#1333092 - 01/09/01 11:21 AM
Combo Amp: 1x12 or 2x12?
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Anonymous
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I've been playing over thirty years. For the past 11years, I have used my Fender Twin (also known as the "Evil Twin" with the red knobs) for playing in a classic rock band. I want to buy a second amp with three channels that I can use in the studio and on stage. I am most interested in the Mesa Boogie Nomad, which is 55 watts. I would like to save my bad back by purchasing the 1x12. What will I lose or miss if it's not a 2x12? Any thoughts? Thank you.
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#1333093 - 01/09/01 03:05 PM
Re: Combo Amp: 1x12 or 2x12?
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Tedster
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Well, I used to play a Marshall 50 watt half stack. In the late 80s I switched to a Marshall 1x12 valve combo. The Marshall sound is still there, sorta, but those 4x12s really moved air. The 1x12 doesn't have near the presence or ambience of the larger cab. I do want a 2x12 extension cab. So, just my 2 cents...I'd go with the 2x12. Maybe not much of a difference recording (opinions?) as you generally mic one speaker, but, live, I'd want a 2x12.
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#1333094 - 01/09/01 03:42 PM
Re: Combo Amp: 1x12 or 2x12?
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Anonymous
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I have never really liked the sound of 2X12. They are loud, but I think lack character. I have always prefered 10's then 12's. But if I go with a multiple of speakers, then 10's is my first route. Only my opinion and the flavor of my ear.
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#1333095 - 01/09/01 03:49 PM
Re: Combo Amp: 1x12 or 2x12?
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Anonymous
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Originally posted by jef5f@hotmail.com: I have never really liked the sound of 2X12. They are loud, but I think lack character. I have always prefered 10's then 12's. But if I go with a multiple of speakers, then 10's is my first route. Only my opinion and the flavor of my ear. Thank you for your reply. The Nomad is available with 4x10. I have never tried this configuration. Tell me more!
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#1333096 - 01/09/01 03:53 PM
Re: Combo Amp: 1x12 or 2x12?
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miroslav
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I have a 100 watt Traynor tube amp from the early 70's along with a 4x12 cab. Sounded fine, just like most good 4x12 guitar rigs should.
But, by accidental experimentation, I tried that same amp head with an old Cerwin Vega 225 watt, V34 PA cabinet. I disconnected the horn and tweeters in the V34 and ran the full audio spectrum through just the 15" speaker...man...real nice tone, ballsy...chunka chunka...none of the high end screech and scratch.
Now, I actually like the sound of the single 15" in the V34 over the 4x12.
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miroslav - miroslavmusic.com"Just because it happened to you, it doesn't mean it's important."
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#1333097 - 01/09/01 09:51 PM
Re: Combo Amp: 1x12 or 2x12?
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Anonymous
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Originally posted by Dkleiner@nex-i.com: [QUOTE]Originally posted by jef5f@hotmail.com: [b]I have never really liked the sound of 2X12. They are loud, but I think lack character. I have always prefered 10's then 12's. But if I go with a multiple of speakers, then 10's is my first route. Only my opinion and the flavor of my ear. Thank you for your reply. The Nomad is available with 4x10. I have never tried this configuration. Tell me more!
I first came across a 4X10 back in the mid 80's. I bought a Holmes 4x10 cab. It was phenomenal. I was using a solid state Crate (it looked like the oak cab Boogie Mark I's). The general voice of the guitar works very, very well with 10's. I've had a Marshal with 4x10's. It was outstanding. I sold it to a friend who needed a bigger rig, when I was trying to find a smaller rig. I have Vox Pacemaker with a 10 and it is my best sounding amp. I recently tried a Line 6 Spider, with a 2x10 next to a 1x12. Everything is the same, except for the speakers, the 10's were, Hooooooo-boy. Carvin, and Peavey, and many others have amps with 4x10 cabs. They are the best sounding to me. Even Fender (which I don't know a lot about) produced an amp with 3 10's in the past. I'd suggest the 10's over anything. But remember, Mark Farner has used 15's all along.
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#1333098 - 01/09/01 11:02 PM
Re: Combo Amp: 1x12 or 2x12?
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cybergtr@bellsouth.net
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I too prefer the sound of a 4x12, however I got sick of hauling it around. If you're looking at the boogie line, and considering a 1x12, check out the wide body 1x12 combo's. I think the Nomad is available in that configuration. I just picked up a Boogie DC5 in that kind of cab and am really happy with it. It's plenty loud enough and still sounds pretty fat for a 1x12.
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#1333099 - 01/10/01 08:29 AM
Re: Combo Amp: 1x12 or 2x12?
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lrbreez
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I prefer 2X12 over 1X12. All my combos have been 2x12. I like 4x12 the best, then 2x12, then 4x1O. Buddy
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#1333100 - 01/10/01 08:02 PM
Re: Combo Amp: 1x12 or 2x12?
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Steven Denike
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Registered: 05/30/00
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Gibson makes a combo with 1x 12 AND 1 x 10, which is what I like... the softer the speaker material (paper) and the larger the cone (i.e. 12 in), the more 'flatulence' or distortion you'll get from the speaker. The smaller (i.e. 10 in) are more punchy.
I also asked Budda about this speaker combination, and said they'd be happy to implement it for a nominal surcharge in a custom combo.
By the way, if you've got some extra money, and a low wattage amp, try replacing a 12 in with a Celestion Blue . . . I put one in my Leslie speaker, and the whole thing juices me like nothing else.
But having a good backline introduces another problem: replacing the speaker reminded me of the joke about the old woman who went in to see her doctor. "Doctor, I have a problem... I fart ALL the time. They're odorless and silent, so no one else notices - but I'm worried that it might be an indicator of poor health.' The doctor prescribed her some medication, and told her to come back in two weeks. ------- Two weeks later, the old woman returned, and immediately complained, "Now my problem is worse than ever! My farts used to be silent and didn't smell, either...since I've been taking these pills, my farts smell TERRIBLE! I'm incredibly embarassed now, whenever I fart!" The Doctor looked in her ear, and said -- "Okay, now that we've fixed your sense of smell, let me see what can be done about your hearing..."
The moral of the story - when I finally heard what I really sounded like through a wonderful speaker, I couldn't pretend that my gear was holding me back.
Hope you enjoyed this poignant vignette.
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#1333101 - 01/11/01 09:43 PM
Re: Combo Amp: 1x12 or 2x12?
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InsightPro
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As far as combo amps go, I prefer the 2x12 set up, followed by the 1x12, and then anything with 10's. My reason behind this is that I find it easier to get a warm, rich tone out of a twelve inch speaker because of the amount of air that it moves. I also prefer to have two speakers rather than one when using effects. A chorus sounds so much better when run stereo through an amp. But that is just my opinion.
--Matt
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"Give a man a fish, and he'll eat for a day. Teach a man how to fish, and he'll spend all day in a boat drinking beer."
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#1333102 - 01/12/01 08:39 AM
Re: Combo Amp: 1x12 or 2x12?
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boozeguitar@hotmail.com
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I would prefer a 2x12 rig over any 10's...except the 4x10 set up. That's a nice configuration...I've played Peavey and Fender 4x10's and they all had tones I liked a lot.
At one time, I played through an old Univox PA head into a 1x12 Tubeworks extension cab. It had a panel you could remove to make it open backed or closed as needed, and that closed back let it push air quite nicely. On the other hand, I also at one point played through a Silvertone bass amp. Sounds weird, I know...but the cabinet housed a single 15" speaker and it kicked mucho butt. I love a good bottom end.
I personally would go with whatever your back can manage...you can always get a 2x12 extension cab if you need more push than a 1x12 will give, and can always find someone to lug it in and out of the building I'm sure. Those 4x10's aren't that light, but I do love them. Matter of fact, I'm thinking my next amp purchase is going to be a 50 watt half stack, with an open back 4x10 cabinet.
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#1333103 - 01/14/01 04:57 AM
Re: Combo Amp: 1x12 or 2x12?
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Chip McDonald
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Originally posted by Dkleiner@nex-i.com: Boogie Nomad, which is 55 watts. I would like to save my bad back by purchasing the 1x12.
That would be my first choice of an amp for a combo right now because of the channel switching versatility, the solo feature and overall sound. They had problems with preamp tubes going bad initially I think (the preamp is capable of ridiculously (but cool) gain), so if you spot one that is squeally as you crank the gain maybe you can get the dealer to drop the price and only have to switch out a 12ax7... Highly unlikely given it's a Boogie, but....
To me a 2x12 defeats the purpose of having a combo. I've never encountered a 2x12 combo that didn't give me shivers thinking about lifting it (particularly anything made by Mesa Boatweights.. I mean, Boogie).
If I *must* have a big cabinet sound I'll bring out a 4x12. Otherwise it's neither here nor there as far as I'm concerned.
Chances are if you're a good player no one in the crowd will leave the gig thinking "man, that guy sure played good but you know... I wish he just didn't have that 1x12 sound". http://www.mp3.com/chipmcdonald
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www.chipmcdonald.com (tagline inlieu of having a representational page of downloadable music for the moment...) / "big ass windbag" - Bruce Swedien
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#1333104 - 01/15/01 05:21 PM
Re: Combo Amp: 1x12 or 2x12?
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Uh Clem
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I think it is a package deal and overall design function - it all comes together or doesn't.
Also, you can't sit a combo on the floor and expect it to sound like a slant 4x12 Marshal Cab. Get that thing up in the air so you can hear it! The best stand I've found is another similar sized combo 
http://www.fender.com/amplification/guitaramps/pro_prosonic.html
Prosonic 60 watts, 2x10 - killer sound
makes an excellent stand for: http://www.marshallamps.com/images/products/rangeframe.htm
TSL601 1x12 combo - contrasting flavour, just as delicious.
serve together if you are really hungry.
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#1333105 - 01/16/01 04:02 AM
Re: Combo Amp: 1x12 or 2x12?
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lrbreez
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You can also get a 1 x 12 combo and get a 1 x 12 extension cabinet to set it on. That way you can still get the 2 x 12 sound. Buddy
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#1333106 - 01/16/01 07:34 AM
Re: Combo Amp: 1x12 or 2x12?
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Curve Dominant
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>>I would like to save my bad back by purchasing the 1x12.<<
My Peavey 1x12 feels about as heavy as my Laney 2x12. Go figga. It seems that the way you lift and carry an amp has more to do with how hard it is to carry than the actual weight. If ya don't have roadies carrying your gear, ya might wanna get one of those weight-lifter's belt chumpys. Remember to squat down low, and use your legs to lift, not your back. If ya bend over and pick that thing up you're gonna strain your back. Also: do some abdominal excercises at least 3 times a week to keep your mid-section strong.
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#1333107 - 01/19/01 06:11 AM
Re: Combo Amp: 1x12 or 2x12?
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virtual.ray@prodigy.net
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I spent about a month last Feb. trying every Boogie I could,and I tried the Nomad in 45,55,and 100 watt strengths with 1x12,2x12,and 4x10 speakers and I settled on the 45 watt Nomad combo with 2x12's.It sounded way better than the 1x12 to me and although I did like the 4x10,the 2x12 was more to my personal liking.Mine is only 78 lbs.,a bantam next to my next acquisition,a Mesa Diesel 4x10 bass cab weighing in at a respectable 131 lbs.!I think that in general the Nomad is the coolest amp Mesa has done in years,I've had mine almost a year and I'm still finding new sounds.
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#1333108 - 01/22/01 07:30 PM
Re: Combo Amp: 1x12 or 2x12?
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LukeWolfman
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I recently bought a Marshall Valvestate combo and it is a 1 x 12. I am VERY happy with it. It is compact and fairly light weight, yet it still has that great Marshall sound.
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#1333109 - 01/23/01 01:33 AM
Re: Combo Amp: 1x12 or 2x12?
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stratman_dup1
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Personally, I'm going to switch from a 2x12 to a 1x12 in the very near future. I currently use a Crate VC5212 and love the sound, BUT, due to a recent back injury I've decided a Crate Vintage Clug 30 watt 1x12 sounds quite good enough for me. If it's not loud enough I can always mic it . A 57's a lot easier to haul around than another 12 inch speaker.
I understand exactly where your coming from, it's not much fun gigging when you are DREADING loading up and tearing down.
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#1333110 - 01/23/01 01:47 AM
Re: Combo Amp: 1x12 or 2x12?
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Anonymous
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I came across an unusual combination of things. I have a friend that has some PA equipment we borrowed and used at Church. He has a PV 8-ch Unity mixer, a PV CS800 stereo power amp and for speakers a set of Sunn SR10 columns. 4 10" speakers in each. They clip together for handling and storage. The case is triangular. I plugged it into my Oliver head and voila, it was phenomenal. With the Boogie 1x12 and the Sunn 4x10 column speakers, WOW!!! When I ran the head through both of the Sunns, I couldn't believe it. I removed the cover to see what thye of speakers they contained. All the speakers were Sunn. The top two were designated for PA, but the bottom two were designated for Guitar. I could tell of no noticable difference between the two in looks or sound, only in labeling. If I can't wrestle these away from him, or find another set somewhere, I'm buying 4 (maybe 8) Sunn speakers and building myself a 4X10 column with a triangular cabinet. Whooooo-boy they sounded wonderful. If you couldn't tell, I liked what I heard.
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#1333111 - 01/27/01 03:31 AM
Re: Combo Amp: 1x12 or 2x12?
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JohnHHorvath
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I play through an old Fender Vibrolux with 2x10s, and have experimented by plugging in various extension speakers, etc. In the end, I agree with the guy who pointed out that no one is going to go hime thinking, "Gee, if only he was playing through a 4x12 cab..." Don't worry about playing for 1% of the audience. Most people aren't like Eric Johnson! They really can't hear the difference, and if they can, the room itself might obscure the difference. I find the room is as big a factor in my sound as anything else.
Having said that, I have to comment on something stevepow said. Get that combo up into the air! I makes all the difference in the world. Once it's up there, you can dial in a real tone, with a hell of a lot less volume, and you can actually HEAR it!
I play a lot in a restaurant/bar called Dick's Last Resort, but I also play a lot of casuals in catering halls, hotels, etc., and more and more, I run into these wooden high-chairs made for kiddies. They come in blonde and some kind of dark, stained wood, and they are the PERFECT amp stand for a combo! The amp straddles the rails across the top, and the actual seat portion is ideal as a shelf. I usually put my pre-amp/effector there, as well as my emergency string changing gear, a pack of cigarettes, and anything else that might come in handy. I find the dark, stained seats resonate with the low end better, so if I butt the guitar against the amp, I get the greatest controlled low-end feedback. The blonde high-chairs are better for high-end feedback and take a little more volume to get the sustain happening.
I know this sounds whack, but I swear by those high-chairs, and have been sorely tempted to "liberate" one!
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#1333112 - 01/27/01 03:45 AM
Re: Combo Amp: 1x12 or 2x12?
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JohnHHorvath
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I play through an old Fender Vibrolux with 2x10s, and have experimented by plugging in various extension speakers, etc. In the end, I agree with the guy who pointed out that no one is going to go hime thinking, "Gee, if only he was playing through a 4x12 cab..." Don't worry about playing for 1% of the audience. Most people aren't like Eric Johnson! They really can't hear the difference, and if they can, the room itself might obscure the difference. I find the room is as big a factor in my sound as anything else.
Having said that, I have to comment on something stevepow said. Get that combo up into the air! I makes all the difference in the world. Once it's up there, you can dial in a real tone, with a hell of a lot less volume, and you can actually HEAR it!
I play a lot in a restaurant/bar called Dick's Last Resort, but I also play a lot of casuals in catering halls, hotels, etc., and more and more, I run into these wooden high-chairs made for kiddies. They come in blonde and some kind of dark, stained wood, and they are the PERFECT amp stand for a combo! The amp straddles the rails across the top, and the actual seat portion is ideal as a shelf. I usually put my pre-amp/effector there, as well as my emergency string changing gear, a pack of cigarettes, and anything else that might come in handy. I find the dark, stained seats resonate with the low end better, so if I butt the guitar against the amp, I get the greatest controlled low-end feedback. The blonde high-chairs are better for high-end feedback and take a little more volume to get the sustain happening.
I know this sounds whack, but I swear by those high-chairs, and have been sorely tempted to "liberate" one!
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#1333113 - 01/27/01 04:42 AM
Re: Combo Amp: 1x12 or 2x12?
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Chip McDonald
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by JohnHHorvath: out that no one is going to go hime thinking, "Gee, if only he was playing through a 4x12 cab..." Don't worry about playing for 1% of the audience. Most people aren't like Eric Johnson!
That was me. The thing about Eric, is that most people think something is wrong when they hear what his sound is actually like coming out of his cabinet direct...
Having said that - last night I sat in with a band in a resonant room 150x30, with 30 foot ceilings. Long decay, with a medium dense sound. In that environment, *anything* will sound like Eric Johnson if you know what you're doing.
But I'm watching a videotape that was made of it, and I'm sort of in an internal debate.
A friend that plays guitar in the band runs through a Tube Screamer into a Twin, and is really into Eric. I brought my "portable" rig (which is a joke: a 90lb. Mesa Boogie preamp/power amp, and a pair of 12's).
Listening to the tape, I hear his sound and think "well, that's certainly good enough." The guy tends to play like Eric, and the amp combination works fine in that context. So why bother with anything else?
Then I listen to my own rig, and I'm struck by how noticable a difference there is. I run that setup because I like how you can manipulate the timbre by the way you play, but I didn't think it was that big of a difference...
But on this tape you can really hear things I thought wouldn't translate in such a room. Instead of one "good" sound, I could do the Eric pseudo-Dumble/Fender thing, but make it more Marshall-like as well, or change the overtone balance. It was drastically noticeable. Sitting on a note a certain way makes it sound differently...
... and the whole time I'm up on stage thinking "well... it really sucked hauling that rig in here, I should just bring a combo; this is silly, nobody can hear that I'm doing these things except myself and the guys on stage. What's the point...?".
So now I'm sitting here thinking... maybe it *is* worth it? If a video camera mic picked up a difference 40 feet away - certainly it's worth bothering with?
My original point had to do with the simple execution of notes, not the *way* the notes were played. I dunno. I suppose if I had the luxury of doing long sound checks, and maybe a roadie... but gigs would be more fun if I didn't have to break my back and go in and out of the club to bring in parts of my rig. When I've done little gigs with a combo it *was* liberating mentally, I didn't miss the fancier rig, but was it for the better overall? Maybe I missed influencing that one important person that ... oh well. Ahg..
the difference. I find the room is as big a factor in my sound as anything else.
I like a big resonant room, though - and a resonant stage is even better: the Georgia Theatre in Athens has a nice ringy one that makes an amp sound warm, helps out below 100hz; playing the room itself is kind of part of the instrument to me.
http://www.mp3.com/chipmcdonald
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www.chipmcdonald.com (tagline inlieu of having a representational page of downloadable music for the moment...) / "big ass windbag" - Bruce Swedien
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#1333114 - 01/27/01 08:06 PM
Re: Combo Amp: 1x12 or 2x12?
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JohnHHorvath
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>>If a video camera mic picked up a difference 40 feet away - certainly it's worth bothering with?<<
But consider: Does the video cam's mic favor certain frequencies? Does it accentuate or ignore frequencies?
You can drive yourself crazy trying to figure out EXACTLY what you sound like! Even if you were standing 50' out front using a wireless unit, I'm not sure you can objectively hear yourself while you're playing. You just about have to hand the guitar to someone else and concentrate on listening.
But then, you gotta wonder, is there a tonal difference coming from HIS fingers? Does he sound like ME?
Aaarrgghh!!
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#1333115 - 01/28/01 03:34 AM
Re: Combo Amp: 1x12 or 2x12?
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Chip McDonald
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by JohnHHorvath: But consider: Does the video cam's mic favor certain frequencies? Does it accentuate or ignore frequencies?
No, I do not think so. I'm talking about timbral changes over time.. hmm. I was about to elaborate, but I can't think of a very specific example in popular music, hmm.
I like subtle timbral shifts from changing attack, Jeff Beck sort of things but maybe moreso. Like making a chord brighter by feathering the way you strum, for instance. Lightening the pressure on vibrato so the note will thin out a certain way... The Boogie rig lets you exaggerate stuff like that more (at the expense of forcing you to be more consistent overall).
playing. You just about have to hand the guitar to someone else and concentrate on listening.
Yeah, but then they're probably not going to play it the same...
But then, you gotta wonder, is there a tonal difference coming from HIS fingers? Does he sound like ME?
I'm really talking about "from the fingers" phenomena I suppose. It also occurs to me I'm talking about something pretty arcane and pointless to discuss with words... Ack.
Anyone have any extra serotonin they don't need?
http://www.mp3.com/chipmcdonald
_________________________
www.chipmcdonald.com (tagline inlieu of having a representational page of downloadable music for the moment...) / "big ass windbag" - Bruce Swedien
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#1333116 - 01/28/01 04:30 PM
Re: Combo Amp: 1x12 or 2x12?
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SteveRB
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My two cents on Eric Johnson. I know echo and delay are important aspects of the sound he gets on his albums, but live it robs him of tone. His leads would have more presense if he backed the echo down some. I saw him in concert last week, enjoyed it a lot.
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#1333117 - 01/28/01 04:30 PM
Re: Combo Amp: 1x12 or 2x12?
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SteveRB
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My two cents on Eric Johnson. I know echo and delay are important aspects of the sound he gets on his albums, but live it robs him of tone. His leads would have more presense if he backed the echo down some. I saw him in concert last week, enjoyed it a lot.
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