#1626375 - 02/12/01 01:06 PM
cowrite credit for producer-whats fair?
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paddoq
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Registered: 02/09/01
Posts: 10
Loc: new york,NY,UNITED STATES
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i have a hard disk based project studio that i have mostly been using for my own projects and stuff with friends - (i work a day job that pays for it). Some projects i have done have given me some leads (inadvertently) to getting asked by other artists to produce material for them, which i am happy about but has put me in some new & confusing territory.
My current project is a debut album for a singer - the singer has a lot of contacts and has worked on some high profile recording projects with other artists. The singers plan is to shop the recordings to labels with a view to getting signed and releasing the tracks we have done as an album. Or alternatively if not signed, it would be released independently.
I agreed to this project for a fixed fee (relatively small) and the project has blown out time wise.
On most all of the songs the singer came to me with only lyrics and melody. These lyrics and melody were laid down to a click and a reference drone root note in the chosen key. I then composed all of the 'music' chords etc. around this, i then created parts and played all of the instruments on the tracks. A couple of the songs we composed the chords together, she does
not have an understanding of chords, but i would play stuff and she would indicate what she likes etc..
The question I am primarily concerned about is this.
Is there any 'rules' as to whether i should get songwriting credits on any of these songs, and if so to what extent? I feel as though i should get a co-writing credit, but as i have never had to deal with this before I am not certain. I am not certain what the singer thinks, this is her first
time recording her own 'songs' and i fear she may think that the lyric and melody alone is the whole songwriting effort. If i have to explain to her that i should get a co-write credit i would first like to be sure that it is generally accepted that in such a situation this is fair. I would also
like to be able to cite similar examples so she would not feel like i was trying to rip her off, (e.g. it appears that on madonnas 'ray of light' album marius devries gets a co-writing credit, and i am guessing that whole project was a very similar scenario to mine..??)
The other thing i am curious about is this. I understand that if the singer gets signed the label will probably want to have everthing redone with their own producer. The singer assures me that my tracks will be the keepers, but i would like to plan ahead. I don't want the singer to
feel guilty about accepting a deal with a label who demands that, but i don't want to miss out of production credits (my only other chance of getting remuneration). I have heard of a buy out contract ,where i cut an agreement with the singer where the label would have to buy the right
to re produce the songs off me. Is this common ? What is a fair rate to suggest per song or per album? Is this a recommended way to deal with this issue?
Yes i understand that foolishly i have entered into this arrangement without having thought of any of this first, and having no paper agreements. That was unwise of me, however as i stated i am quite new to all this, and just did not realize all the pitfalls.
Any help or suggestions would be greatly appreciated
THANKYOU
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#1626376 - 02/13/01 06:22 PM
Re: cowrite credit for producer-whats fair?
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Doctor Al
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Registered: 05/05/00
Posts: 192
Loc: ,,US
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Boy, your story smacks of MY early days in the biz.
First I wopuld congenially bring up the songwriting credit topic with the artist. Not negatively, but curiously. Her reply will pretty much tell you everything. I've co-written albums with artists and a) not been credited or paid for it b) been paid a flat fee c) given fair recompense for what I contributed (Lynyrd Skynyrd is a good example of that.)
In one instance, my inquiry about my participation in songwriting royalties and credits completely destroyed the chemistry, and I was canned shortly thereafter. This didn't mean that I was legally or morally wrong; it meant the artists management was particularly greedy. In your case, you have nothing to fall back on as i did. I had my producer's deal. So far, you're in a particularly bad position here legally. HOWEVER, it's the beginning of your career and you seem to have learned what your initial mistakes were. If you can correct them without upsetting the chemistry with the artist, that would be ideal. If the record company signs the artist based on your demos, and then hires a super-producer to work with her, you should morally recieve a small percentage of that albums sales, in my humble opinion. I guess it's time to seek out an attorney. What I did was find an attorney who was competent but not high-powered; someone who was basically in the same position I was. Over the years we grew together and now he is with one of the top firms in the biz. His fees were quite fair as we came up together and that's what you should look for. If you can afford a big shot well then it's a no-brainer but otherwise, this is a good way to network and build relationships from the ground floor up.
Feel the artist out (not up) gently, and decide what to do from her reactions. Then come back and let us all know what happened. Good luck!!!
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#1626377 - 02/13/01 06:54 PM
Re: cowrite credit for producer-whats fair?
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paddoq
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Registered: 02/09/01
Posts: 10
Loc: new york,NY,UNITED STATES
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hi al,
thanks so much for the advice. nice to hear that others have been through similar scenarios to me. it is nice to be also reassured that i am not out of line in suggestion that it is fair i participate to some extent in credits/royalties.
i have been given some other advice since my post that suggested that co-write credits could be split into words and music, and the music part could be split into melody & chords. Because the singer did the melody & i did the chords i guess it seems fair that i suggest i get 50% of the music part (or 25% of the total), and the credit could be words by singer and music by singer and myself (i noticed this credit method used on some tracks on alanis morrisets - supposed former infatuation junkie with glen ballard, and also some tracks on bebel gilberto's tanto tantum (sp?))
i will do as suggested, and have the discussion we have a very good relationship so far, and hopefully it will remain that way after the discussion.
i will also bring up the scenario about the label wanting to have their own producer do the album , tho i suspect this will be a much easier sell.
i will also take your advice and start to try and get associated with a lawyer..
i will certainly get back to the forum and post the results of our chat and let you know how i got on...!
wish me luck.
thanks again..
patrick
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#1626378 - 02/14/01 03:21 PM
Re: cowrite credit for producer-whats fair?
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dhmusic@mindspring.com
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Registered: 12/19/00
Posts: 124
Loc: Valley Village,CA,UNITED STATE...
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Wow this is really the 64 dollar question for us musician-producers out there. Even established bigshots take on 'baby bands' all the time.
It's taken me awhile and I'm not saying I got it figured out by a long stretch-you should definitely get with a symapthetic attorney--
but I a couple things I typically do, and they've seemed to work so far.
First I just think that if two people walk into a room to write a song ( and there ain't a song there yet)...and three hours later they walk out of the room and there is a song there...that barring any prearranged deal, they both wrote the song.
Since music is arguably a bigger component of the song's content and character than melody (especially nowdays!) I know folks who constructed their shares as 33-33-33 lyrics, melody, and arrangement(the music). It only makes sense.
What if you come upwith the killer hook that makes the song a hit?
Then as producer I'd suggest keeping track of all your time and hours, etc with the idea that you will be recouped upon the artist signing a deal...and perhaps also work out an agreement that entitles you to a certain point on a record of a song you recorded, even if it ends up being re-recorded later...(ask your lawyer about a 3-2-1 deal)
(Obviously you don'twanna get so far into this stuff that you forget to write the song.)
Good luck.
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#1626379 - 02/14/01 10:29 PM
Re: cowrite credit for producer-whats fair?
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Doctor Al
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Posts: 192
Loc: ,,US
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>>>>>>Since music is arguably a bigger component of the song's content and character than melody (especially nowdays!) I know folks who constructed their shares as 33-33-33 lyrics, melody, and arrangement(the music). It only makes sense.
What if you come upwith the killer hook that makes the song a hit?<<<<<<
Lets get sometrhing very clear here. A song broken down to it's most basic compoonents consists of melody, chords & lyrics. An arrangement is not part of songwritring. Look at the credits for "Yesterday" & "Eleanor Rigby" by the Beatles. Could they have been any better arranged by anyone other than George Martin? The arrangements were a major factor in the ebjoyment of those records. What do the SONGwriting credits say? Lennon-McCartney not Lennon-McCartrney-Martin. Ya know why? Cause Sir George was the arranger and that was his job. To write the best arrangement possible. When Reggie Young played the guitar hooks on "Drift Away" by Dobie Gray, he was hired as a studio MUSICIAN. His job was to play the best guitar he could on the song. His name is NOT on the songwriting credits and SHOULDN'T be.
I just had to get that off my chest. I'm a songwriter/studio musician/arranger/ andf producer and I know where the boundaries are, trust me.
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#1626380 - 02/15/01 02:50 AM
Re: cowrite credit for producer-whats fair?
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dhmusic@mindspring.com
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Registered: 12/19/00
Posts: 124
Loc: Valley Village,CA,UNITED STATE...
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Yeah of course..mea culpas all around. I didn't express that thought very clearly at all... musta been too early in the morning. What I was trying to get at, was there can be a point where the lines blur
and a producer can find himself with a song that maybe is not quite finished, and once he starts adding music it starts to take the melody in a different direction...and crosses that boundary into really helping to craft the song's melody...at which point you're writing, as well as producing. Which (to my knowledge) Mr Martin didn't need to do...those songs stood on their own, man!!
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#1626381 - 02/20/01 01:17 PM
Re: cowrite credit for producer-whats fair?
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paddoq
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Registered: 02/09/01
Posts: 10
Loc: new york,NY,UNITED STATES
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hi all,
i had the chat, it went very well.. phew...! the singer understood the songwriting credit part, and was even thinking about it herself already.. Also was agreeable to the idea of entering into some kind of agreement where i would get 'bought out' by the record label, if they do not want to use my tracks and want to use their own producer, or at least get paid out for the outstanding studio fees that i am forgoing right now.
so we have agreed to sit down and work out all the details of this stuff. i am very relieved and thanks for all your help on this stuff.
patrick
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#1626382 - 02/21/01 01:37 PM
Re: cowrite credit for producer-whats fair?
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Doctor Al
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Registered: 05/05/00
Posts: 192
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<>>
Consider yourself lucky you're working with someone fair and reasonable right off the bat. Next time, you may not be so lucky. It doesn't ALWAYS go this smoothly, believe me. Nowadays, I won't even go near something that's got an inkling of bad chemistry.
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