't used Pro Tools enough to have an opinion), but DP's internal summing, while good, doesn't stand up to the hardware summing an external mixer can provide.
I think that you need to provide some evidence to back this statement up, since most blind testing so far has not supported it. And are you -really- complaining about your signal chain, or have you somehow isolated it to the actual summing algos? I'm not trying to start anything, or even to change your mind, just to get you to think about it a little.
I mix in the box. Once the stuff is converted to digital, it stays digital until the client plays back the finished product. I use a high quality signal chain... good mics, good pres and comps, good converters. Playback for mixdown is accomplished using good converters through a stellar amp and speaker setup in a treated room.
Bill
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"...it's easier than hitting the kids, and almost as much fun..."
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#1661647 - 03/17/04 10:31 PM
Re: Project Studios: In or Out of the Box
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Groove Team Productions
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Phil,
I made the same move you did from the AW's over to a DAW. I heard you were using PT with a 01V96 as a mixer. I have the AW's, and also a Mackie D8b that I have not been using. I was going to move to the 01V96, but I am wondering how you are making out with the 01V96 without automation. Any information would be helpful. Thanks.
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#1661648 - 03/18/04 12:01 AM
Re: Project Studios: In or Out of the Box
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Philip O'Keefe
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I wrote a "how to" on the 01V96 on one of the Yamaha / Yahoo groups. I'll have to go grab that and post it over here.
Anyway, I am indeed using the 01V96 in tandem with Pro Tools, and yes, I do wish the board had the ONBOARD automation of the AW4416's - I do miss that sometimes. There's always the DM1000 / 02R96 / DM2000 if you must have that...
OTOH, why duplicate?
You've got automation in Pro Tools. The 01V96 doesn't, but it can be controlled by Pro Tools, which has the advantage of keeping all of your automation data in one location and giving you one less interface to worry about.
I have my 01V96 and computer set up in such a way that I can do several things with them. First of all, I use the USB interface to have the 01V96 communicate with the bundled Studio Manager software. I use that software to configure the board and to archive different scenes, etc. right from my computer. I also have the HUI control layer on the 01V96 set up to control PT's onscreen faders, mutes, etc. So the 01V96 is also functioning as a control surface for PT. Between the two banks of HUI control on the 01V96 and the 8 faders on my Digi 002, that gives me 24 faders to control the software at once. It cuts down on the amount of bank shifting I have to do.
And finally, I have it set up so that I can move an audio layer fader on the Yamaha, or unmute an audio channel and MIDI CC data is sent out of the 01V96, recorded on a MIDI track in PT and then when played back, it will automate that fader, mute, etc. on the audio portion of the 01V96. If I need to make a fader level adjustment, or nudge a mute a little earlier I can go it by punching in on that MIDI automation track in PT, or tweak it graphically in PT using the typical vector displays.
No, it's not onboard automation, but it does the job, and it does have the advantage of having all the automation in one place - right in PT. Of course, that's added stress on your computer's CPU, so if you're doing large sessions with lots of tracks, lots of plug ins and lots of automation, you'd better have a fast machine. Fortunately, I do - and it's about time to bump that up another notch anyway. I'll probably add a new CPU and mobo (upgrading from my Athlon XP 2700 / Asus A7N8X Deluxe) in the not too distant future.
I'll try to find that post on Yahoo and post a copy of it over here for anyone who's interested in how I have my Yamaha / PT setup configured to do all of this. Stay tuned. 
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#1661649 - 03/18/04 05:44 AM
Re: Project Studios: In or Out of the Box
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Bobro
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Originally posted by Medicine Dog Studios: Originally posted by Bobro:
What's "mixing"?
I can't speak to anything other than Digital Performer (haven't used Pro Tools enough to have an opinion), but DP's internal summing, while good, doesn't stand up to the hardware summing an external mixer can provide.
Long term feeling is where it's at AFAIC- "hey why don't you your Gadget X anymore, man?"
"I dunno, it just kinda gets on my nerves or something...wanna buy it?"
IMO that kind of "test" has more value. But you know they say about opinions- everyone's entitled to theirs.
I am happy with the no-surprises cleanliness of Samplitude, where I can make things as colored as I like in the tracking and tracks themselves and get what I hear in the multitrack in the final stereo file.
Fine analog gear for tracking is at this point immensely more important
than mixing or summing issues, and I'll bet that this is true for most people, even those with heavy studios.
-Bobro
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