#1656682 - 10/04/06 02:51 PM
Re: R+D Support Central
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Anth
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Registered: 03/29/06
Posts: 11
Loc: Virginia, USA
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Doug,
Is R+D now a completely separate program from ETF or are they bundled together?
I started an AV business and am looking to offer setup services, calibration, recommend room treatments, etc. Before that, I had been considering getting ETF and R+D, but have been out of the loop for a while. Budget always held me back, but not anymore!
Thanks,
Anthony
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#1656683 - 10/20/06 09:13 AM
Re: R+D Support Central
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Doug Plumb
Senior Member
Registered: 03/14/06
Posts: 70
Loc: Toronto Ont Canada
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You get both R+D & ETF for the price of ETF. Most people just use RPlusD because it is a lot better.
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#1656684 - 10/23/06 06:41 PM
Re: R+D Support Central
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Stephane R
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Registered: 10/23/06
Posts: 1
Loc: Montreal
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little problem finding the right USB soundcard. The suggested SoundBlaster MP3+ is no longer available an is not replaced yet. The Soundblaster Digital Music SX is only available in Asia... Any suggestions?
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#1656685 - 10/24/06 11:09 AM
Re: R+D Support Central
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Ethan Winer
MP Hall of Fame Member
Registered: 06/12/00
Posts: 5231
Loc: New Milford, CT, USA
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Stephane,
I assume any USB sound card is fine. This is needed mostly for laptop computers because their built-in sound cards don't usually have left and right line inputs. If you have a "regular" computer with a normal stereo sound card, you probably don't need to replace it.
--Ethan
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#1656687 - 11/01/06 08:55 AM
Re: R+D Support Central
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Ethan Winer
MP Hall of Fame Member
Registered: 06/12/00
Posts: 5231
Loc: New Milford, CT, USA
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Hal,
Hey, if it ain't broke don't fix it. Not that nothing could be added or improved in ETF. But Doug Plumb, ETF author, also has a newer program called R+D that will eventually replace ETF. You get R+D free when you buy ETF, so there's still plenty in store for the future.
--Ethan
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#1656688 - 11/06/06 06:41 AM
Re: R+D Support Central
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Bob E.
Senior Member
Registered: 08/11/06
Posts: 39
Loc: New Hampshire
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Ethan,
I noticed that you still post a lot of your measurements generated by ETF. If I may ask, do you still see some advantages of ETF over RplusD? It is not my intent to put you in an awkward position or take away from the usefullness of RplusD and I hope that this is taken for what it is, a simple question of curiousity.
Thanks.
Bob
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#1656689 - 11/06/06 10:24 AM
Re: R+D Support Central
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Ethan Winer
MP Hall of Fame Member
Registered: 06/12/00
Posts: 5231
Loc: New Milford, CT, USA
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Bob,
I use both ETF and R+D. I generally measure with ETF, then look at the data in one or the other or both. Since you get R+D free with ETF, it's not like you have to choose one. 
There are only two key features remaining that R+D doesn't have and ETF does:
* Continuous updated response measurements
* Ability to set the vertical dB scale on waterfall plots
--Ethan
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#1656690 - 11/06/06 04:21 PM
Re: R+D Support Central
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cajunbaseball
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Registered: 08/27/06
Posts: 1
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Ethan and Doug -
I want to check frequency response at various locations to figure out the best place to locate my speakers and my primary listening position. Also, i want to figure out my room modes and how to minimize them. I'd also like to know where reflections are coming from and how best to minimize their affect on the primary listening position. I have speakers with built in powered subwoofers and they are, I think, "point source." (Vandersteen Quatros)
I don't want to know everything I can do with the program and EQ etc and I don't care about how the program calculates what it does. I want to be able to run the most important tests, interpret the results and act upon the results. HELP.
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#1656691 - 11/13/06 12:00 PM
Re: R+D Support Central
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Doug Plumb
Senior Member
Registered: 03/14/06
Posts: 70
Loc: Toronto Ont Canada
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Cajune,
You should set your mains up by the equalateral triangle rule - their distance apart should be the same as the distance between any one of them and the listener.
They should be placed to minimize early reflections.
Your sub woofer is what needs experiment with. Take about 6 random listener position mic positions for each placement. Create a new file for each test and compare the filkes for the flattest response.
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#1656692 - 11/13/06 12:00 PM
Re: R+D Support Central
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Doug Plumb
Senior Member
Registered: 03/14/06
Posts: 70
Loc: Toronto Ont Canada
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Cajune,
You should set your mains up by the equalateral triangle rule - their distance apart should be the same as the distance between any one of them and the listener.
They should be placed to minimize early reflections.
Your sub woofer is what needs experiment with. Take about 6 random listener position mic positions for each placement. Create a new file for each test and compare the files for the flattest response.
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#1656693 - 11/13/06 12:03 PM
Re: R+D Support Central
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Doug Plumb
Senior Member
Registered: 03/14/06
Posts: 70
Loc: Toronto Ont Canada
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RPlusD now has wireless data gathering. It is part of the filter fit / add on license.
Its not recommended for beginners because of certain pathologies in the measurements that the user should understand.
Never before have such high res measurements beeen available in an audio analyzer without a direct physical connection between the analyzer and SUT (system under test).
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#1656694 - 11/14/06 02:27 PM
Re: R+D Support Central
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Bob E.
Senior Member
Registered: 08/11/06
Posts: 39
Loc: New Hampshire
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Doug,
Can RplusD do a waterfall plot of mid frequencies ( 1Kh-5Kh )? Every time I try it, I get the normal low frequency graph. I have checked all my parameters and everything looks like it's set correctly.
Thank you.
Bob
11/17/06 
Ethan,
Do you have any idea about this?
Bob
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#1656695 - 11/18/06 11:49 AM
Re: R+D Support Central
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Doug Plumb
Senior Member
Registered: 03/14/06
Posts: 70
Loc: Toronto Ont Canada
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Bob E,
You should select the appropriate portion of the frequency response that you want to see a waterfall for then click on the waterfall display button.
The software sets the graphic limits so that you can see the waterfall display correctly.
You may have to make Gate Time smaller to see hiher frequencies.
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#1656696 - 11/18/06 11:51 AM
Re: R+D Support Central
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Doug Plumb
Senior Member
Registered: 03/14/06
Posts: 70
Loc: Toronto Ont Canada
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Anyone that downloads the newer version that includes the test signal CD option should burn a new test CD before doing tests. I have changed the test signal on the CD to improve poor S/N performance between 250 & 500 Hz.
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#1656697 - 11/18/06 05:49 PM
Re: R+D Support Central
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Bob E.
Senior Member
Registered: 08/11/06
Posts: 39
Loc: New Hampshire
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Doug,
Thank you.  You are correct that I wasn't making the gate time small enough.
Rookie mistake. 
Bob
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#1656698 - 12/22/06 09:58 PM
Re: R+D Support Central
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Wayne Rose
Senior Member
Registered: 11/26/06
Posts: 58
Loc: Toronto, Canada
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Hi Doug,
Let me thank you in advance for offering your expert help by way of this forum.
I'm trying to test my sound card(s) in ETF.
On my desktop (Windows XP-SP2, 3.2 GHz, 1 GB RAM, Intel 915 MB with integrated Realtek HD Audio Controller), after having configured the I/O as directed, I'm getting Level Check readings of -28 dB, with the Windows mixer's volume sliders all the way up. Setting the mixer's volume sliders at about 60% gives readings in the -40 to -42.5 range. Disconnecting the I/O gives readings in the -43 to -46 range.
Interestingly, the very first time I ran ETF, in demo mode, the readings were perfect -- in the -10 to -8 dB range, and the graphs were almost exactly the same as those in the tutorial. Once I registered the software, I tried the test again, and it's been screwy ever since.
Using my laptop (Windows XP-SP2, 1.2 GHz, 512 MB RAM, Intel AC97 Audio Controller with configurable line-in and line-out) I get readings of -51 dB at full volume, -59 to 60 dB at 60% volume, and -60 to -62 dB with the connections open. Differenet levels, but apparently the same problem.
Am I overlooking something, or does ETF create a preference file somewhere that is somehow filtering the readings.
I've tried running the test anyway. On the desktop PC, the Impulse Response graph looks noisy to me, though basically similar to the one in the tutorial, except that the System - SoundCard and SoundCard signals descend to -92 dB, versus -20 dB in the tutorial. The Linear Frequency Response graph is not smooth like the one in Getting Started -- the System curve looks like an impulse graph that extends horizontally, hovering in the -89 dB range. The Ch 2 Ref curve extends from -73.7 dB at 20 Hz to 99.57 at 20 KHz. Both curves are very hairy looking.
Obviously, I'm not an electronics whiz -- but I do have some knowledge of basic electronics, computer logic, and musical acoustics.
I'm guessing that the solution is probably staring me in the face, but I just can't see it.
Appreciate your help ...
Wayne
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#1656699 - 12/23/06 08:36 AM
Re: R+D Support Central
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Doug Plumb
Senior Member
Registered: 03/14/06
Posts: 70
Loc: Toronto Ont Canada
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I'm not sure why you are using ETF, but it is obvious that you are making an error in your mixer settings or you have your headphones plugged in.
When you use RPlusD you only need to set your mixer once. The auto mixer saves those mixer settings when you shut down and re applies them each time you re run the software.
You can run into problems if you change your hardware sound cards, but in this case the automatic mixer can be reset.
Watch the video that explains how to set up the sound card for RPlusD, the method is identical to ETF.
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#1656700 - 12/24/06 01:27 AM
Re: R+D Support Central
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Wayne Rose
Senior Member
Registered: 11/26/06
Posts: 58
Loc: Toronto, Canada
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Doug,
I'm not sure why you are using ETF, but it is obvious that you are making an error in your mixer settings or you have your headphones plugged in.
I thought I explained pretty fully what my mixer settings were, and no, I don't have any headphones plugged in!
I have watched the video, as you suggested and also done the following:
1. Uninstalled ETF
2. Uninstalled RPlusD
3. Reinstalled RPlusD
4. Disabled USB ports, internet connection, and all irrelevant software in my system tray
5. Checked all audio connections.
6. Ran RPlusD, and took an initial soundcard level measurement.
The results were much as I described above.
Here are screen captures of my settings, and the results of the level check:
Why is the input signal so low?
Why is the input S/N ratio zero?
Why is the mic-spkr distance not zero?
Doug, what do you suggest I do next?
Appreciate your help ...
Wayne
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#1656701 - 12/24/06 01:49 AM
Re: R+D Support Central
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Wayne Rose
Senior Member
Registered: 11/26/06
Posts: 58
Loc: Toronto, Canada
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Doug,
Just tried another check, cause it's so much fun.
And got this message:
"One or more parameters are invalid. 4397"
What's going on?
Wayne
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#1656702 - 12/24/06 02:22 AM
Re: R+D Support Central
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Wayne Rose
Senior Member
Registered: 11/26/06
Posts: 58
Loc: Toronto, Canada
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Doug,
Tried a few more times.
With Options/Mixer/Mixer On selected, my soundcard inputs are showing up in the Options/Mixer/SoundCard dialog (which they weren't before the reinstall).
BTW, forgot to ask previously - should there have been any problem with having both ETF and RPlusD installed on the same system, as long as they aren't running concurrently?
Back to the issue at hand ...
However, when I run the test, in addition to the measurement results being incorrect (as outlined in my previous post) I'm getting the following error messages:
"A device ID has been used that is out of range for your system."
And,
"Failed to open waveform output device (waveOutOpen)"
When I select Options/Mixer/Mixer Off, I no longer get the error messages, but the measurement results are still incorrect.
I'm also noticing, that while the input signal measurements are consistent within a narrow range, and the S/N value is repeatedly zero, the mic-spkr distance fluctuates wildly.
I realize the AutoMixer function is still in beta phase, and it's apparently erratic with my system, so I'll refrain from using it.
Hope this further info is of some help, however I still need a solution for the incorrect readings I am getting ...
Thanks in advance,
Wayne
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#1656703 - 12/24/06 07:21 AM
Re: R+D Support Central
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Doug Plumb
Senior Member
Registered: 03/14/06
Posts: 70
Loc: Toronto Ont Canada
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Wayne,
RPlusD has an automatic mixer. If you save your settings - ie say yes to saving mixer settings then change your hardware sound card configuration then you will get errors the next time you run the software.
You must do this:
(1) Set up the mixer once so that the software gives you a perfect impulse. You can watch the RPlusD video to see exactly how to do this.
In the play mixer: You set your play out volume and select only wave out. Mute, turn off or shut everything else off. This ensures that only the test signal comes out of the play out jacks.
In the record mixer: Only enable Line in so that the software only records from line in and mutes everything else. Shut off or mute every other control but line in.
(2) Close the audio data gathering window and say 'yes'to save mixer settings- with the automatic mixer on.
Every time you use the software it will remember your mixer settings and set up the mixer the way you set it in the above steps.
When you close the software the software will reset the mixer to how you had it before.
If the automatic mixer gives you errors then don't use it - disable it. It is there for convenience but cannot work all the time with every single sound card in existence.
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#1656704 - 12/24/06 07:24 AM
Re: R+D Support Central
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Doug Plumb
Senior Member
Registered: 03/14/06
Posts: 70
Loc: Toronto Ont Canada
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If you cannot get this to work, screen grab your play mixer and your record mixer and send them to me by email. I will show you how to set the mixer.
Make sure that you watch the RPlusD video that explains how to set up a mixer.
The windows mixer oiperates the same as any mixer such as the ones used by bands and in PA systems. They are all the same.
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#1656705 - 12/24/06 06:57 PM
Re: R+D Support Central
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Doug Plumb
Senior Member
Registered: 03/14/06
Posts: 70
Loc: Toronto Ont Canada
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"Just tried another check, cause it's so much fun.
And got this message:
"One or more parameters are invalid. 4397"
What's going on?"
That is an automatic mixer error. Shut the auto mixer off and reset it then turn it back on.
This means you have somehow changed your sound card config - installed or uninstalled another sound card or something like that.
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#1656706 - 12/24/06 06:58 PM
Re: R+D Support Central
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Doug Plumb
Senior Member
Registered: 03/14/06
Posts: 70
Loc: Toronto Ont Canada
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BTW your shown mixer settings are correct. Make sure that sound card is selected from the options button - yellow button with hammer and screw driver icons.
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#1656707 - 01/10/07 01:08 PM
Re: R+D Support Central
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Wayne Rose
Senior Member
Registered: 11/26/06
Posts: 58
Loc: Toronto, Canada
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Hi Doug,
I am posting this reply primarily to offer the solution to the problem referred to above, for anyone experiencing a similar issue:
It turned out that changing the mixer settings for Line In and Line Out was not enough -- it was necessary to also change the settings in the control panel, accessible from the Windows Device Manager. Once I did this, and followed your directions for configuring the ETF software (see above), everything worked perfectly!
I want to thank you publicly on this forum, Doug -- for all the one-on-one support you have provided in helping me to get ETF up and running on both my desktop and laptop PCs.
I have reviewed ETF in its entirety, and now feel ready to move on to RPlusD, with considerably more understanding than I might have had.
For those considering room analysis software, I sincerely recommend the ETF/RPlusD solution, and its developer, Doug Plumb.
Thanks again, Doug.
Looking forward to exchanging thoughts with you, as I continue my room analysis.
Best regards,
Wayne
BTW: For those interested, I was able to purchase a factory refurbished Creative Labs SoundBlaster USB MP3+ external sound card (recommended in the ETF documentation) through Creative Labs' eBay store, for $14.04 USD! And yes, it worked perfectly, while the integrated audio on my laptop would not. Cheers.
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#1656708 - 01/11/07 04:26 PM
Re: R+D Support Central
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richidoo
Member
Registered: 11/26/06
Posts: 23
Loc: Raleigh, NC
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Hi Doug
Is it possible to use a pro audio interface with R+D? This would allow using phantom powered condensor mic, which is not possible with a sound blaster sound card.
I can get the software to work with integrated Dell soundcard, but cannot get it to work with Presonus Firepod whose drivers have no provision for software level controls, muting, etc.
If can't use a condensor mic with R+D, what mic do you recommend with line level outputs and a decent freq response?
Thanks
Rich
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#1656709 - 01/12/07 07:37 AM
Re: R+D Support Central
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Doug Plumb
Senior Member
Registered: 03/14/06
Posts: 70
Loc: Toronto Ont Canada
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"Presonus Firepod whose drivers have no provision for software level controls, muting, etc. "
These pro sound cards require windows WDM drivers. These can be found in a 3rd party solution easily on the web and once the WDM drivers are installed the software will work on almost any sound card that has the required connections.
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#1656710 - 01/12/07 07:41 AM
Re: R+D Support Central
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Doug Plumb
Senior Member
Registered: 03/14/06
Posts: 70
Loc: Toronto Ont Canada
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"Wayne Rose:Looking forward to exchanging thoughts with you, as I continue my room analysis."
Thanks for the compliments Wayne. I hope users skip by ETF and start using RPlusD right away. It is different from ETF but it is also easier to use and doesn't require the same degree of care in checking that ETF does. Users are advised not to bother with ETF and use RPlusD only instead.
RPlusD also has an automatic mixer so you only have to set your mixer contriols once and the software remembers your settings each time you subsequently run it.
RPlusD has the same measurements as ETF + more, They are easier to view because RPlusD has a better user interface.
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#1656711 - 01/12/07 12:38 PM
Re: R+D Support Central
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Ethan Winer
MP Hall of Fame Member
Registered: 06/12/00
Posts: 5231
Loc: New Milford, CT, USA
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Rich,
> I can get the software to work with integrated Dell soundcard, but cannot get it to work with Presonus Firepod whose drivers have no provision for software level controls, muting, etc. <
I don't have a Firepod but I do have a FireBOX on my Dell laptop, and both ETF and R+D work fine with it. The FireBOX does have a software mixer / control panel with levels and mutes etc, but I have all the stuff like live monitoring etc turned off.
I have also used ETF successfully on the computer at our factory that has a Firepod, but I don't remember if I ever used R+D on that computer.
--Ethan
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