#1645443 - 04/16/05 05:22 PM
Crowd size
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Strangerbytheminute
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Registered: 11/29/04
Posts: 190
Loc: Seattle
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I have a question for all of you. How big of a crowd do your acts draw and how often do you play?
I've been playing almost every weekend and it's getting harder to draw. Luckily most of the clubs we play have built in draws.....
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#1645444 - 04/17/05 02:44 AM
Re: Crowd size
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GZsound
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Registered: 01/17/01
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Loc: Somewhere in Oregon
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We only play a couple of club gigs. One, our regular monthly gig is normally a full club. We played last night (Friday) and it was standing room only until nearly one in the morning.
We have a couple of regular summer gigs we do where we are the only band, both outdoor gigs, and last year at one we had 4,500 people and the other drew about 1,500. We are booked to do both again this August.
_________________________
Mark G.
"A man may fail many times, but he isn't a failure until he begins to blame others" -- John Burroughs
"I consider ethics, as well as religion, as supplements to law in the government of man." -- Thomas Jefferson
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#1645445 - 04/17/05 01:26 PM
Re: Crowd size
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Curious_G
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Registered: 11/09/01
Posts: 247
Loc: Gulph Mills,PA,UNITED STATES
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Size matters!
We're an all original band and we play about 3 or 4 times a month and can usually draw 20 or 30 per show. The rest are walk-ins. Most clubs don't want to book you if you play more than once a month in their area. We put a sixty mile limit between clubs/bars in any given month.
That being said, it happens from time to time that you play for a bar with 8 people in it and they're mostly the staff and the girlfriends... now THAT is a challenging show.
We'll play a few festivals or park concert series this year too but the draw is built-in to the event.
Are you keeping an email list?
_________________________
Got Twang? http://www.DeSotoRust.com "Interesting fact: the more gear a band brings in, the less people show up. This rule is almost universally true." JJ the Blue Moon
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#1645446 - 04/18/05 03:00 AM
Re: Crowd size
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GZsound
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I have an email sign up sheet at our gigs for folks who want to be notified of our public gigs. We also keep our schedule on our web site.
One of our yearly outdoor events had three thousand the first year and 4500 last year, both of which were extreme record attendance for the annual Friday night on the commons event.
This year they are going to have facilities for 5,000. We like getting hired back to that one.
Our other outdoor event is actually in the parking lot of a club we play in every month or so. There is a festival in town that day and we played on the main stage one year in the afternoon and then played that evening in the parking lot of the club. We had about twice as many in the parking lot gig (1,500) as there were in the festival grounds so this year we are only playing the parking lot gig on festival day.
More money and fewer hours. My kind of gig.
I normally only email our following if we are at a local club for our once a month gig since most of our stuff is private gigs.
_________________________
Mark G.
"A man may fail many times, but he isn't a failure until he begins to blame others" -- John Burroughs
"I consider ethics, as well as religion, as supplements to law in the government of man." -- Thomas Jefferson
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#1645447 - 04/18/05 09:43 AM
Re: Crowd size
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Lee Flier
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Registered: 09/13/00
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Loc: Atlanta,GA,UNITED STATES
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Yeah, Curious G is right, if you're an original band and you play too often, your following gets too scattered and you can't draw much from night to night. We've stopped playing more than once a month intown. If it's a cover gig, usually it's at a place that has a built in following (festival, private event, whatever) so it's a different story.
Things really do suck these days for original bands in terms of building a following in clubs. Most of the clubs don't get many walk-ins, they charge a cover and people don't want to pay to take a chance on a band playing unfamiliar material. So unless you can get on a bill that makes sense musically (which isn't always the case), your chances of getting new fans at a club gig are slim. We try to mitigate this somewhat by networking with other compatible bands and offering a complete bill package to a club owner. They usually go for that because it means less thinking on their part.  On the other hand, there are some clubs that will deliberately try to book the most un-sensible bill they can (e.g. a shoegazing alt-folk band with a hardcore band) because they don't want the bands' crowds to overlap. Then they wonder why people won't take a chance and walk into their club. It's ridiculous.
It's weird, because certainly 15-20 years ago, the wisdom was that you played as much as possible so that you could attract more fans. A once a week residency or even more, was sought after, even by original bands. Now, a lot of clubs won't book you if you play in the same town within a month, and they expect the band to bring in most of the crowd. Pretty sad state of affairs.
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#1645448 - 04/18/05 03:18 PM
Re: Crowd size
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Fendercaster
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Registered: 06/03/03
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Loc: Milledgeville, Georgia USA
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posted by Curious_G:
That being said, it happens from time to time that you play for a bar with 8 people in it and they're mostly the staff and the girlfriends... now THAT is a challenging show.
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#1645449 - 04/18/05 06:20 PM
Re: Crowd size
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GTRBass
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Registered: 12/03/03
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Loc: Los Angeles, Ca
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In Hollywood, the mecca of "showcasing", there is the play out once a month vibe. One band I work with bucks that trend. Right now, we have a little mini "tour" cicuit where book about 5 shows a month. We alternate various clubs each leg of the circuit.
This is a new band which has only been around on the scene since January. So far this has worked very well for us. We've played more shows since January than most LA bands do in a year. The immediate side benfit is that the band is extremely tight as a result and can deal with just about anything that comes up. The clubs vary in size and sound/lighting quality to the point where we're used to really bad sound systems and can perform well under those conditions and know how to compensate for it. We do carry our own monitoring when needed to make it bearable. WHen we play bigger clubs with a great system, it's just makes it all that more easy to perform a great show.
We play a tiny San Fernando valley club that could care less about draw as it's a local watering hole. We play a well known West LA, Long Beach or Orange county club and work hard to draw there. We play a well known Hollywood hot spot and work as hard as we can to draw there too. We play a San Gabriel valley or San Bernardino county club that could care less about draw as they are a local watering hole. We do one (or more) decent paying shows out of town and usually as an opener for a big national.
When I say out of town, I mean Santa Barbara, San Luis, San Diego, Phoenix, Las Vegas, etc. Some are even fly dates. Note: The band has some very well known players with the connections necessary to get opener slots on a national bill.
Each facet of our little cicuit feeds the other. The little watering holes want us because we are doing "big shows" at some prestigious places in Hollywood, etc. At some of the Hollywood shows we get additional draw from the little watering hole gigs. The Hollywood bookers hear about us opening shows for nationals, giving us credibility with them. We're an active LA band so the out of town clubs treat us like a credible up and coming band which will be "big" someday. Another thin that helps us is that we can absolutely deliver onstage.
What I've learned in 20+ years is that when it all falls together, you can become a potent force rather quickly. That said, drawing a crowd is harder than ever.
Live music clubs are on the wane because:
A) Many people would rather stay home and surf the net, watch DVD's or play video games.
B) Drunk driving laws carry harsh penalties and the risk of being caught is greater.
C) Many of the live clubs are not a cool hang to the general public. A cover band is familiar entertainment, but multiple original bands on a bill might mean anything under the sun, and let's face it most bands aren't writing and performing great songs.
We have over two solid sets of original songs so we alternate quite a bit to keep things fresh and still familiar for the people who'e seen us more than once.
I have noticed a good trend in LA. Some of the clubs are starting to put serious money into remodeling in a conscious effort to make them a cool hang. In particular The Cat Club (Sunset strip) and The Joint (West LA) have both expanded/remodeled and are significantly improved rooms. They are both staying current without changing their format significantly to rekindle patron interest.
Many clubowners have lived on the coat tails of their bands for years. They might not admit it, but they've totally done so. They put all the pressure on the acts to be the sole drawing attraction. The problem is that when you do that you start to book only based on door numbers, alienating regular walk-in customers and if your not careful you wind up lowering the quality of the hang. If you're known for great bands, great drinks, great food, service, and vibe, you draw simply because you're a great hang. Live bands are only a part of it.
A lot of clubs now have a multi format environment that seems to the right way to do it. They have theme nights, etc, and they have several spaces, like a live showroom, a dance floor room, a quiet patio or front bar that's a place to talk etc.
It takes a lot to draw, and sometimes the place you play is more important than you are. If it's a sh*tty hang, people will not go even if they love your band. They might go once. but if you get a bad vibe look for somewhere else to play. If there's no cool bars where you are, make your own club for the night. Rent a hall and throw a party.
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#1645450 - 04/19/05 02:04 AM
Re: Crowd size
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GZsound
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Registered: 01/17/01
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Loc: Somewhere in Oregon
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I agree the live music scene has been on the downslide for quite a while. We got paid more in the seventies and eighties for club gigs than they pay now.
The drunk driving laws seem to have had a big effect on the turnout.
We still have once a month club gigs that draw well and around here there are several bands..mostly all blues bands...that play every night of the week at a different club and just rotate from club to club but always seem to be at one of about ten clubs a couple times a month.
Other new bands, original and cover, can't get arrested around here. Club pay is typically five hundred bucks a weekend..which is an insult.
In the "good old days" we played six nights a week for four to six weeks at the same place and it was always packed. In the eighties we would do a month at the same club every weekend and do quite well.
Rarely happens any more. And with so many bands willing to play for nothing we have just about given up on club gigs totally.
Most of the clubs have gone to power trio blues bands because that's the only way the musicians can make any money. Really boring to me.. "great, time for another guitar lead"..
_________________________
Mark G.
"A man may fail many times, but he isn't a failure until he begins to blame others" -- John Burroughs
"I consider ethics, as well as religion, as supplements to law in the government of man." -- Thomas Jefferson
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#1645452 - 04/19/05 04:20 PM
Re: Crowd size
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GTRBass
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Loc: Los Angeles, Ca
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Originally posted by GZsound:
I agree the live music scene has been on the downslide for quite a while. We got paid more in the seventies and eighties for club gigs than they pay now.
People don't view making music as "work". Even we don't view it that way. We call it playing. If people resent you becasue they think you don't work for your money, they don't want to pay you, or pay to see you. How many people b*tch about a $5 cover charge?
I also think the law of supply and demand is usually applied against us. There are fewer clubs booking live bands now. Because of shows like American Idol, anyone who sings in the shower and owns a guitar thinks they can be the next Kurt Cobain, or whatever. (Actually, they might be right.) When there are 100 bands in the area and five clubs that book live acts, the owners can basically dictate the terms. Most o fthe time the terms equal you get as little as possible.
There is no collective bargaining, or standards anymore. 50 years ago the musicians union did have leverage. Most clubowners paid you scale. That's been long gone. There is no set of standards for wages. Most club bookers enjoy the game of getting you for as little as possible.
People are used to DJ's. The younger generations coming up now actually tend to prefer DJ's because they sound "just like the record" LOL!!! When it comes to most dance music it's all sequenced or sampled anyway. I can hire a cover band at $300 a night that has a song list of 40 or 50 tunes, or I can hire a DJ at $300 a night that has 10,000 songs on CD or in an Ipod. Most clubs will go with the DJ unless the patrons bitch about it. (Funny Story: I know a DJ guy who convinced a club owner in Ventura to hire him instead of a live band for a weekend night. He fopund out real fast that bikers really don't care for Christina, Ashlee, Britney, and Techno CD's. All he had were a couple of compilations with a handful of Crue, AC/DC, and '80's pop metal hits. You know it's bad when the customers go out to their cars and bring you their Aerosmith CD. Needless to say he was out of his element.)
People don't demand quality. Most people who aren't musicians don't know or really care if the band is any good. They sort of know a good band when they hear one, but unless they are afreind of yours and specifically there to see you, they are usually there to get a buzz and try to hook up with members of the opposite sex. The band might be farther down on the list of importance.
We're too f*ckin' loud!!! Accept it or not, but 50% of the time we play too loud for the room. Some clubowners want you to be loud because they are under the impression that when people talk less they drink more. If you clear the room when you start playing either you really suck, or you're too loud. It's the #1 complaint I hear and experience personally when I watch other bands. It's simply too loud to be enjoyable. It's one thing if you're playing the Whisky, but anotehr entirely if you're playing a small room.
I see the problems, but I haven't a clue what the answer is. It's a tough way to make a living, which is why most of us have day jobs. Hey, I've been in signed bands, toured some big venues and even have a couple of RIAA gold records. I've got a day gig to make a good overall living.
It seems to me the first answer to the problem is that musicians need to forget about playing for free and hope that there's a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. I see a lot of guys who fall into that mentality. Sometimes it's OK to say no when you're getting raw deal.
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#1645453 - 04/20/05 12:59 AM
Re: Crowd size
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Strangerbytheminute
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Registered: 11/29/04
Posts: 190
Loc: Seattle
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You know....I really can't bitch. I have it good. I play weekly for crowds that don't always give the respect you'd like them to but I' playing original tunes and getting payed, If front of people, although very drunk people.
I talked to a guy today who played in the very best venue in Seattle for concert settings and they pretty much told him they didn't like what he does. He's a nice guy and deserves better but that would be devastaing. The thing is...he only plays once a month. I'll take my small dives and pay my dues cause I can feel it taking, and I feel like I can play any venue now and I feel like I could play every night. It goes up and down but When it's up it great.......
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#1645454 - 04/20/05 02:23 AM
Re: Crowd size
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GZsound
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Loc: Somewhere in Oregon
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Well, I have a theory about why live music has slowly gone away. Technology has not helped the problem at all.
In the sixties and seventies the bands could do cover tunes and sound like the original artists..sometimes even better.
As recording technology got better it became harder and harder to sound like the original bands...I mean what live band can do an Eagles tune with a 30 voice layered harmony part? People listened to the radio and expected to hear their local live band play what they heard..instead they got a live band version of a multi thousand dollar layered, looped, sequenced, etc. tune.
So starting in the late eighties with the electronic music, highly overdubbed and layered music impossible to play live, add in the stiffer drunk driving laws, and the seemingly strange need some bands have to be as loud as they possibly can play and the "folks" just got tired of hearing a band.
Instead, they can now go to a Karoake bar and make fools of themselves and laugh at other fools without the volume problems and without the band sounding like a bad copy of a song they used to really like. Now THEY sound like bad copies of songs they used to really like.
And with other bands willing to play for free..which is getting overpayed in some cases...the live club scene sucks overall..period.
I admit it. I am a musical whore anymore. Follow the money, get the corporate and private gigs, get the festivals and make the money. I think I have sacrificed enough years for my "art". Now I just want to get paid.
_________________________
Mark G.
"A man may fail many times, but he isn't a failure until he begins to blame others" -- John Burroughs
"I consider ethics, as well as religion, as supplements to law in the government of man." -- Thomas Jefferson
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#1645455 - 04/20/05 09:45 AM
Re: Crowd size
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GTRBass
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Registered: 12/03/03
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Loc: Los Angeles, Ca
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GZ's right.
The Karaoke thing is interactive entertainment for the patrons which is popular because it's an activity like a dart league or a bar sponsored softball or bowling team. It's relatively inexpensive to do and yes the CD's in the Karaoke machine are better volume controlled than a live band.
Break it down this way:
If your an Original band, you're promoting your music. You are trying to break into the big leagues and there's very little money in it. This is attractive to club owners who don't want to shell out much for live entertainment. You offset your meager fee from the club by selling CD's and other merch. Club owners try to rape you because they play on your desire for "exposure".
The run of the mill cover band plays songs that were hits once upon a time and are staples. In California it seems like these bands all have the same basic set list with a few variations. If I had to play Black Velvet or Mustang Sally one more time I was gonna shoot myself!!! Whether you're rock, blues or country there's an interchangability to the bands and players in them.
Straight Top 40 bands, where you play current chart hits are becoming a white elephant. Other than rock or country, most modern top 40 dance music is largely sequenced and sampled anyway. Just the technology alone is hard to keep up with. This is where DJ's have taken over not just the club scene but the Top 40 chart itself.
Casual gigs with solo, duo, or small bands will always be around for corporate cocktail parties, etc. This is lucrative and you're nothing more than musical wallpaper. You're not the entertainment, just background ambience. Jazzheads love these gigs because they can usually get away with playing some pretty off the wall stuff and no one notices. I was in Nashville last year and saw a casual band at a big corporate cocktail party where the ensemble in the corner was vibes, a guy on a Roland guitar synth, and a bassist. I noticed some pretty impressive but very subtle weirdness coming out of them.
Show bands are where the real money is. Corporate gigs, big niteclubs and casinos are the venues. I've seen a fair number of bar bands try to do this and fail miserably because they don't understand the rules. You're an entertainer first and foremost. It's not about you, it's about the audience. The big show band trend now is tribute bands. Personally, I'm waiting for that "Men without Hats" tribute band to come along before I dive in.
As far as being a "musical whore", are you any more of a whore for doing what is necessary to succeed as an entertainer than the person who goes to work every day and follows company policies and procedures? If I go to work and decide to do my job to the beat of my own drummer, I'm going to be unemployed pretty quick. As an independent contractor, you set your own policies, but you'll starve if you don't deliver the goods.
Personally I don't care what kind of act you are in, your job is to entertain people. The Rolling Stones have been on top of the game for over 40 years and are a multi-Billion dollar (yes, that's correct) corporation because they entertained people. There's a lot more forethought in that than luck. It's about the whole package, songs, stageshow, branding, etc.
It seems to me that the arrogant idiot over in the corner bitching about his "artistic integrity" is a bore to the audience. Being a musician is a job we love to do, but it's still a job, and I mean that in a good way. You have to remain focused on entertaining people and measure your success by their satisfaction, not your own.
Great quote:
"When I go onstage, my focus is the job at hand. I can go home and play Schoenberg 12 tone row music for myself till my heart's content."
Dan Hairfield - longtime Vegas showband bassist
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#1645456 - 04/20/05 06:53 PM
Re: Crowd size
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Curious_G
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Registered: 11/09/01
Posts: 247
Loc: Gulph Mills,PA,UNITED STATES
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Love your gig, love the music, don't depend on the $$$ and all will be well with the world. It'd be great to get paid what I make in my day job for an hour's worth of work but that's not going to happen unless lightening strikes. In the meantime I like to keep it positive when it comes to music. The reality bites but it is what it is and it ain't gonna make me quit. Corporate gigs are great but they don't come 'round often for an original band. Private parties and festivals pay best for us and are a ton of fun. We just like playing bars I guess... (other than the stink of my clothes afterwards), we sure don't do it for the money!
_________________________
Got Twang? http://www.DeSotoRust.com "Interesting fact: the more gear a band brings in, the less people show up. This rule is almost universally true." JJ the Blue Moon
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#1645457 - 04/21/05 01:02 AM
Re: Crowd size
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GZsound
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What I meant by the term "musical whore" is that after paying my dues in original bands, jazz bands, classic rock and roll bands, top 40 bands, etc. and slogging it out with the billion other similar musicians, I finally started a show band with only one goal..to make as much money as we possibly can.
Stupid costumes, silly hats, goofy on-stage antics, the most basic of cover tunes.. Mustang Sally, Louie Louie, Old Time Rock And Roll, etc. Whatever it takes to make the money, get the audience involved and have fun all at the same time.
For the last year it has worked remarkably well. We are booking into December, raised our rate to what we used to get for four weekends at a bar and getting the corporate, festival and wedding gigs that don't mind paying that kind of money for entertainment, but we really put on a SHOW.
I think the bottom line is that I no longer have anything to prove musically. I now play because I love it and enjoy watching folks have a great time when we play. We played a gig for a bunch of event planners last Sunday. Two hours. The average age in the room was at least 65. We had every single audience member in a conga line around the room while I played "Tequilla" on my sax..
Priceless.. That simply never happened when we just played our originals.
_________________________
Mark G.
"A man may fail many times, but he isn't a failure until he begins to blame others" -- John Burroughs
"I consider ethics, as well as religion, as supplements to law in the government of man." -- Thomas Jefferson
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#1645458 - 04/21/05 07:21 AM
Re: Crowd size
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Curious_G
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Registered: 11/09/01
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Loc: Gulph Mills,PA,UNITED STATES
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Originally posted by GZsound:
...I now play because I love it and enjoy watching folks have a great time when we play.... 
_________________________
Got Twang? http://www.DeSotoRust.com "Interesting fact: the more gear a band brings in, the less people show up. This rule is almost universally true." JJ the Blue Moon
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#1645459 - 04/21/05 02:25 PM
Re: Crowd size
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Strangerbytheminute
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(other than the stink of my clothes afterwards)
This cigarette thing has got to stop.
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#1645460 - 04/21/05 04:06 PM
Re: Crowd size
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Curious_G
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Registered: 11/09/01
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Loc: Gulph Mills,PA,UNITED STATES
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I don't mind the smell while I'm playing (and although I'm not a smoker, it's usually more than just cigarretts... an overall "bar stank") I just don't want to sleep in the same room with those clothes... Wish more of the clubs had air filters.
Quite honestly, I don't know if we'd get bigger crowds or smaller ones if/when they impose a smoking ban. In Philly the ban is already in the works.
_________________________
Got Twang? http://www.DeSotoRust.com "Interesting fact: the more gear a band brings in, the less people show up. This rule is almost universally true." JJ the Blue Moon
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#1645461 - 04/21/05 07:44 PM
Re: Crowd size
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strat0124
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Registered: 04/03/01
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In Lynchburg, its expected for your band to do covers. Original music is rarely appreciated. Though I've been trying to throw in some cowpunk or anything that raises an eyebrow. Norfolk was better, but those who said you'll lose your following if you play too much in town is DEAD on.
_________________________
Down like a dollar comin up against a yen, doin pretty good for the shape I'm in
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#1645462 - 04/21/05 07:48 PM
Re: Crowd size
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GZsound
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Loc: Somewhere in Oregon
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Ha, talk about smoking... I clean my sax mouthpiece and goosneck before every gig. Last weekend I was in the restroom cleaning the gooseneck and a dead fly came out.
I must have inhaled the bug and given it quite a ride through the reed on the way to it's final resting place. There is no other way it could have gotten up there.. mmmmm..snacks.
_________________________
Mark G.
"A man may fail many times, but he isn't a failure until he begins to blame others" -- John Burroughs
"I consider ethics, as well as religion, as supplements to law in the government of man." -- Thomas Jefferson
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#1645463 - 04/22/05 08:27 PM
Re: Crowd size
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Nightshademetal
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Loc: Eastport. N.Y.
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I hate to break it to everybody, the large clubs are gone,(at least on Long Island) and at that so is the money. You are stuck playing on a postage stamp stage, (if there is one) stuck near the kitchen. I'll do "bar smell" as opposed to smelling like French fries.(it lasts longer). With the event of the age change (18 to 21) and the DWI laws it just about killed the "bar scene" in this area. Plus most of the local townships have inacted "noise ordanances" which in some cases mean no outside ampilcation. (accoustic only!!!) This is kind of tough if you play keyboards like I do. Hell, I was shut down by the cops doing a DJ gig. Just be thankful to be able to play live. Pete
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#1645464 - 04/22/05 11:14 PM
Re: Crowd size
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Strangerbytheminute
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Registered: 11/29/04
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Loc: Seattle
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Love your gig, love the music, don't depend on the $$$ and all will be well with the world.
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