#1626208 - 10/09/00 11:52 AM
Ripping stuff off you didn't know you ripped-off
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c.cash
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Mr. Kooper:
Since so many melodies have been used by so many artists (damn Beatles), it's very easy to be driving along, all of a sudden you have this great song pop in your head from nowhere, only to start second-guessing whether it's an original idea or if it's something you've heard before - subconsciously ripping it off.
I seem to remember hearing about some search or service that checks your work out to see if you've in fact done the latter. Do you know anything more about this?
Curt
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#1626209 - 10/10/00 02:36 AM
Re: Ripping stuff off you didn't know you ripped-off
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Anonymous
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Sorry, I don't know what the good Doctor will say on this, but, you've addressed my worst nightmare as well.
Look at it this way. The first several notes of James Taylor's "Smilin' Face" are the same as "I'll Never Fall in Love Again" by Burt Bacharach. Didn't bother him, and I don't think he got sued over it. There are other examples of this that weren't as dramatic or went to court like the "My Sweet Lord/He's So Fine" thing.
And what if the song you think your original is from is some reeeeallly obscure song by some reeeeaaallly obscure band you heard only once on the radio back in 1967 cruising through northern Idaho at 3 am? You'd never be able to trace it!
My point is, I think you can do more harm to yourself by letting a good melody get away worrying that you've heard it before, rather that just writing the song. If someone confronts you and says: "Hey, that sounds too much like the 4th cut off the second side of that Doors bootleg" then you may want to rethink it, but go with your instincts.
Even McCartney, according to legend, woke up humming his "biggest hit" wondering where he'd heard it before. Certain of that fact, he hummed it for a bunch of people in the know. When they all drew a blank, he wrote "Yesterday" and all were happy. Which is a good idea. Ask some friends if they've heard a melody before. If they say they have, find out if they can direct you to the record. If they can't...chance it. And, you're probably safe in any case unless your song starts getting considerable airplay.
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#1626210 - 10/10/00 10:02 AM
Re: Ripping stuff off you didn't know you ripped-off
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Anonymous
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Like you guys, I've asked myself the same question numerous times after writing a new song. I figure there's only 12 tones to work with and only so many ways they fit together to form appealing results to the western ear. I simply quit worrying about it. If it's a blatant ripoff, that's one thing, if it's an honest attempt at a pleasant sounding original idea, then I say go for it. I get that, 'has it been done' feeling most often when I pull off an unually good melody, thinking that surely someone else has already laid claim to it.
But, if I let that stop me, I wouldn't ever write any songs at all.
Chris
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#1626211 - 10/10/00 11:02 AM
Re: Ripping stuff off you didn't know you ripped-off
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c.cash
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Now THAT'S good advice guys! 
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#1626212 - 10/10/00 04:39 PM
Re: Ripping stuff off you didn't know you ripped-off
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Anonymous
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Here's a funny story about that. You probably know the song "Breakdown" which was a big hit for Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers. They came up with that song in the studio and really dug it, but they realized, a couple of them being Animals fans, that the melody was a total rip of the Animals' "Cheating". Admittedly not one of their big hit songs, but still. So they changed a few things in it to make it different. But Phil Seymour, who participated in quite a few of the sessions, walked in and was appalled that they'd changed it. "So what if it sounds like the Animals? Leave it alone, it's great!" So they did.
A few years later I became aquainted with Eric Burdon, and he professed to be a big Petty fan. So I asked him: "What did you think of 'Breakdown' being a ripoff of 'Cheating?'"
Eric replied, "That's all right with me - it's a great record! And it's not like *I* haven't ripped off a couple of dozen blues singers, many of whom are dead and couldn't sue me even if they wanted to!"
I thought that was a pretty cool attitude (besides being funny)! And the Heartbreakers were relieved that he felt that way.
That said, I just about fell over when I heard John Fogerty's former publishing company tried to sue him for ripping HIMSELF off!
--Lee
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#1626213 - 10/11/00 02:26 AM
Re: Ripping stuff off you didn't know you ripped-off
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PlatEar1@aol.com_dup1
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I just about fell over when I heard John Fogerty's former publishing company tried to sue him for ripping HIMSELF off!
Just typical music business B.S. Too little music, too much business......
[This message has been edited by kudyba (edited 10-11-2000).]
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#1626214 - 10/14/00 05:50 PM
Re: Ripping stuff off you didn't know you ripped-off
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THE MIX FIX
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What was it Picaso said?
"Amateurs borrow, Professionals steal"
I know I've misquoted it a bit; Alpha, care to correct me?
------------------
Bob.
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#1626215 - 10/17/00 11:52 AM
Re: Ripping stuff off you didn't know you ripped-off
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Uprising@pacbell.net
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If you have a hit the chances are good someone will come out of the woodwork. A few years ago I had a big hit and a famous not so cool artist tried to say it was stolen from one of his songs. He had no case but just by sending a letter to the label threatening legal action claiming he came up with the I IV V progression and the pentatonic scale, he held up my royalties for a year.They say you're not a professional if you haven't been sued. If you know you've ripped something change it so when it's a hit you won't have to lie under oath. Remember it's only melody and lyrics not chords. If the chords are ripped you must acquit.
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#1626216 - 10/17/00 11:59 AM
Re: Ripping stuff off you didn't know you ripped-off
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Quin
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Hey - that almost rhymed 
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#1626217 - 10/18/00 09:57 AM
Re: Ripping stuff off you didn't know you ripped-off
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Doctor Al
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Actually gang, the statute for melody is 4 bars - you can rip off 3 1/2 bars of anything and be within the law. But waTCH OUT FOR THAT OTHER HALF A BAR !!!!
Melodies I've ripped off subconciously, but caught and adjusted before I finished the songs:
Sweet Caroline
Bus Stop
okay - i've 'fessed up
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#1626218 - 10/18/00 04:54 PM
Re: Ripping stuff off you didn't know you ripped-off
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Anonymous
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Three and a half bars, hunh? I dunno, Al. In practical terms you may be right, but I kinda doubt there's any statute law containing such a provision. From what I've read, the case law on copyright infringement tends to get more than a bit fuzzy.
For one thing, there's the question of access: I can write exactly the same melody as Paul McCartney, and it's not infringement, PROVIDED I can prove that I never heard his song.
My suggestion for songwriters would be, go ahead and write whatever curls your nose hairs. Record it, release it, and reap the benefits. If, later on, you're accused of infringement, listen to the alleged source and make up your own mind. Setting aside your wallet for a minute, if you think the other writer has a case, go ahead and offer to settle! It'll be a lot cheaper than fighting it in court, both financially and in terms of peace of mind. Why spend months in court when you could be using the time writing a dozen new tunes?
--Jim Aikin
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#1626219 - 10/18/00 11:40 PM
Re: Ripping stuff off you didn't know you ripped-off
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Tedster
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Funny you should mention "Bus Stop"...I came from a little town where just about everyone listened to both kinds of music, country *and* western, so what was going on in the pop world was a little more remote. When I was a kid I had that Hollies chorus going through my head, thought I'd made it up, and it was a couple of years before I heard "Bus Stop" and made the connection. Sometimes no matter how familiar the tune, the connection can be kinda fuzzy...
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#1626220 - 12/16/00 12:58 AM
Re: Ripping stuff off you didn't know you ripped-off
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moodkat@aol.com
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i am so happy i'm not the only one that has had that happen to them. i thought maybe i was crazy or something. some really good points were brought up. now i can continue to write without much paranoia.
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#1626222 - 12/17/00 03:39 AM
Re: Ripping stuff off you didn't know you ripped-off
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dinopop
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I think part of what makes a good melody is simplicity and a certain amount of familiarity, so by definition, if your a tune smith you're going to get that nagging feeling a lot.
What I enjoy though is when I keep worrying that I ripped something off and then realize what my melody reminds me of and that, while close, it's not really the same.
- Layne
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- Layne
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#1626223 - 12/20/00 12:04 AM
Re: Ripping stuff off you didn't know you ripped-off
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SvtYeahBaby!
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I may have some facts wrong here ( Bob? Fletcher" Alpha?) but wasn't it Sir George Martin himself who when Lennon ( or paul) asked him hoe he knew a song would be a hit answered, " it's sounds just enough like something I have heard before.."
Steve
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No, not the drummer
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#1626224 - 12/22/00 07:52 PM
Re: Ripping stuff off you didn't know you ripped-off
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BOOKUMDANO
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I will offer that every combination of note and pop chord combination was used up by 1959 (Heck why not 1959). Unless there is something blatantly similar between two recordings, I don't often hear about anyone getting upset. I hear stuff every day that amazes me in the "similarity" department. Even if you take a look at older recordings, the Spice Girls "Say You'll Be There" sounds to me just like "She's A Bad Mama Jamma" by Carl Carlton. Think about two old songs that might be chopped up to make that Celine Dion hit, "That's Just The Way It Is". Or three oldies that you can chop up to make "Breathe". I don't hear anyone mentioning these things ..or really caring. Heck, even the old Motown "It's the Same Old Song" is just a speeded up "Where Did Our Love Go". And what about the old Kenny Rogers "She Believes In Me". Listen to the chord changes and it sounds pretty much to me like the older Bread song "Lost Without Your Love". It's kinda fun to sometimes guess the possible origins of songs.
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#1626225 - 12/23/00 03:53 PM
Re: Ripping stuff off you didn't know you ripped-off
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dhmusic@mindspring.com
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Al, I thought the legal 'ripoff' standard was seven notes in sequence..not bars.
Example: George H lost the "My- Sweet- He's- So- Fine" case not in the first part, which goes on for umpteen bars (but is only three notes, well four really, counting the 'slur'), but when you add in the Chorus/Bridge/whatever it is,
"I really wanna see you.." =
"Cuz He's So Fine"...GOTCHA!
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#1626226 - 12/23/00 03:53 PM
Re: Ripping stuff off you didn't know you ripped-off
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dhmusic@mindspring.com
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Al, I thought the legal 'ripoff' standard was seven notes in sequence..not bars.
Example: George H lost the "My- Sweet- He's- So- Fine" case not in the first part, which goes on for umpteen bars (but is only three notes, well four really, counting the 'slur'), but when you add in the Chorus/Bridge/whatever it is,
"I really wanna see you.." =
"Cuz He's So Fine"...GOTCHA!
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#1626227 - 12/27/00 04:23 PM
Re: Ripping stuff off you didn't know you ripped-off
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Chip McDonald
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Everything takes from what comes before it, *EVERYTHING.
"New" music comes from cleverly disguised cross-pollenization. The best stuff comes from influences that are so difficult to distinguish one doesn't notice it at all - but it's still there.
Which is why music education is so important. I think what you've grown up listening to acts as a "filter" for what you create. Bad filtering either = bad output, or cloned music.
Every song, every melody has an antecedent. How obvious one allows it to be is the trick, which is why I think rock *groups* are so much more musically successful than individual writers: the potential for a chaotic non-linear mutation to occur is exponentially higher with 4 individuals working *together*. One guy is thinking in the back part of his mind "Zeppelin : D'yer Maker" while another guy is thinking "we're doing something like "U-2:Bullet the Blue Sky" and the singer thinks they're all doing "Sting:Moon over Bourbon St." - that yields a stranger outcome than one human is likely to achieve.
I wish someone would make a drum machine that had idiomatic styles programmed into it, and you could set it to "random" and then have it trigger off of elementary rhythmic elements in what you played... Seems like that would be technically possible, but tricky to implement properly. It would be a great thing to have for the above purpose, though: you get an idea, and instead of sitting here spending hours fooling with a stupid drum machine, you plug into it and let it try to "jam" to what you're doing, based on certain idiomatic tendencies: drummer A who likes busy 16th accents on the hat, sparse kick, drummer B who likes lots of ghost notes, backbeats and offbeat quarter-note hat, drummer C who tends to do 4 on the floor with toms keeping time... That sort of thing.
I suppose if I were Sting I could just hire Coliauta or somebody, BUT I'm poor. I'd pay a great sum of money for such a device somehow, though...
Wait, wasn't this supposed to be about ripping off music...? Oh well.
http://www.mp3.com/chipmcdonald
This message has been edited by Chip McDonald on 12-28-2000 at 01:41 AM
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www.chipmcdonald.com (tagline inlieu of having a representational page of downloadable music for the moment...) / "big ass windbag" - Bruce Swedien
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#1626228 - 12/30/00 02:44 AM
Re: Ripping stuff off you didn't know you ripped-off
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Doctor Al
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Chio - thats a great idea. sort of the opposite of drum loops. Call Alesis. They probasbly can build it for under $799.
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#1626229 - 01/01/01 05:22 PM
Re: Ripping stuff off you didn't know you ripped-off
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Chip McDonald
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Originally posted by Doctor Al:
Chio - thats a great idea. sort of the opposite of drum loops. Call Alesis. They probasbly can build it for under $799.
Or actually if they could come up with a "fill" algorithm that worked. A default feature that would examine what you've already programmed into the machine/sequencer; determine, based on hat pattern, kick, snare - an "appropriate" fill.
Or at least a ball park one. I can't afford a Roland or Yamaha pad kit for such a thing, but spend a silly amount of time programming ding bat fills - when I could sit down and do it "now", but... ahg.
Hmm. It would work procedurally as follows (just in case Alesis is listening; I may as well give this away, huh?). Once you were familiar with this system it would be a nice time saver I think:
You go to the point where you want the fill to begin in the pattern in step time, or real time, and press a "fill start" button to mark it.
Then you go to where you want it to end and mark that (which could default to the 1 of the following bar; or "never" for that special Keith Moon ending... ).
Then you could select from a basic style, which would be a preset based on the following parameters:
Basic note division - 1/8ths, 1/16ths, etc.
Note density ratio
Inflection - attack character
Dynamics - "ending" - decrescendo; "Jazz" gets louder in the middle of the fill; "Intro"; no variation from start to finish; "Ballad" - gets loud initially, softens ramps up.. etc..
Instrument - variation (this is where idiomatic styles would pay off; the "Copeland" preset would favor the high hat, the "Bonham" preset would favor snare>toms; the "Wackerman" preset would be anything goes..."
Hmm. I could goe deeper but this is all academic, so... Oh well. Oh yeah, this function would also automatically edit hat/ride/cymbals where appropriate to account for sticking realism.
Happy 21st Century.
http://www.mp3.com/chipmcdonald
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www.chipmcdonald.com (tagline inlieu of having a representational page of downloadable music for the moment...) / "big ass windbag" - Bruce Swedien
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