#1626346 - 01/23/01 08:43 PM
To sing or not to sing, that is the question
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fet
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Registered: 01/04/01
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I'm a part-time guitarist who performs regularly in a variety of styles. For a long time I've avoided singing; I can do it in an average/acceptable way, but I'd rather not. Sometimes when jobbing I sing because no one else will, and somebody's got to do it! (like cleaning the bathroom).
Obviously in pop/rock/blues music in modern America, vocals are the thing that audiences care about most. If I sing, I can enhance my employability 100%. But I don't enjoy it, and my guitar playing is 1000% better than my singing.
I know that the true answer is "s__t or get off the pot"; but here's what I'm wrestling with: work on improving a mediocre skill (vocals) or forget it and concentrate on my superior skill (guitar). Anybody else in this situation?
Thanks for your perspective, all who respond.
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#1626347 - 01/23/01 11:38 PM
Re: To sing or not to sing, that is the question
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spunkywinkerbean
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Registered: 01/22/01
Posts: 230
Loc: NY,AK,UNITED STATES
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I vote that you should sing.
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#1626348 - 01/24/01 02:08 AM
Re: To sing or not to sing, that is the question
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Lee Flier
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Registered: 09/13/00
Posts: 15398
Loc: Atlanta,GA,UNITED STATES
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Damn fet, I feel your pain. I can sing OK, and I enjoy singing harmony vocals, but I would really rather not sing lead. However, as a songwriter, when I'm recording demos, I have to. To top it off I'm female and I generally have male vocals, or male/female duet vocals, in mind when I write. And like you, my guitar playing is a couple of thousand times better than my singing.
It would be a lot easier in some ways if I worked on becoming a better singer. On the other hand, between playing, producing, engineering and writing, I kinda have a lot on my plate already.  And really I'd rather find a great singer/cowriter to collaborate with. I think that is part of what my "dilemma" is telling me - that what I really need is a great singer.
I don't know if that's the same situation as you're in. You mentiond "employability" - that is not a consideration for me, so much as that a great singer is not easy to find, and when you do find one they're almost invariably a pain in the ass. Still, I think that's what I'm going to do, step up the search for a singer. Even though it can't hurt me to work harder on my singing since I'm in demo mode right now anyway.
Don't know if that helps you any, but that's my perspective.
--Lee
This message has been edited by Lee Flier on 01-23-2001 at 11:10 PM
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#1626349 - 01/24/01 07:21 AM
Re: To sing or not to sing, that is the question
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Curve Dominant
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Registered: 10/29/00
Posts: 4223
Loc: Philadelphia USA
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Sing your life, many others do, so why shouldn't you? Do you want to...?
(Props to Morrissy)
Any fool can make up words that rhyme...
So many others do, so why shouldn't you? Oh, sing your life...
walk right up to the microphone and say
all the things that you love...
and all the things that you loathe...
Oh, sing your life...
Make no mistake, my friend, your pointless life will end,
but before you go,
take a look at the truth:
you have a luvely singing voice - a luvely singing voice
And all of those...who sing on key -
They stole the notion from you and me!
SO SING YOUR LIFE...
This message has been edited by Curve Dominant on 01-24-2001 at 04:27 AM
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#1626350 - 01/24/01 03:14 PM
Re: To sing or not to sing, that is the question
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fet
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Registered: 01/04/01
Posts: 145
Loc: ,,UNITED STATES
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Thanks for these thoughtful replies. You know, I've heard Satriani, Johnson and Ford sing on their recordings, but I've got to wonder why... their vocals bring me far less musical pleasure than those of Rodgers, Franklin, Vandross, etc. (who don't play much guitar on record, AFAIK).
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#1626351 - 01/24/01 07:12 PM
Re: To sing or not to sing, that is the question
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Doctor Al
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Posts: 192
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when i started out with The Blues Project. our lead singer quit early on and some of us were drafted into singing. My career progressed from there, but in the peak years of it, my singing was pretty average. I always tried to improve it, but I'm not the type to take lessons. As I got older, I got wiser. I learned how to improve my singing and what I had been doing wrong. I probably sing 100% better now than I did as a full time rock n roller. Don't forsake your instrumental prowess, but it's always interesting to learn a new instrument and the best thing about singing is you dont have to go out and buy a new axe. Just always be true to yourself, and do your best to improve your singing AND your guitar-playing. Good luck!
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#1626352 - 01/24/01 10:49 PM
Re: To sing or not to sing, that is the question
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boBGudgel
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Registered: 04/13/00
Posts: 45
Loc: Everett,WA
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I don't like my voice too much, (others tell me they DO), but, when I need to record a vocal, I take advantage of my DAW and immediate feedback and re-trying to tweak the part. I'll sit and sing (with headphones) into the mic and develop the singing "feel" of the part until I can stand myself. Then I find that some effects (compression etc.) help even more and then it's not quite so bad. Sometimes I surprise myself.
boB
This message has been edited by boBGudgel on 01-24-2001 at 07:51 PM
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#1626353 - 01/25/01 01:36 AM
Re: To sing or not to sing, that is the question
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Lee Flier
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Loc: Atlanta,GA,UNITED STATES
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Ha! I hear you Bob, I can get by in the studio, it's live gigs that'll really get ya! Also, I have seasonal allergies that really block my sinuses and mess with my throat - any "real" singers out there who deal with allergies and how do you do it?
Al, you say that as you got older you learned what to do to improve your singing, and what you had been doing wrong - care to share some tips on that? I'm not the lessons type either! 
--Lee
This message has been edited by Lee Flier on 01-24-2001 at 10:37 PM
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#1626354 - 01/25/01 05:52 PM
Re: To sing or not to sing, that is the question
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kent_powell@palmercay.com
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Registered: 08/24/00
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Loc: Irving,TX,UNITED STATES
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Hey, if you REALLY don't want to sing, don't. No one should beg you. If you're gonna lose work over it, hire a vocalist. Performing should be fun. If it's not, you'll soon quit.
"When I was young, we were very poor. So I stole a loaf of bread, froze it, and used it to rob a bank."
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#1626355 - 01/26/01 03:41 AM
Re: To sing or not to sing, that is the question
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dhmusic@mindspring.com
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Registered: 12/19/00
Posts: 124
Loc: Valley Village,CA,UNITED STATE...
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You say you're a much better player than singer. I bet you also practice/play guitar a hell of a lot more than you actually sing.
I'd suggest finding ten songs you actually dig, and just work them over. Its just like anything else. You gotta work at it, and listen. Record them.
Lots of singers are actually lazy with phrasing. Working on good timing, and delivery, helps.
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#1626356 - 01/26/01 05:39 AM
Re: To sing or not to sing, that is the question
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jermush@flinthills.com
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Registered: 01/11/01
Posts: 53
Loc: Manhattan,KS,UNITED STATES
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All of these replys make sense, but only you know what your voice can and can't do, just as only you know what you can and can't do on a guitar. As with any other career, take note of your strengths and weaknesses, and find the job that allows you to make the most use of your talents. Some people sound good on one song, but suck on another. In my current band, when we decide to do a cover of a song, we try to pick songs that fit our talents, not just our taste...and finally, don't be afraid to make mistakes, as that will point you in which direction to work on, and your talent and confidence will grow, as will you....
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#1626357 - 01/26/01 05:40 AM
Re: To sing or not to sing, that is the question
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Curve Dominant
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Posts: 4223
Loc: Philadelphia USA
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All the greatest singers really worked hard to be better - Sinatra, Jim Morrison, they all really wanted to do it badly and be good at it, and would do whatever it took to be good. But there's a point - I call it "the bicycle threshold," because it becomes like riding a bike, when you can sing anything, anytime, anywhere, and be totally confident about it. And it is amazing, once you get there. You can sing through fatigue, sickness, intoxication, allergies, stagefright, whatever. But you have to go through an inferno of frustration to get there.
Take it from me: it's worth it.
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#1626358 - 01/26/01 04:12 PM
Re: To sing or not to sing, that is the question
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Doctor Al
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When I first started playing professionally, I sang songs that I wrote. Some of them I wrote in certain keys where they just sounded right. These weren't necessarily the best keys for ME to sing them in, but I sang them anyway. As I got older, I began to change the keys to fit my voice. THAT helped a great deal. In the studio, if you can hear what you're singing clearly in the phones, it will definetly help your pitch. The same holds true for live gigs but whoever has great monitor mixes on live gigs? So, if you can hear your voice clearly, you should be able to pitch much better than without hearing it.
Also it's great to listen to great singers to inspire yourself a little higher. I listen to a lot of gospel music because the singing is so first rate. This isnspires me to reach a little higher in my singing (just not out of my range!)
Hope this helps
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#1626359 - 01/26/01 05:13 PM
Re: To sing or not to sing, that is the question
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dhmusic@mindspring.com
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Registered: 12/19/00
Posts: 124
Loc: Valley Village,CA,UNITED STATE...
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fet:
Here's just another thought on this, because it feels close to home for me:
When I started out on guitar at the age of 10, and got in my first band in junior high, my greatest dream was to just play rhythm guitar in a rock band.
I didn't care or want anything else, and I didn't have the big ego I thought being a 'lead player' required...soon I was soloing because no one else in my garage band could do it.
In my 20s, the lead singer in my band called to say he was cancelling a bunch of our gigs because he had gotten sick. I said I'd sing and cover for him, ....(I didn't wanna give up the money...) I was shaking on stage, totally blew my throat in the first set...but I got the hang of it.
You get the idea. I began to see a pattern developing. Everything new I learned, it seemed, was only because I was being FORCED to, in a sense, I was cornered. What a lazy ass, I thought.
It went on. Writing songs, doing charts, music directing, ...yadda yadda...all, out of sheer necessity--because the guy/girl I thought was supposed to do it, either couldn't or wouldn't. The house engineer left two guitars out of one of our mixes...so, hey, I learned that fucking board and fired him.
So...now I front a band, have done several albums, blah blah...I'm not proud. I think part of it's just human nature.
I wish it were different but I know that if I'da found a great singer and manager when I was 12, I think I'd still be playing rhythm guitar.
Probably out of the same amp.
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#1626360 - 01/28/01 07:47 PM
Re: To sing or not to sing, that is the question
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Tedster
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Registered: 09/21/00
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Fet...
Go ahead and sing. You don't need to start out as the cat's ass, just get started. Toss in a couple of easy tunes. Do some backups. There's not a band in the world that overdoes backups. Sure, it takes time, like learning a new instrument. But once it happens, there is NO GREATER HIGH in the world than singing your cajones off whilst blasting away at the geetar. The energy is phenomenal.
I heard Eric Johnson sing on the video of the G3 tour. He doesn't have a bad voice, just no power or conviction. If he'd take a little time to develop that, he'd reach a potential he's only partially tapping with his guitar.
I think of one of my all time faves, Johnny Winter (in his heyday...) balls-to-the-wall vocals, kickass guitar...great stuff. Put on "Still alive and well" the first track, "Rock Me Baby". You'll see what I mean.
_________________________
"Cisco Kid, was a friend of mine...(WAH WAH WAH WAHHH!)"
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#1626361 - 01/28/01 08:05 PM
Re: To sing or not to sing, that is the question
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Uh Clem
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Posts: 3442
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D'ya think Neil Young ever worried about that? Whenever I start to blame my lack of technique for anything, I go listen to Neil Young.
I saw a cool show once - Keith Richards, Ron Wood, Stanley Clark - can't remember the other - The New Barbarians they were called.
Keith did most of the singing - what a show - I never even missed Mick for a moment. Best version of Jumpin' Jack Flash I ever heard. (of course we were well equipped and had front row seats).
If the song has words and you're the only one there, then sing it like ya mean it!
This message has been edited by stevepow on 01-28-2001 at 05:07 PM
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#1626362 - 01/28/01 09:01 PM
Re: To sing or not to sing, that is the question
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Lee Flier
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Al: thanks for the tips, that was very helpful!
Steve: LOL I agree with you, many of my favorite "singers" can't really sing at all if you get right down to it.... and hey, I saw the New Barbarians too! Keith, Woody, Stanley Clarke, Ian McLagan, Bobby Keys, and Zigabu Modeliste - man, talk about an all-star cast! And what a fun show! One of the most fun shows I've ever been to in fact...
and nary a real singer in the place! I have a couple of bootlegs from that tour and also some great bootlegs of Keith singing country songs and playing the piano - amazing. Well, don't get me started about Keith or I'll go on all night.
dhmusic: I hear ya on learning new things because no one else will do it - that sounds a lot like how things went for me! And I remember hearing this interview with Bob Dylan one time, where he said the reason he started writing songs was because no one else was writing what he wanted to play. If anyone had, he said, he'd have been happy singing cover songs his whole life!
This has turned into a really cool thread!
--Lee
This message has been edited by Lee Flier on 01-28-2001 at 06:04 PM
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#1626363 - 01/31/01 08:00 PM
Re: To sing or not to sing, that is the question
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KidCharlemagne
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Registered: 01/31/01
Posts: 122
Loc: charlestown,MA,UNITED STATES
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I'm actually a little different from most of the replies in that i love to sing (with my limited tenor) and wish i had the ego and the voice to pull it off better. but i also need the skills. so, what do you recommend for improving the instrument? phrasing is really hard while you're playing something different from the head (i'm a keyboardist)
and making sure my voice doesn't sound like a screeching honking old goat (it can sound nice, if a little thin) can be quite challenging. Suggestions and practice techniques?
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#1626364 - 02/02/01 03:22 AM
Re: To sing or not to sing, that is the question
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Batman_dup1
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Registered: 02/16/01
Posts: 311
Loc: London,,UNITED KINGDOM
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Enthusiastic cunnilingus is the answer.
As you're a keyboardist (I assume this refers to your familiarity with the piano forte rather than Word 6), your muscular and nimble fingers
should prove irressistable to to the opposite/same sex (depending on your sexual pedelictions)
The main thing in singing is "grain" in the voice....this is more essential than tuning, phrasing or anything else...
The epitome of grain alone is possibly "North Country Girl" by Bob and Johnny Cash, on "Nashville Skyline"...For grain plus the rest, listen to Sam Cooke, Elvis or Pavarotti....
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#1626365 - 02/02/01 03:29 AM
Re: To sing or not to sing, that is the question
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Batman_dup1
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Registered: 02/16/01
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Originally posted by Curve Dominant:
All the greatest singers really worked hard to be better - Sinatra, Jim Morrison, they all really wanted to do it badly and be good at it, and would do whatever it took to be good. But there's a point - I call it "the bicycle threshold," because it becomes like riding a bike, when you can sing anything, anytime, anywhere, and be totally confident about it. And it is amazing, once you get there. You can sing through fatigue, sickness, intoxication, allergies, stagefright, whatever. But you have to go through an inferno of frustration to get there.
Take it from me: it's worth it.
Nice to see you're still talking absolute bollocks, Curve. We have a lovely Place Of Natural Beauty, called Beachy Head......I'd be honoured to help you, and your bicycle over it in the near future...
Best Regards..etc...
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#1626366 - 02/09/01 05:21 PM
Re: To sing or not to sing, that is the question
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BK_dup2
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Registered: 03/19/01
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It has taken me two years to even want to attempt to record my voice. I got my buddy to engineer for me last night. I just had to face the music so to speak. He gave me constructive feedback and we had a good laugh a couple of times when I started sounding like James Coburn thru a cheese grater. When I stop taking myself so seriously is when I relax and get better takes.
Its nice to see that I am not alone in this VOCAL crux. I think I am just tired of trying to find a vocalist who isn't a shitheel.
These replies really help..
BK
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#1626367 - 02/11/01 12:30 AM
Re: To sing or not to sing, that is the question
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Anonymous
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Change the key to fit your voice. You'll enjoy singing more and you'll sound better. Yes the character of the song will change but it will sound better than forcing your voice where it can't go. Also, reinterpretation of the song is better than mimicry.
I was always reluctant to change keys until recently when I compared the recordings of the song Up On The Roof by the Drifters, James Taylor and Carole King. All three version sound great, in the keys of Ab, F and C.
Arrange the song around your voice and you should be pleased.
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#1626368 - 02/15/01 03:38 AM
Re: To sing or not to sing, that is the question
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Tedster
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One of the funniest things I've heard regarding that was an interview with McCartney where he was talking about some recent show where he was supposed to perform "Long Tall Sally". He said during rehearsal they kicked it off in G, which was the key The Beatles did it in...and quickly lowered it to F#, then F, and finally settled on E. Ain't getting old fun?
_________________________
"Cisco Kid, was a friend of mine...(WAH WAH WAH WAHHH!)"
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#1626369 - 02/15/01 12:42 PM
Re: To sing or not to sing, that is the question
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brianrost
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Registered: 02/01/01
Posts: 93
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Originally posted by fet:
If I sing, I can enhance my employability 100%. But I don't enjoy it, and my guitar playing is 1000% better than my singing..
OK, simple question, do you need to be 100% more employable? If not, then forget about it. The way I look at it is that any skill I lack that causes me to lose good gigs is a skill worth learning.
By the way I understand that bassist Will Lee gets more session calls for his singing now than for his bass playing!!!
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#1626370 - 02/15/01 09:23 PM
Re: To sing or not to sing, that is the question
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Graham English
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Registered: 02/13/01
Posts: 335
Loc: Somerville, MA USA
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There's a great Book/CD/Video you can find at Border's or probably B & N called "you can sing a high C." Very valuable to any beginning or experienced singer. Not just about range but quality as well. Good luck. Put your mind to it and it can be done
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